JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

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RBPerry

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Studyman, the gentiles that came under that old covenant were those who joined up with Israel. Stop and think about something, the rest of the world knew nothing about the ten commandments.

What do you think it means that God will write on our hearts?
To me that means he will give us a conscious to know right from wrong, good and evil. Does anyone question that we should love God with all our hearts and our neighbor as our selves, or we shouldn't steal, murder, adultery. The Holy Spirit puts on our hearts those things.
If I do something that is wrong, I know it immediately, why, because the Holy Spirit will immediately let me know. That is the law being written on our hearts.

I could go through the bible and pick out scriptures that would build any kind of dogma I wanted by pulling select verses without looking at the context of the entire book or letter.
 
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Studyman

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Once again all I see is criticism of a perfectly good post that in no way warrants such criticism. You are only discrediting yourself trying to critique my post. By the way, in order for any man who was not an Israelite it was law that they become circumcised before being able to partake of Passover. Most believe it also pertained to any of the rites. Another point as long as I am critiquing your post, the Israelites were not considered or called Jews until much later, I believe in the book of Ezra.

No correction is pleasant. You made your statements, the Bible contradicts them. It isn't my fault.

Yes, God requires Circumcision, as it is to this day.

Deut. 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

The Law is Spiritual.

1 Cor. 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Does God care for loose skin of the natural penis?

Or did HE write the Circumcision Law for OUR (New Covenant Believers) Sake's.

What Law do you believe was not written for our Sake's?

Yes, they were called Jews in the NT, Israelite's in the Old. I stand corrected.
 
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Leaf473

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I am sure we have been through this verse a more than once, but I am willing to go through it again, if it helps.
We definitely did talk about this before on a different thread.

If I recall correctly, you responded to the question but didn't directly answer it.

So, to keep us from going in circles again, what is your answer?

You also can't take this one verse by itself, so if you really want to understand the meaning you need the whole passage.

Mathew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
I agree that we have to look at the whole passage. So, looking at the whole passage, is Jesus giving one "until" condition or two?

Most believe this passage means that the law has been set aside and no longer valid "fulfilled" but after reading the whole passage do you think that is what Jesus is saying? To me it says the opposite because 1. heaven and earth are still here and 2. sin is everywhere. We are told this about sin: 1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

We are told in Isaiah Jesus came to magnify God's laws not "remove" Isaiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. If you read on in Mathew Jesus did just that when He said murder begins in the heart Mathew 5:21-36 Not only does Jesus not want us to physically murder, we should not even have those thoughts in our hearts or minds.

Back to the passage in question Jesus said: Mathew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Does this sound like Jesus is giving a license to sin or that the law has been "fulfilled" so we no longer have to obey? That would seem like a huge contradiction from what Jesus is saying and what He teaches us. John 14:15, John 15:10

This is what I think the scripture means, what do you think it means?
Now we are at kind of a discussion crossroads.

I'm happy to answer all of your questions and deal with all of those wonderful scriptures. However, if I do that right now, I can almost guarantee that we will go in circles again.

My suggestion is:
How about if you pick a particular, exact question that you believe will take us in a direction and not a circle. And I will be happy to answer that question :)
 
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Leaf473

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These debates have become circular arguments that are going nowhere. I think people need to be able to look outside the bible as well as scripture. What I see here is people stuck in their own dogma and unwilling to consider anything that doesn't fit their beliefs.
Is this the kind of outside of the box thinking you're talking about?

When Paul is on Mars Hill, he doesn't quote any scriptures. (Actually, he quotes one or more Greek poets.)

Paul was aware that God had commanded the building of a special tent for him, and that other scripture spoke of God living in the temple. But to the Athenians, he says that God doesn't live in temples made by humans.

So, proceeding with that same style of reasoning, we read in the scriptures that God sanctified the seventh day.

But that was back when people thought the Earth was flat. Today we know that days do not start and end at the same time around the world. If you live at one of the poles, sunset to sunset may be many months.

And if you were to climb on a jet and fly west, you could avoid experiencing sunset indefinitely.

I think a reasonable conclusion from all this is that God told the Israelites about the Sabbath so that they (and then later the rest of us) could come to a place where they could experience God's presence 24/7.
 
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Bob S

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Bob, I agree with you otherwise I wouldn't be here. I suppose what I was looking for, and have been looking for a long time, is a little more open mindedness by the minority of Christian thinking.
Hi RB, By God's grace I was saved from the legalism found in some of the doctrines I once believed. I give many thanks to people like you who opened my mind and heart to receive the truths found in God's Word. I am amazed at the testimonies given by those that have likewise heard the truth and are choosing to leave SDAism. Two weekends ago my grandson brought three of his friends for the week-end. All were raised in SDA homes. All of them are very leery of what they have been taught and are in the questioning mode. Saturday they were out on our waverunners having a great time. This is happening to young people every place, so I have heard. There is a new group of young formers on Facebook who are speaking out about their new found faith. They are not falling blindly for all they were taught and are eagerly listening to those who have left before them. I am thrilled to see them come to a new relationship with Jesus and thrilled to be part of the movement.
 
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RBPerry

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Well I don't know if I've opened anyone's mind in respect to legalism. I just came across a passage this morning during my devotional time. Kind of goes along with the discussions here.

Romans 2:14-15 (NIV)(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
 
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Bob S

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Is this the kind of outside of the box thinking you're talking about?

When Paul is on Mars Hill, he doesn't quote any scriptures. (Actually, he quotes one or more Greek poets.)

Paul was aware that God had commanded the building of a special tent for him, and that other scripture spoke of God living in the temple. But to the Athenians, he says that God doesn't live in temples made by humans.

So, proceeding with that same style of reasoning, we read in the scriptures that God sanctified the seventh day.

But that was back when people thought the Earth was flat. Today we know that days do not start and end at the same time around the world. If you live at one of the poles, sunset to sunset may be many months.

And if you were to climb on a jet and fly west, you could avoid experiencing sunset indefinitely.

I think a reasonable conclusion from all this is that God told the Israelites about the Sabbath so that they (and then later the rest of us) could come to a place where they could experience God's presence 24/7.
Hi Leaf, your post reminded me of my study on the International Date Line and God's giving the Sabbath to the Israelites near Mt Sinai. (I say near because it was given them before they reached Mt Sinai.) As the Sabbath observers moved Westward the sunset came later than at Sinai, so to keep the command they waited until sun set at their location. Centuries past and this method continued to work until the International Date Line was imposed on mankind. At that point in time, it was not the people living in the area of Mt Sinai who began the sunset Sabbath command, it was the people around New Zealand, then Australia and westward who started the command. That is how it stands to this day. No one seems to care and they go on their merry way. Recently the island of Samoa changed the date line to the East of the island that caused a great crisis in the SDA church there. Left up to their own choosing they are now worshipping on Sunday.
 
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Bob S

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No correction is pleasant. You made your statements, the Bible contradicts them. It isn't my fault.
No, it is you that contradicts them. Your down playing the circumcision of Gentiles in order to become Israelites in order to bolster your false charges is heard and dismissed as being more false rhetoric.

They were call Jews in the Old Testament too just at a later date.
 
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pasifika

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One reason the Christ became a Man in the person of Jesus, and "dwelt among us" was, Well, here, I'll let HIM Tell you.

Matt. 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

This begs the question "Why were they lost"? The Christ also inspired the answer to this question.

Jer. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

So what did the Shepherds do that caused God's People to go astray?

Jesus said:

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Jeremiah also confirms that Jesus is Speaking Biblical Truth.

Jer. 5:30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; 31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

So Bob, one reason why Jesus came was to save men from the religious philosophies of false preachers. As HE Warns "Take Heed no man deceive you".

So let's take a look at your sermon here, and compare it with the actual teaching of the Holy Scriptures, as Jesus did to show who is in Him, and who are preaching doctrines of men.

"For everyone either participating or just lurking I would like to, once again, reiterate that all of the laws of the old covenant, the ones given at Sinai, were intended to serve only those who heard the requirements of the covenant and their posterity."

So what does the God of the Bible teach?

Ex. 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

And again;

IS. 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

So Bob, what you preach, and what God preaches are 2 different things here. Why are you leading people away from God's Word by preaching things about Him which are not true?

So let's look at the rest of your preaching here.

"All the laws of that covenant likewise ended. I don't care how the laws of the covenant were written, they all ended."

So let's see what the God of the Bible says about your religious philosophy regarding the broken Covenant.

Ex. 32:19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.

OK Bob, here is the "Broken Covenant", the Covenant with God was broken, the Laws destroyed. So according to you, there was "NO MORE LAW". "all" THE law WAS DESTROYED.

So lets see what happened according to the God of the Bible.

EX. 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

So Bob, what you posted here is in direct opposition to what God said. Your words and HIS Word's are opposite. According to the God of the Bible, These Tablets of Stone are still unbroken. The Covenant renewed. Except this time God ADDED temporary atonement Laws until the SEED should come. Why do you feel the desire to preach against the very God you claim to believe? I guess this would also be a good question for the Shepherds and Pharisees who also led people astray.

This is the very reason why Jesus said HE came as a man in the first place, to save men who were "led astray" by self proclaimed preachers who preach a vision of their own mind.

I'll continue in another post..
Hello Studyman, I think it a great mistake on your behalf to say that "a broken covenant "and " law destroyed ", therefore no law..

Try and look at Romans 2:14...which states that the Gentiles who do not have the law, do things by nature which requires by the law and they are law for themselves, even though they do Not have the law...

But there is something call "mind" and "conscience" you and I both have it...

Thanks
 
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RBPerry

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Is this the kind of outside of the box thinking you're talking about?

I think a reasonable conclusion from all this is that God told the Israelites about the Sabbath so that they (and then later the rest of us) could come to a place where they could experience God's presence 24/7.

We can seek God's presence anytime, that doesn't mean we won't have dry spells in our relationship with Him. Time and place makes little or no difference.

When I think of looking outside the box I'm talking about science, and things that we once thought were absolutes and we now know aren't. When I say I believe God is talking to us today but we aren't listening I wonder if experiences like near death experiences are attempting to teach us things that we have missed. I believe the apocrypha's can also enlighten us to truths we didn't realize or understand before. I fall short of calling them prophetic because there are also many controversial issues that are way outside of orthodox beliefs. I've had two main focuses in my life outside of Christianity, that is psychology and nutrition. What I believed about both subjects in the 1970s verse what I now know is drastically different. Is it so hard to believe that God may be trying to get our attention and we just aren't listening?
 
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RBPerry

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Two weekends ago my grandson brought three of his friends for the week-end. All were raised in SDA homes. All of them are very leery of what they have been taught and are in the questioning mode. Saturday they were out on our waverunners having a great time. This is happening to young people every place, so I have heard. There is a new group of young formers on Facebook who are speaking out about their new found faith. They are not falling blindly for all they were taught and are eagerly listening to those who have left before them. I am thrilled to see them come to a new relationship with Jesus and thrilled to be part of the movement.

I have seen some of that myself since I have done a great deal of counseling. With young people sometimes they may throw the baby out with the bathwater and that is equally dangerous.
I'm dealing with a young man right now, ex Mormon and now questions if there is even a God. He is a graduate student and has fallen victim to secular educational bigotry's towards Christian beliefs. What is amazing about him is he is an Eagle Scout, did two years missions in Asia, and was a devout Mormon until one of the Mormon prophets said handicapped people were cursed by God. His mother is severely handicapped. He is incredibly intelligent and knows the scriptures very well. The one thing that I have him looking at is NDE, he needs to understand that there is a loving God that loves him. Once we cross that bridge we can move forward with what God's plans may be for his life.
 
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Studyman

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Studyman, the gentiles that came under that old covenant were those who joined up with Israel. Stop and think about something, the rest of the world knew nothing about the ten commandments.

Joined up with Israel???? What did Israel Do for Gentiles? Don't you mean the Gentiles who were covered by the Covenant of Abraham, were those who joined themselves to the God of Abraham?

What do you think it means that God will write on our hearts?

God's Law was always supposed to be in the hearts and minds of His People.

Duet 10:45 And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel:

46 And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law.

But the Shepherds who were charged with sharing God's Laws with the people corrupted His Laws, Despised His Laws. So God provided that we should never have to rely on another carnal man to hear God's Words again "After those days". And look, both you and I have the Oracles of God in our own home, in our own mind, and in our own hearts. Some believe, some don't, But there they are. No longer are we required to find a preacher in some temple made of wood and stone to read God's Words to us, we can see for ourselves.

To me that means he will give us a conscious to know right from wrong, good and evil.

If this were true, then why does Jesus warn us over and over about religious men deceiving us? It is a popular religious philosophy of this world that Jesus does everything for us.

This is not Biblically true.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Jesus doesn't "deny myself" for me, HE doesn't "Take up my Cross" for me, HE doesn't "follow Himself" for me. He also doesn't "BELIEVE" for me. He has provided everything we need, and if we believe, we will be "doers" of His instruction, not hearers only.

Does anyone question that we should love God with all our hearts and our neighbor as our selves, or we shouldn't steal, murder, adultery. The Holy Spirit puts on our hearts those things.

In my understanding, the Holy Spirit doesn't teach men to reject Commandments of God, Create their own High Days, Create images of God in the Likeness of men. Given all the warning about religious men who come in Christ's Name, but are deceivers, it seems we should be diligent not to be convinced of things which are not true about God. For instance, that God placed an unbearable burden of 613 laws on the backs of those HE saved out of Egypt.

If I do something that is wrong, I know it immediately, why, because the Holy Spirit will immediately let me know. That is the law being written on our hearts.

I am truly happy for you. But I had a baptist Pastor 30 years ago teach the exact same thing. He taught that once a man was baptized, the Holy spirit comes in and eternally saves you. He said the Spirit keeps us from sinning. A year later he was indited on 10 counts of criminal sexual assault on little boys, 12 - 14 years old. Fortunately he didn't "love" little girls and I was spared of my only child being scarred for life. After that I spent the next 25 years studying to see how come the Holy Spirit didn't keep this self proclaimed preacher from violating little defenseless boys. What i found, is that as Prophesied, there are self proclaimed "Ministers of Righteousness" who promote doctrines that are lies and "Many" follow them and believe them with all their heart. Jesus warns us, HE had written for our examples over and over that we are responsible for our own actions. That we "CHOOSE" to walk in God's Definition of Good, like Jesus did, or we "CHOOSE" to walk in the religious philosophies of the "other voice" in the garden, like the Pharisees did. And HE gives us examples of the consequences of both. If we don't believe Him, that isn't HIS Fault.

Now to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying that every self proclaimed preacher is a child abusing pervert. What I am saying though, is God doesn't "make" you listen or obey Him. It's a choice we all make. His Spirit helps us discern the truth of the Scriptures. One such Truth is that God didn't save Israel from bondage of Egypt, just to place 613 laws on their backs. If you can't come to terms with that Truth, then how is it you have His Spirit?


I could go through the bible and pick out scriptures that would build any kind of dogma I wanted by pulling select verses without looking at the context of the entire book or letter.

Well I agree with you on this.

I believe the Key to discerning between God's Truth and religious Lies, is given by the Christ Himself.

"Man shall live by Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God"

Jesus quoted the God of the Law and Prophets here. He seemed to believe all that was written, as did Paul, and as do me. If I wanted to build dogma, I could cherry pick scriptures, omit some of God's Commandments, reject Some of His Word's like the mainstream preachers of His Time, and today do.

But i don't. The Bible for me flows like a river of living water from Gen. to Rev.

This is how i know God's didn't save Israel from the Bondage and Slavery in Egypt, just to place an unbearable burden of 613 laws on their necks.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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For everyone either participating or just lurking I would like to, once again, reiterate that all of the laws of the old covenant, the ones given at Sinai, were intended to serve only those who heard the requirements of the covenant and their posterity.
According to the scriptures, we are in the new covenant now not the old covenant *Hebrews 8:13. In the new covenant God's law is written in the heart of those who are born again to walk in Gods' Spirit through faith (Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27; John 3:3-7; Galatians 5:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 3:20). So under the new covenant there is no more Levitical Priesthood *Hebrews 7:1-25; earthly Sanctuary of which was only a copy of the Heavenly that the Lord pitched and not man *Hebrews 8:1-6; Hebrews 9:1-9, no more laws for remission of sins under the old covenant for animal sacrifices and sin offerings as these are all now fulfilled and continued in the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17 and Jesus is Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all *Hebrews 10:10; John 1:29; 36. All of these laws for remission of sins are now fulfilled in Christ under the new covenant based on better promises and were "shadows of heavenly things" *Hebrews 8:5-6.

According to God's Word under the new covenant God's 10 commandments have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and to lead us to Christ so that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25; 1 John 1:9; 1 John 2:1-4; Matthew 9:12-13; John 3:16 and righteousness when obeyed (Psalms 119:172). Therefore God's 10 commandments are Gods' standard of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) and breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments according to James is sin *James 2:10-11. This of course includes Gods' 4th commandment "seventh day Sabbath" which is one of God's 10 commandments *Exodus 20:8-11.

The new covenant promises are very clear and the ministration of the Spirit *2 Corinthians 3:2-18 of Christ frees us from the law of sin and death *Romans 6:23; Romans 8:1-4; John 8:31-36. The ministration of the Spirit in God's new covenant promise is a new heart to love by faith *2 Corinthians 3:2-3 so that we can obey Gods' law and walk in his Spirit *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 "And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them" through love and is why Jesus says truly truly I say unto you unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Those who are born of God do not practice sin (breaking his commandments). Those who say they are from God and do not keep his commandments according to John have not seen him or know him in 1 John 2:3-4. Sin (breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments) *James 2:10-11 according to John is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:6-10.

Let's all pray we do not find ourselves deceived as John says playing for the wrong team only to find disappointment when it is too late once we die or Jesus returns according to Matthew 7:21-23.

May God help us all as we seek Him through His Word
 
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LoveGodsWord

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There was an "IF" clause in the agreement, covenant, If Israel did not keep the covenant's requirements the covenant would be voided. That, of course, is exactly what happened. Israel didn't live up to their part and the covenant ended at Calvary. All the laws of that covenant likewise ended. I don't care how the laws of the covenant were written, they all ended. Anyone who teaches that because the 10 commandments were written by God's own finger on stones and are immortal does not have the truth.

According to the scripture if people sinned under the old covenant in order to receive Gods' forgiveness they had to seek God's forgiveness in the same way that we do in the new covenant and that is by faith *Hebrews 11:1-40. The only thing being different between the two covenants being the process.

In the old covenant God's people sort God's forgiveness through repentance and confession seeking out a Levite Priest from an earthly Sanctuary where they would have to bring animal sacrifices to die for their sins *Leviticus 1. Once they confessed their sins on the lambs head they had to believe that once the lamb was slain that their sins were forgiven. These laws for remission of sins being prophetic in nature pointing to the coming Messiah and Jesus as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all *Hebrews 10:10; John 1:29.

Under the new covenant now based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6 when we sin now we come to Jesus (Gods lamb John 1:29; Hebrews 10:10) seeking God's forgiveness in repentance and confession of our sins (Acts of the Apostles 2:38; 1 John 1:9; 1 John 2:1-4).

The main difference between the two covenant is that in the old covenant Gods' people through the old covenant laws for remission of sins looked forward to the promise of the coming Messiah and Jesus as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all *Hebrews 10:10 and in the new covenant we look backwards to the promised Messiah in Jesus and his death on the cross on behalf of our sins and His new ministration in the Heavenly Sanctuary for remission of sins on our behalf *2 Corinthians 3:2-18; Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22.

The new covenant promises from Hebrews 8:10-12; Jeremiah 31:31-36 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 do not abolish God's law they establish Gods' law in the lives of all those who through faith are born again to walk in Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16; 1 John 3:6-9; Romans 3:31

Therefore anyone claiming that Gods' 10 commandments are abolished according to the scriptures is not telling the truth according to 1 John 2:3-4 as Love is expressed through obedience to Gods' law not by breaking it.

We should be careful to believe and follow Gods' Word.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Gentiles were never under the covenant given at Sinai. They didn't observe days God ordained for His one people. Those who so fervently try to tell the World's population that we all have to obey the commands given only to Israel do not understand how the covenant worked and the scope of who was affected by the laws of that covenant.

God has always had people in the old covenant that were Gentiles that wanted to follow God's Word and were made a part of Gods' Israel of the old covenant. Even God's 4th commandment Sabbath makes provision for Gentile believers in the old covenant who wanted to believe and follow God's Word "the strangers (foreigners) that are within thy gates *Exodus 20:8-11. Those that came out of Egypt even including a mixed multitude that were not from Israel that were gentile believers that went with the children of Israel (Exodus 12:38).

In the new covenant according to the scriptures Gods' ISRAEL are no longer those born of the flesh according to Jesus and Paul *John 8:31-47; Romans 9:6-8 but all those who are now born of the Spirit through believing and following Gods' Word *John 3:16; John 10:26-27. There are now no more Gentile believers and Jewish believers as we are all now one in Christ *Galatians 3:27-28; Romans 2:27-28; Ephesians 2:11-20.

If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL in the new covenant we have no part in Gods' new covenant promise which is salvation through faith *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27 only made to God's ISRAEL not born of the flesh but born of the Spirit through faith. According to the scriptures gentile believers are now grafted in place of Jewish unbelievers *Romans 11:13-27.

If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL in the new covenant we have not part in Gods new covenant promises which is to ISRAEL born of the Spirit and not of the flesh.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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There are no special days ordained by Jesus in His new covenant. Anyone who tries to tell you differently is doing so without scriptural proof. The fact is that the Sinai covenant did not work for Israel in the past. Those who continue to try to impose any part of it on mankind today are denying Jesus' mission to this Earth to give us a covenant that does work to save all mankind from our real sins.

According to the scriptures Gods' 4th commandment is one of Gods' 10 commandments in the new covenant that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and righteousness when obeyed *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and if we knowingly and willfully break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.

All those who knowingly practice unrepentant sin according to Paul in Hebrews 10:26-31 are in danger of the judgement and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant scriptures (scripture proof) as a requirement and the standard for Christian living in the new testament scriptures.

We should be careful to believe and follow Gods' Word (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29). Ignoring them do not make them disappear as they become our judge come judgement day according to the scriptures *John 12:47-48

Our words matter little. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them.
 
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RBPerry

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Joined up with Israel????


In my understanding, the Holy Spirit doesn't teach men to reject Commandments of God, Create their own High Days, Create images of God in the Likeness of men. Given all the warning about religious men who come in Christ's Name, but are deceivers, it seems we should be diligent not to be convinced of things which are not true about God. For instance, that God placed an unbearable burden of 613 laws on the backs of those HE saved out of Egypt.

Well I agree with you on this.

I believe the Key to discerning between God's Truth and religious Lies, is given by the Christ Himself.

"Man shall live by Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God"

Jesus quoted the God of the Law and Prophets here. He seemed to believe all that was written, as did Paul, and as do me. If I wanted to build dogma, I could cherry pick scriptures, omit some of God's Commandments, reject Some of His Word's like the mainstream preachers of His Time, and today do.

But i don't. The Bible for me flows like a river of living water from Gen. to Rev.

This is how i know God's didn't save Israel from the Bondage and Slavery in Egypt, just to place an unbearable burden of 613 laws on their necks.

The Holy Spirit leads people into truth, and to imply that if I don't believe as you do, then I'm believing a lie. Do you believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and sanctification?

In one sense it sounds like you have a problem with main stream Christianity, if you do then at some point you are going to need to recognize that you don't have all the answers, and maybe just some of your beliefs aren't accurate. We all deal with the same issues, fully understanding what the Lord wants from us.

If a preacher is preaching the word and then sins, does that make his message null and void, I don't think so. We can all find those who have fallen short and sinned. Over the years I couldn't count how many pastors have fallen normally to sexual sins. As your example, Baptist, does that mean all Baptist pastors are sinners, sure they are just like the rest of us. We are all sinners saved by grace.
There are consequences to sin, and especially sins that break mans laws.

One thing that is common, when someone doesn't like the message (or someone's opinion) if the message can't be countered, then the messenger is attacked. We do not know each other, I can only get a glimpse of who you are based on what you write, as you with me, or anyone else on these forums that you don't know personally.

On my dad's side of the family were mostly Masons. They had a restaurant and bar up in a little town called Shingle Town in Northern California. My wife and I drove through several years ago got talking to a lady in one of the stores. I asked about the Big Wheels restaurant and bar. Now this lady was dressed as most Adventist women and I knew the Adventist had kind of taken over the town. She said "well it burnt down and those heathens are gone." I smiled at her and said, "That is a lovely Christian attitude you have towards others. That was my family you are talking about."
The Big Wheel burnt down twice, each time was arson. I've wondered who may have done it. After that they couldn't get a permit to rebuild.

So what is my point, we can always find those who have sinned or are sinning. Remember the woman caught in adultery, Jesus said "Where are your accusers, neither do I accuse you, go and sin no more." That is love, and compassion, He didn't justify the sin, but he forgave her.

Sounds to me we should all be a little more tolerant of each others opinions, because in reality that is all they are.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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We definitely did talk about this before on a different thread.

If I recall correctly, you responded to the question but didn't directly answer it.

So, to keep us from going in circles again, what is your answer?


I agree that we have to look at the whole passage. So, looking at the whole passage, is Jesus giving one "until" condition or two?

Now we are at kind of a discussion crossroads.

I'm happy to answer all of your questions and deal with all of those wonderful scriptures. However, if I do that right now, I can almost guarantee that we will go in circles again.

My suggestion is:
How about if you pick a particular, exact question that you believe will take us in a direction and not a circle. And I will be happy to answer that question :)
Hi Leaf,

I guess we do not speak each other’s language because I thought I addressed the passage directly about my opinion based on the context of what Jesus was saying in the whole passage. I also did ask you an exact question “what do you think the passage means?” So I am confused by your reply. TBH and I am not trying to be rude, but I have noticed you get hung up on a word and can’t seem to take a step back to analyze what the message means in the scripture, instead you seem to get stuck on the one word. Personally I would rather misunderstand a word, than miss the entire mark and message we are supposed to learn from the passage, which is what I think you are doing with what Jesus said in Mathew 5:17-20. He ends the passage with this which is pretty strong language that we need to obey God’s commandments. Mathew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
 
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Bob S

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Hi Leaf,

I guess we do not speak each other’s language because I thought I addressed the passage directly about my opinion based on the context of what Jesus was saying in the whole passage. I also did ask you an exact question “what do you think the passage means?” So I am confused by your reply. TBH and I am not trying to be rude, but I have noticed you get hung up on a word and can’t seem to take a step back to analyze what the message means in the scripture, instead you seem to get stuck on the one word. Personally I would rather misunderstand a word, than miss the entire mark and message we are supposed to learn from the passage, which is what I think you are doing with what Jesus said in Mathew 5:17-20. He ends the passage with this which is pretty strong language that we need to obey God’s commandments. Mathew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
I presume your interpretation of the meaning in verse 19 of the least of these commandments means the 10 commandments. How did you come to that conclusion if my assumption is correct?
 
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Bob S

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According to the scriptures Gods' 4th commandment is one of Gods' 10 commandments in the new covenant that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and righteousness when obeyed *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and if we knowingly and willfully break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.

All those who knowingly practice unrepentant sin according to Paul in Hebrews 10:26-31 are in danger of the judgement and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant scriptures (scripture proof) as a requirement and the standard for Christian living in the new testament scriptures.

We should be careful to believe and follow Gods' Word (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29). Ignoring them do not make them disappear as they become our judge come judgement day according to the scriptures *John 12:47-48

Our words matter little. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them.
Sorry LGW your cut and paste post didn't address my post. Sorry LGW, the weekly Sabbath command is not addressed in the New Testament after Jesus ratified the New and better Covenant, the one with better promises. Your misguided teachings of Heb 3 and 4 absolutely do not tell us to observe the weekly Sabbath given only to Israel. The writer was addressing Israelites who were observing the weekly Sabbath. The wanderers in the desert for 40 years observed the Sabbath. Well, we know of one who picked up some sticks and was stoned for doing so. Funny the writer would tell the Jews who were observing the Sabbath that none of them had ever entered His Rest. Nowhere in those chapters does it tell me or you to observe the weekly Sabbath now does it?
 
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