Bible verses be treated as conditional instead of absolute statements. True or false?

BobRyan

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Bible verses be treated as conditional statements instead of absolute statements in order to resolve the apparent contradictions between different verses in the Bible.

It depends.

We know there will be a second coming as Christ stated in John 14:1-3 states - that is not "conditional" it is a fact. But WHEN it will happen - that is conditional as Matt 24 points out "this Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world... and THEN shall the end come".
 
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BobRyan

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Matthew 25:31-46 is identical and coextensive with the final judgment in heaven, which is subsequently mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15, but they are two separate events.

Why?

Because Matthew 25:31 has specifically mentioned the "Son of Man" being the Judge of entire nations.

It means that God will Judge the entire world as a HUMAN, which means that the people to be Judged are also HUMAN.

In other words, they are to be Judged whilst still alive on the earth, which means that this Judgement is in the here and now, whilst Christ is still alive on the earth.

Rev 14:6-7 shows that the judgment in heaven happens while evangelism is going on - on Earth.

6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven with an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and sea and springs of waters.”

Later in Rev 14:14-20 you see the end of the world


=====================

Same thing presented in Daniel 7 --

Vs 1-8 -- the rise and fall of 4 main world empires then more things happen - then the vs 9-10 judgment in heaven ... but the chapter says that the judgment did not start until shortly after a period of 1260 years of "dark ages" happened, and it says that once that judgment completes - the second coming happens.

Dan 7
23 “This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth and trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time.

(3.5 years = 42 months =1260 days = 1260 years because apocalyptic timelines all use day-for-year as we see in Daniel 9 )


26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

Once judgment completes

27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’

28 “At this point the revelation ended. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts were greatly alarming me and my face became pale, but I kept the matter to myself.”
 
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Mark Quayle

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So, you think there are different levels in hell as Dante suggested?
Not really. Not like his idea. For one thing, I doubt there will be any interaction between persons. I'm pretty sure it will be very lonely, if such a concept even has merit for such a place. Nor will Satan rule there; he is under just punishment also. "Reserved for the Devil and his angels" doesn't mean he rules there, but that it was made for their punishment. I don't really even think our current concept of the passage of time applies there.
 
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Bouan Philippe

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Rev 14:6-7 shows that the judgment in heaven happens while evangelism is going on - on Earth.

6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven with an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and sea and springs of waters.”

Later in Rev 14:14-20 you see the end of the world


=====================

Same thing presented in Daniel 7 --

Vs 1-8 -- the rise and fall of 4 main world empires then more things happen - then the vs 9-10 judgment in heaven ... but the chapter says that the judgment did not start until shortly after a period of 1260 years of "dark ages" happened, and it says that once that judgment completes - the second coming happens.

Dan 7
23 “This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth and trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time.

(3.5 years = 42 months =1260 days = 1260 years because apocalyptic timelines all use day-for-year as we see in Daniel 9 )


26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

Once judgment completes

27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’

28 “At this point the revelation ended. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts were greatly alarming me and my face became pale, but I kept the matter to myself.”
As concerning Daniel 7vv26-27 they are consecutive verses.

Are you suggesting that a situation equivalent to regime change would happen within the same country, or do they represent different countries?

Do you think that the Second Coming of Christ will happen within the lifetime of this present generation (in the next 30 to 40 years)?
 
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BobRyan

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As concerning Daniel 7vv26-27 they are consecutive verses.

Are you suggesting that a situation equivalent to regime change would happen within the same country, or do they represent different countries?

Do you think that the Second Coming of Christ will happen within the lifetime of this present generation (in the next 30 to 40 years)?

yes I think it will happen in the next 10 to 20 years (just my opinion).

The 4th empire in Dan 7 - is pagan Rome. It divided into 10 kingdoms. Ten horns. Something else happened after that - and then there was 1260 years of "dark ages".

Dan 7
24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time.

In Heaven:
26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

That destruction element in vs 26 is world wide, but the court sits and judgment is conducted (as we see in vs 9-10)



second coming of Christ (see details in Matt 24, 1 Thess 4:13 and Rev 19) - this is world wide
27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’

28 “At this point the revelation ended. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts were greatly alarming me and my face became pale, but I kept the matter to myself.”
 
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Ceallaigh

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No, because the people who wrote it are still human, and they can still make mistakes like any humans.

It doesn't reflect on God's perfection at all, but it's indicative of their human nature which is imperfect.

This lecture by a PhD theologian covers what you're saying:

 
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Bouan Philippe

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yes I think it will happen in the next 10 to 20 years (just my opinion).

The 4th empire in Dan 7 - is pagan Rome. It divided into 10 kingdoms. Ten horns. Something else happened after that - and then there was 1260 years of "dark ages".

Dan 7
24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time.

In Heaven:
26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

That destruction element in vs 26 is world wide, but the court sits and judgment is conducted (as we see in vs 9-10)



second coming of Christ (see details in Matt 24, 1 Thess 4:13 and Rev 19) - this is world wide
27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’

28 “At this point the revelation ended. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts were greatly alarming me and my face became pale, but I kept the matter to myself.”
Please clarify this. Where is the epicentre of God's Kingdom? Which country are we talking about?

Is it a country chosen by Jesus Christ, or by the Court that sits in judgment in Daniel 7:26 (because the latter is clearly a human court, which is not a heavenly court at all, but such an arrangement contradicts God's supposed sovereignty in Romans 9:21)?

God is supposed to be in charge, not the Privy Council, which has no authority to make such momentous decisions concerning the actual epicentre of God's global empire.
 
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Bouan Philippe

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It depends.

We know there will be a second coming as Christ stated in John 14:1-3 states - that is not "conditional" it is a fact. But WHEN it will happen - that is conditional as Matt 24 points out "this Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world... and THEN shall the end come".
So, the Second Coming of Christ is not even guaranteed to happen within the lifetime of this present generation?

Because you are telling me that it all depends on God's cooperation with Man, not the opposite. And therefore, the Kingdom of Christ is a man made social construct, which is not determined by God at all.

Obviously, I utterly reject this proposition because it goes against the Bible to suggest that Man is supposedly in charge, but God is not in charge àt all.
 
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Clare73

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Matthew 25:31-46 is identical and coextensive with the final judgment in heaven, which is subsequently mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15, but they are two separate events.

Why?

Because Matthew 25:31 has specifically mentioned the "Son of Man" being the Judge of entire nations.

It means that God will Judge the entire world as a HUMAN, which means that the people to be Judged are also HUMAN.

In other words, they are to be Judged whilst still alive on the earth, which means that this Judgement is in the here and now, whilst Christ is still alive on the earth.
At the final judgment all will be alive on earth after the general resurrection of all mankind.

Resurrection-->rapture-->second coming of Christ with his saints-->final judgment on earth-->consignment of all to eternal destiny.
 
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BobRyan

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Please clarify this. Where is the epicentre of God's Kingdom? Which country are we talking about?

"My kingdom is not of this world"

John 18:
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Dan 2
31 “You, O king, were watching and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary radiance, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome. 32 The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its chest and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, and its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 You continued watching until a stone was broken off without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay, and crushed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed to pieces all at the same time, and they were like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the entire earth.

44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms

That event is still future - it is the 2nd coming of Christ - He will show up with the armies of heavens coming down out of heaven.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”


Matt 24:
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


Is it a country chosen by Jesus Christ, or by the Court that sits in judgment in Daniel 7:26 (because the latter is clearly a human court, which is not a heavenly court at all,

Neither one.

It is in heaven -

9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.

That court is in heaven --

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a son of man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 And to Him was given dominion,
Honor, and a kingdom
,
So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;

God the Son - goes to God the Father (in heaven) -- to that court room in heaven and its result is to define the kingdom - the saved vs the lost -- here the saints are in Christ's kingdom and the wicked will be destroyed.

That is God "in charge" but it is also God demonstrating that He is both just and merciful (Rom 3) exposing the details in record books to the court that He set up to review all the cases.

Rom 9
21 Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles

Rom 9 says that God shows great mercy and patience even with those whom He knows to ultimately reject the gospel - and "why" ? He does so because it demonstrates His mercy to the saints - to those who are "objects of mercy". When the saints see their own precious lost loved ones, children, parents, dearest friends treated with such great kindness and patience and mercy by God "who is not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
 
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BobRyan

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Judgment takes place in heaven Dan 7:9-10 - while the saints are being persecuted on Earth - Dan 7:25-26

24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

And while that judgment is going on in heaven - the Gospel is being proclaimed on Earth Rev 14:6-7
Rev 14:
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven with an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and sea and springs of waters.”
 
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Bouan Philippe

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"My kingdom is not of this world"

John 18:
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Jesus was talking about the dominion of Satan who was the Prince and Ruler of this world during the 1st century AD (and still is), but God's Kingdom is still an earthly Kingdom to be established on the earth, as attested by His future establishment of the new heaven and EARTH in Revelation 21.

Neither one.

It is in heaven -

Again, God's Kingdom is both an earthly and spiritual one, but I don't see how you can say that His Kingdom is only in heaven, but not on the earth as well. Because his kingdom is the new heaven and earth in Revelation 21. This particular point is unequivocal and cannot be contested, because that is precisely what the Scripture says.
 
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BobRyan

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Jesus was talking about the dominion of Satan who was the Prince and Ruler of this world (and still is), but God's Kingdom is still an earthly Kingdom to be established on the earth, as attested by His establishment of the new heaven and EARTH in Revelation 21.

Rev 21 is after the 1000 years of Rev 20 which is after the second coming of Rev 19. It is in Rev 19 that all the kingdoms of Earth end - all armies destroyed - all kings / rulers destroyed in Rev 19 at the 2nd coming.

There is no persecution of the saints going on at the 2nd coming or during the 1000 years or anywhere in Rev 20 or Rev 21. And also no evangelism going on then.

But in Rev 14:6-7 we see that world wide Gospel evangelism is going on while the hour of God's judgment is fully come.

And in Dan 7:25-27 we see that the saints are persecuted until that judgment is completed - and only then do you see the second coming of Rev 19.
 
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BobRyan

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Again, God's Kingdom is both an earthly and spiritual one, but I don't see how you can say that His Kingdom is only in heaven, but not on the earth as well.

Jesus says His kingdom is not of this world - but as you point out it WILL be including this world starting with the Rev 19 second coming where He destroys all the wicked.

And in Rev 21 after the 1000 years he creates a new earth - where clearly His kingdom is on Earth as well.

As Matt 5 points out the saints "inherit the earth" but that is only at the Rev 21 event.

Because his kingdom is the new heaven and earth in Revelation 21. This particular point is unequivocal and cannot be contested, because that is precisely what the Scripture says.

True.
 
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BobRyan

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At the final judgment all will be alive on earth after the general resurrection of all mankind.

Resurrection-->rapture-->second coming of Christ with his saints-->final judgment on earth-->consignment of all to eternal destiny.

In Rev 20 there is the final judgment - after the 2nd resurrection.

But that does not include the saints - because "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 - in the judgment that happens before the 2nd coming Dan 7:24-26 and while Gospel preaching is going on - on Earth Rev 14:6-7
 
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BobRyan

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So, the Second Coming of Christ is not even guaranteed to happen within the lifetime of this present generation?

Because you are telling me that it all depends on God's cooperation with Man, not the opposite. .

"Looking for AND hastening"

2 Pet 3:12 "looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

God knows the end from the beginning - no matter how complex/complicated that might be.
 
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Clare73

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In Rev 20 there is the final judgment - after the 2nd resurrection.

But that does not include the saints - because "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 - in the judgment that happens before the 2nd coming Dan 7:24-26 and while Gospel preaching is going on - on Earth Rev 14:6-7
'The NT teaches only one resurrection of bodies.

The first resurrection of the prophetic riddle of Rev 20 is spiritual, to eternal life in the new birth (John 3:5).
 
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BobRyan

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'The NT teaches only one resurrection of bodies.

It has two.

The "first resurrection" is that of Rev 20:1-5 that is part of the Rev 19 "second coming" sequence. In John 5 he calls it the "resurrection of life"

then after that - there is the second resurrection where the wicked come to life and are judged. In John 5 - he calls that the "resurrection of Judgment". John says in Rev 20 "the REST of the DEAD did not come to life UNTIL after the 1000 years" --- and so they are raised in the second resurrection



John 5
8 Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
 
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Jipsah

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Why is God's pronouncement of "Everlasting hell" (Matthew 25:41) not the same punishment as the "eternal" sin in Mark 3 and Matthew 12?
Hell is eternal, sinners aren't.
 
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Clare73

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It has two.
Only according to your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles, which interpretation is contrary to authoritative NT teaching.
The "first resurrection" is that of Rev 20:1-5 that is part of the Rev 19 "second coming" sequence. In John 5 he calls it the "resurrection of life"
In the prophetic riddle of Rev 20:1-5, that would be the NT resurrection of the spirit into eternal life at the new birth (John 3:5).
then after that - there is the second resurrection where the wicked come to life and are judged. In John 5 - he calls that the "resurrection of Judgment". John says in Rev 20 "the REST of the DEAD did not come to life UNTIL after the 1000 years" --- and so they are raised in the second resurrection
NT teaching is not in agreement with this.

That is uncertain personal interpretation of a prophetic riddle (Numbers 12:8), which uncertain interpretation is not in agreement with certain and authoritative NT teaching, where there is only one resurrection of mankind's bodies; i.e., the resurrection at the end of time, when those in Christ will rise to eternal life, and the rest of mankind will rise to their judgment of condemnation.

Show where these two bodily resurrections are found in authoritative NT teaching.
John 5
8 Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
 
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