Adventist Investigative Judgment

BobRyan

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"Everlasting Gospel" and the judgment is "in heaven" Dan 7:9-10 and future to John's day and before the second coming.

Dan 7:24-26 while the saints are being persecuted

And while the Gospel is being preached on Earth

Rev 14:
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”​

Rom 2:13-16
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus

I would however like to know if @The Liturgist has had his question answered or has more questions to be addressed - just to make sure we have all the definition of terms out on the table. It is great to test a certain doctrine by first starting with "what is it".
 
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bbbbbbb

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Do any of the non-Adventists have further clarifying questions?

Bob or other Adventists, do you have any other elements you would like to spell out further? Thanks again Bob for taking the time on this.

I have read through all of the creation thread that you referenced. I am contemplating what I could post that would help, but am not sure yet.

When the question and clarification stage is done I plan to go through and note all the elements I agree with. As I do so I would encourage non-Adventists to do the same.

From there we can start to examine any elements where there is not agreement.

I found this helpful and hope that others might also benefit - Investigative judgment - Wikipedia
 
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BobRyan

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Additional clarifying:

- Adventists indicate that the only names reviewed in the investigative judgment are those who are "professed" followers of God. The judgment of the wicked takes place at a later time.
Do Adventists agree with the following quote from the Great Controversy chapter 23?

Please note, I am only posting this as it is usually agreed upon by Adventists, and not to demonstrate the doctrine, or to claim that Adventists are attempting to demonstrate the doctrine with statements by Ellen White.

Yes the point that sins are forgiven all during the year - and then in Lev 16 they are dealt with at the end of the year in "Day of Atonement" shows that something remains in the daily service that is addressed in the yearly "Day of Atonement" in the 7th month.

This reflects the fact that not all humans make any sort of claim pleading to God for forgiveness of sins. Some simply declare themselves atheist or opposed to the idea of asking God for anything (and many other variations thereof).

But of those who have some sort of claim to be accepted or rejected -- then the sanctuary service is where that is sorted out - "on display" for the court room of Dan 7 to review. The bottom line is - when the world ends and all sin has ceased ... all questions about who was saved and who was lost will have been addressed.

And that includes revolving the "forgiveness revoked" scenario Christ brings up in Matt 18 and the salvation revoked examples that we find in Matt 13, Romans 11, Ezek 18 etc.
 
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tall73

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I agree with these elements in the fundamental belief statement:

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle that the Lord set up and not humans. In it Christ ministers on our behalf,


Agreed:

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Hebrews 7:23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.



making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross.


Agreed:

Hebrews 10:11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Hebrews 7:27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?



typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus.

Agreed:

Leviticus 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel. 18 And he shall go out to the altar that is before the Lord, and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar all around. 19 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, cleanse it, and consecrate it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

Hebrews 9:22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
 
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tall73

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I agree with these elements of the Adventist view:

-4 beasts of Daniel 7,Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome
- The Ancient of Days has a throne that can move (Ezekiel)
- Agreed the Daniel judgment scene happens prior to the second coming, resulting in judgment on the little horn.
- Agreed there are books or record, and the book of life which are involved in judgment
- A day for a year is stated to be used in some passages.
- I agree all issues of justice will be resolved
- I agree that one must endure to the end to be saved, and if someone is without Christ, or renounces Him, they would bear the penalty for their own sin.
 
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tall73

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Your quote shows that one place Adventists get this doctrine is from Dan 7
  • 4 beasts (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome) -- Dan 7:1-8

A clarifying question. How do you view verse 12 in regards to what is happening, and the timing, etc.

Dan 7:11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.
Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
 
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tall73

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3. It further states that the "visual aid" the mechanism for recording and then cleansing is the Sanctuary in heaven.


The Great Controversy, by Ellen G. White. Chapter 23: What Is the Sanctuary?

As anciently the sins of the people were by faith placed upon the sin offering and through its blood transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary


Additional clarifying question before going into disagreements--Can you post the Bible verses that state the sin offering transfers sins to the sanctuary in the earthly type. I already hold to the view that we must endure to the end generally. I am asking about specific texts regarding the type that say the sin offering transfers to the sanctuary.
 
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BobRyan

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Can you post the Bible verses that state the sin offering transfers sins to the sanctuary in the earthly type. .

The mechanism for transferring the sins confessed over the head of the sin offering (taking sin away from the guilty person and transferring it) - was the priesthood. The Priest was either to bring that blood of the sin offering into the sanctuary or else eat some portion of the sin offering and then take it into the sanctuary in the form of the "person" of the Priest.

Lev 10:16 But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying, 17 “Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to take away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you certainly should have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded!

===================

However, as interesting as this detail may be to SDAs and ex-SDAs - we need to stay focused on the main point of the pre-advent investigative Judgment that we already discussed in Daniel chapter 7 and also the Daniel 8 and 9 texts that point to judgment hour of Rev 14:7 starting in 1844 where judgment is described in 2 Cor 5:10 and Rom 2:4-16.

One does not need to go through Lev 10:16-18 to get those big-picture details.
 
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BobRyan

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A clarifying question. How do you view verse 12 in regards to what is happening, and the timing, etc.

Dan 7:11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.
Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

In Rev 13:1-2 you see a composite beast comprising all the beasts of Dan 7:1-8 so then some form of them remains. In addition even in Dan 7 it is not until the end of the chapter that all kingdoms but Christ's kingdom - cease to exist.
 
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BobRyan

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I agree with these elements of the Adventist view:

-4 beasts of Daniel 7,Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome
- The Ancient of Days has a throne that can move (Ezekiel)
- Agreed the Daniel judgment scene happens prior to the second coming, resulting in judgment on the little horn.
- Agreed there are books or record, and the book of life which are involved in judgment
- A day for a year is stated to be used in some passages.
- I agree all issues of justice will be resolved

- I agree that one must endure to the end to be saved, and if someone is without Christ, or renounces Him, they would bear the penalty for their own sin.

That last point requires that some form of record of that sin had to remain even while the person was forgiven so that 10 years from today when that person in-effect renounces faith -- the guilt all their sin is returned.

No doubt God would not need a record to bring it back - but since the entire exercise is really just for the benefit of the observers -- then for the sake of those observers the record would have to have existed the entire time, so that in the scenario above - the exact guilt owed is returned to the debtor as Christ points out in Matthew 18.
 
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tall73

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These are the the high level critiques I see of the Adventist investigative judgment.

1. The activity of the earthly high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement was not a review of records, but an applications of blood for the sins of all the people. There was no investigation, but applying of the blood of the sacrifice. Those who did not afflict themselves were cut off, but this was not the activity of the high priest in the sanctuary. This happened outside the sanctuary as they rejected the ministration. This cutting off also occurred in connection to those who did not regard the Passover. In both cases the person was cutting themselves off from the benefit of the ministration.

2. Daniel 7 does not meet the criteria that Ellen White lays out for the investigative judgment. It is conducted prior to the second coming. However, It includes powers that were not composed of professed followers of God, such as Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, etc. who have their dominion stripped. Per Ellen White the investigative judgment is only on the professed followers of God, so this would not match up. Moreover, the judgment pictured is on nations, and God has been judging nations from the beginning. The saints are delivered from the little horn power. There is no reference to individual judgment of individuals, or confusion regarding those who are the saints.

3. Daniel 8 points to cleansing from the activity of the little horn, not the Day of Atonement cleansing. When Miller formulated the doctrine he thought the earth was the sanctuary, and the little horn power would be destroyed at the coming of Jesus. However, since the Adventist interpretation of Daniel 8 is that the Day of Atonment cleansing is in view, the context does not match up. The cleansing in chapter 8 is not the cleansing of the Day of Atonement. Rather, as in Daniel 7, the little horn power is in view.

Daniel 8:11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

The context is the place of His sanctuary being cast down by the little horn power. It is in this context that we see the question regarding the 2,300 days:

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?” 14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

The context does not reference the Day of Atonement, but restoring the sanctuary after the activity of the little horn against the sanctuary.

4. We will stand before Christ Himself, in person. As was pointed out by the Liturgist in the other thread, there will be a judgment for each person, and it will resolve any issues of justice, etc. Everything will already be revealed when we stand in person before the judgment seat of Christ:

In the eschaton, we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ Pantocrator, and our Lord and God, in the person of the same Jesus Christ who is our savior and the only begotten Son and Word of God, will judge the living and the dead, and Himself separate the wheat from the tares.

The texts that speak of this indicate that it is not a judgment in absentia before His coming, but rather an in-person judgment at His coming.

1Co 4:4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.


When the Lord comes He brings to light the things now hidden in darkness and discloses the purposes of the heart. There will be no question after that. And this includes Paul, a professed follower of God.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.


We stand before the judgment seat. We bow before Him. We confess. We give an account. This is not describing a judgment from books without our presence. This clearly portrays a judgment in person by the Lord. And this includes the professed followers of God because Paul is speaking to believers.

5. The portion of the Day of Atonement that related to entry with blood and presentation before the Father already happened in the first century, along with all the other blood-work.

While the type had many sacrifices throughout the year the fulfillment had only one perfect sacrifice of Christ, once for all. Following Jesus' death He appeared before the Father, presenting His completed sacrifice. And in that act all that was necessary for sin purification was completed.

Hebrews 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, He, having made purification for sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

He then sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Hebrews 10:11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

He not only died, but offered the one sacrifice for sins forever.

Having done all of the blood work he sat down. This is contrasted with the priest who does not sit but must stand daily daily to present offerings. Jesus did not need a prolonged ministration of multiple sin offerings, daily. He made one sacrifice and presented it. He reigns as King and High Priest, having completed all the blood work.

Since He completed the ministration of His sacrifice we now come to Him to receive the benefits in real time:

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Just as His sacrifice was once for all, so too was the entry with blood once for all.

Hebrews 10:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the holy places once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

The entry is once for all, and the result is obtaining eternal redemption.

The Fundamental belief notes the necessity of the cleansing of the heavenly things. This is spelled out beginning in Hebrews 9:23.

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Here the necessity of cleansing is stated. And then it is spelled out that Christ entered in to the true sanctuary and appeared in the presence of God, which is shown to be superior to the yearly entry of the high priest with blood.

He enters in this way with blood only once, or else He would have to suffer more than once, and that is stated to be not the case. He was sacrificed once. And He entered once, into God's presence in comparison to the earthly high priest's yearly entry.

The rest of the Day of Atonement will presumably occur at the end when He leaves the sanctuary. However, the death of Christ, and His entry into God's presence where He made purification for sins only occurred one time in history, in the first century, and are once for all.

6. The heavenly intelligences still have to trust God's just actions in this scenario. If the angels needed review of the books prior to the second coming to be assured of God's justice, how would they know that the names God presented as the "professed" followers of God was the correct list either?

In summary, there is no need for a pre-advent investigative judgment, as Christ will judge us individually in person.

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

This would not be the fulfillment of the blood application in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement because Jesus already appeared with blood on our behalf in the first century, and the blood presentation on the Day of Atonement was not an investigation of books, but a cleansing of sins of the whole camp.

The cutting off of those who did not avail themselves happened outside the sanctuary.
 
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BobRyan

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These are the the high level critiques I see of the Adventist investigative judgment.

1. The activity of the earthly high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement was not a review of records, but an applications of blood for the sins of all the people. There was no investigation, but applying of the blood of the sacrifice. Those who did not afflict themselves were cut off, but this was not the activity of the high priest in the sanctuary. This happened outside the sanctuary as they rejected the ministration. This cutting off also occurred in connection to those who did not regard the Passover. In both cases the person was cutting themselves off from the benefit of the ministration.

1. The daily service already did that.
2. There is no individual confessing any specific sin on Lev 16 on Day of Atonement - but there is in the daily.
3. Even the Jews admit that the final disposition of all sins for the entire year is the scope of the Lev 16 "day of atonement".
4. the Judgment of all - is depicted in Dan 7 as the solution for the problem of persecution of the saints - and that same problem is brought up again in Dan 8 - - where the solution is called "cleansing of the sanctuary"
5. the symbols and types did not have every single detail - for example the lamb slain has no Romans, has no cross, has no trial/judgment by Rome or anyone else, has no resurrection.
6. There is no example of anyone "failing" in the Day of Atonement for failure to humble themselves - yet we know that not all Christians are saved. It is the "FEW" of Matt 7 that are saved and the "MANY" of Matt 7 that are lost.

Types can only be stretched so far to illustrate the point. They do not address "every detail"

=========================
Day of Atonement - Lev 16 - is also day of Judgment

Judgment Day
Yom Kippur comes just ten days after Rosh Hashanah. Ten days prior to Yom Kippur, the Torah commands us to blow the shofar on Rosh Hashanah. One of the reasons for blowing the shofar is as a warning that a period of judgment has begun. According to Jewish tradition, the Gates of heaven swing open on Rosh Hashanah. The Heavenly Court is convened on Rosh Hashanah. The Books of Judgement opened on Rosh Hashanah. The heavenly ledgers are scrutinized on Rosh Hashanah.

Yom Kippur High Holiday Festival - Kehilat Sar Shalom.

So not only does the Dan 7 to Dan 8 comparison above point to "cleansing" on the Day of Atonement as including the work of Judgment - but the Day of Atonement itself points to it.
 
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tall73

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Because Bob went back and edited his post before this to include a great deal more information, I edited this post to include a response to his above statements.

---original post----
Another smaller item, there is no indication that the vision of Daniel 8 was incomplete. In fact, Daniel was told it is true and he should sea it up for it referred to many days in the future.

Daniel 8:26
“And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.


------------

Edit to respond to Bob's edited post:

Tall 73 said:
The activity of the earthly high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement was not a review of records, but an applications of blood for the sins of all the people. There was no investigation, but applying of the blood of the sacrifice. Those who did not afflict themselves were cut off, but this was not the activity of the high priest in the sanctuary. This happened outside the sanctuary as they rejected the ministration. This cutting off also occurred in connection to those who did not regard the Passover. In both cases the person was cutting themselves off from the benefit of the ministration.

1. The daily service already did that.
2. There is no individual confessing any specific sin on Lev 16 on Day of Atonement - but there is in the daily.

That is because they are pictures of two different aspects of Christ's work. The sin offering is a picture of confession by an individual of a single sin, showing the death of the animal and presentation of blood that provides forgiveness and atonement for the sinner, AND makes atonement in the holy place:

Lev 4:20 Thus shall he do with the bull. As he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this. And the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.

Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.


The day of Atonement cleansing is a picture of corporate forgiveness for the sins of all the people. The portion of that service that was done by the high priest, in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement is an application of blood to atone for the sins of the people, and cleanse the sanctuary.

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.


Adventists have changed the type. Instead of a provision of blood for all their sins, Adventists have posited that the high priest is reviewing individual cases from books. But as can be seen above, it was not books that were pictured, but an application of cleansing blood.

347219_51d07b07cd5048df362c322ebebf7412.PNG



3. Even the Jews admit that the final disposition of all sins for the entire year is the scope of the Lev 16 "day of atonement".

The portion that happened in the sanctuary is what is specifically dealt with here. And that did deal with corporate cleansing, provision of blood. And Jesus did that.

Lev. 16 says nothing about books, etc.

The portion of the Day of Atonement that happens when Jesus leaves the sanctuary is yet to be fulfilled. But the presentation of Jesus' sacrifice before the Father already happened. Adventists just changed the whole understanding of the type from blood application to review of books and individual cases. That is not what the high priest did in the sanctuary.

4. the Judgment of all - is depicted in Dan 7 as the solution for the problem of persecution of the saints - and that same problem is brought up again in Dan 8 - - where the solution is called "cleansing of the sanctuary"

Both of those refer to judgment on nations/beast/powers and the little horn. Those chapters describe actions of those powers and their judgment. The saints are delivered as a group, but no statement is made of their individual judgment in that chapter. And as highlighted in a number of posts there are plain texts that speak of the professed people of God being judged at Jesus' coming, when standing in person before His judgment seat.

Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 do not show a cleansing application of blood by the high priest for the sins of all the people, which is what the high priest did in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. Adventists changed the type by inserting books which are not pictured in Leviticus 16 at all.

5. the symbols and types did not have every single detail - for example the lamb slain has no Romans, has no cross, has no trial/judgment by Rome or anyone else, has no resurrection.
6. There is no example of anyone "failing" in the Day of Atonement for failure to humble themselves - yet we know that not all Christians are saved. It is the "FEW" of Matt 7 that are saved and the "MANY" of Matt 7 that are lost.

Actually, some did fail:

Lev 23:26 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Lev 23:27 “Now on the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. It shall be for you a time of holy convocation, and you shall afflict yourselves and present a food offering to the LORD.
Lev 23:28 And you shall not do any work on that very day, for it is a Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.

Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 23:30 And whoever does any work on that very day, that person I will destroy from among his people.

Lev 23:31 You shall not do any work. It is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.”


There are those who were cut off for not afflicting themselves or regarding the Day of Atonement, just as anyone who does not avail themselves of Christ's work will not be saved. But this shows the point. What happened in the sanctuary was a cleansing application of blood by the high priest. That is what Jesus did. And anyone who doesn't accept it is condemned because they have not accepted God's Son:

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.


As to Matthew 7 it is not a reference to the Adventist IJ. It happens before Christ at His coming, as do the other texts that spell out the actual judgment on believers who give an account, confess, receive their reward, etc.

Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

On that day some will object, and He will answer, and then send them into judgment. This is at His coming. In the proposed Adventist IJ you don't even know your name comes up, let alone dialogue, etc.


Other texts spell out this judgment before Christ at His coming:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.



Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


They appear before Him, He judges them, and some protest, but He presents the evidence against them. Then they receive their reward.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.


We bow
We confess
We give an account.

This is not the Adventist IJ where we don't even know when our name comes up. This is appearing before Christ in person for judgment.


Types can only be stretched so far to illustrate the point. They do not address "every detail"

The type does show the detail of cleansing application of blood which is what Jesus did. It doesn't say anything about books, etc. because that is not pictured in the type.


Day of Atonement - Lev 16 - is also day of Judgment


Judgment Day
Yom Kippur comes just ten days after Rosh Hashanah. Ten days prior to Yom Kippur, the Torah commands us to blow the shofar on Rosh Hashanah. One of the reasons for blowing the shofar is as a warning that a period of judgment has begun. According to Jewish tradition, the Gates of heaven swing open on Rosh Hashanah. The Heavenly Court is convened on Rosh Hashanah. The Books of Judgement opened on Rosh Hashanah. The heavenly ledgers are scrutinized on Rosh Hashanah.

Yom Kippur High Holiday Festival - Kehilat Sar Shalom.
So not only does the Dan 7 to Dan 8 comparison above point to "cleansing" on the Day of Atonement as including the work of Judgment - but the Day of Atonement itself points to it.

Bob, you are quoting Jewish tradition instead of Scripture?

There is judgment on those who do not receive the cleansing application of blood. They are cut off.

But all the rest of that is not stated in Leviticus 16 in regards to what the high priest did in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

What He did was apply cleansing blood for the sins of all the people. Jesus did that.
 
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BobRyan

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2. Daniel 7 does not meet the criteria that Ellen White lays out for the investigative judgment. It is conducted prior to the second coming. However, It includes powers that were not composed of professed followers of God, such as Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, etc. who have their dominion stripped. Per Ellen White the investigative judgment is only on the professed followers of God, so this would not match up. Moreover, the judgment pictured is on nations, and God has been judging nations from the beginning. The saints are delivered from the little horn power. There is no reference to individual judgment of individuals, or confusion regarding those who are the saints.

1. There is "wayyy more Ellen White" in your comment than anything I presented. you are going off script a bit.

2. Ellen White does include a great many non-Christians in the Rom 2:11-16 group who "have no scripture at all" and yet are saved. You have inserted your view of what she meant without looking into the full scope of those she claims are being justified - set right - in the sanctuary - revealed as born-again and saved in the way Paul says it in Rom 2:16.

3. Your quote of her statement here May 7, 2021 #23 said this -
"This work must be performed prior to the coming of Christ to redeem His people; for when He comes, His reward is with Him to give to every man according to his works. Revelation 22:12"​

hmmm "every man" is not leaving anyone out from what I can see. But the only cases that are "in doubt" are those of anyone having a claim to forgiveness no matter how slim that claim is.
 
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BobRyan

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Another smaller item, there is no indication that the vision of Daniel 8 was incomplete. In fact, Daniel was told it is true and he should sea it up for it referred to many days in the future.

Daniel 8:26
“And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.

2300 years would be "many days in the future" and the vision was not unsealed and understood until we see it as an "open book" in Rev 10:8

A somewhat esoteric point that is not going to be of a lot of interest to non-SDAs unless I am missing something.
 
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BobRyan

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3. Daniel 8 points to cleansing from the activity of the little horn, not the Day of Atonement cleansing. When Miller formulated the doctrine he thought the earth was the sanctuary, and the little horn power would be destroyed at the coming of Jesus. However, since the Adventist interpretation of Daniel 8 is that the Day of Atonment cleansing is in view, the context does not match up. The cleansing in chapter 8 is not the cleansing of the Day of Atonement. Rather, as in Daniel 7, the little horn power is in view.

Daniel 8:11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

The context is the place of His sanctuary being cast down by the little horn power. It is in this context that we see the question regarding the 2,300 days:

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?” 14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

The context does not reference the Day of Atonement, but restoring the sanctuary after the activity of the little horn against the sanctuary.

1. This event is parallel to the judgment event in Dan 7 and resolves the problem of persecution of the saints in both Dan 7 and 8.

2. The judgment "passes in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 - and that is what limits the wicked from having more ability to persecute the saints. The fact that the wicked are persecuting the saints during the time the judgment goes on - completely removes the idea that all of the judgment waits for the 2nd coming to begin.. Rather as Dan 7 points out - the judgment completes THEN the 2nd coming happens.

3. The Sanctuary in heaven is also referenced as "Those who dwell in heaven" Rev 13:"6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven." - Rev 3: "12 The one who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God".

As in Job 1 and 2 - the false accusations against the people of God - are what is being addressed by this judgment out of the books of Dan 7 - where 2 Cor 5:10 says both good and bad deeds are being evaluated and Romans 2:4-16 says both good and bad outcomes are the result.

The sanctuary is the venue - the vehicle for doing all of that.

Having the false separated from the true - and the good trees shown to be good trees by their fruits - provides the "solution" in Dan 7 and 8 that allows God to shut down persecution of the saints. Questions are fully addressed that way. Accusations resolved.

4. Lev 16 is explicit that the sins of the people are what is being atoned for on the Day of Atonement - just as 2 Cor 5:10 and Romans 2:4-16 point to the actual deeds of the person.
 
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tall73

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Tall73: 1. The activity of the earthly high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement was not a review of records, but an applications of blood for the sins of all the people. There was no investigation, but applying of the blood of the sacrifice. Those who did not afflict themselves were cut off, but this was not the activity of the high priest in the sanctuary. This happened outside the sanctuary as they rejected the ministration. This cutting off also occurred in connection to those who did not regard the Passover. In both cases the person was cutting themselves off from the benefit of the ministration.


1. The daily service already did that.
2. There is no individual confessing any specific sin on Lev 16 on Day of Atonement - but there is in the daily.
3. Even the Jews admit that the final disposition of all sins for the entire year is the scope of the Lev 16 "day of atonement".

The act of the high priest in the sanctuary was application of blood. There is no investigation of books ,etc. inside the sanctuary in the type.

The Day of Atonement deals with the final disposition of sin for those who trust in Christ by purging their sins through His blood.

Those who did not avail themselves did not benefit. But the priest was making corporate provision of blood.

It is a picture of corporate forgiveness. Each of the various sacrifices and each of the appointed times spelled out some aspect of the work of Christ.

The sin offering for the individual did deal with confession for an individual sin.

The Passover shows Jesus' death on the cross (Christ our Passover Lamb is slain, per I Corinthians 5). Jesus was the firstfruits from the dead, etc.

The Day of Atonement does deal with the final disposition of sin. But it occurs, as we noted earlier, in multiple parts. The portion in the sanctuary is the application of blood.

The day of Atonement deals with corporate provision for all the believers throughout the camp for the year, or in the fulfillment, all believers, throughout time in the world.


4. the Judgment of all - is depicted in Dan 7 as the solution for the problem of persecution of the saints - and that same problem is brought up again in Dan 8 - - where the solution is called "cleansing of the sanctuary"

Except it doesn't spell out individual judgment. It spells out judgment against nations and powers and judgment for the saints who were being persecuted.

5. the symbols and types did not have every single detail - for example the lamb slain has no Romans, has no cross, has no trial/judgment by Rome or anyone else, has no resurrection.
6. There is no example of anyone "failing" in the Day of Atonement for failure to humble themselves - yet we know that not all Christians are saved. It is the "FEW" of Matt 7 that are saved and the "MANY" of Matt 7 that are lost.

But there is both affliction of soul on that day, and there is judgment for the one who does not do so.

Leviticus 23:26 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 27 “Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. 28 And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. 29 For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people. 30 And any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. 31 You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall c]">[c]afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall d]">[d]celebrate your sabbath.”

The same is true for the Passover, which also represented Jesus' sacrifice.

Types can only be stretched so far to illustrate the point. They do not address "every detail"

But in the case here they don't represent the very thing you claim, which is investigative judgment by the High Priest in the sanctuary. Instead we see a cleansing application of blood.

And those who do not accept it are cut off, but that happens outside the sanctuary.

And in Daniel 7 we see a judgment on nations that were not professed people of God--Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome are judged. If it were only on the professed people of God they would not be judged here. Rather it is a judgment of nations and on the little horn power, and judgment is given in favor of the saints as a group.
 
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4. We will stand before Christ Himself, in person. As was pointed out by the Liturgist in the other thread, there will be a judgment for each person, and it will resolve any issues of justice, etc. Everything will already be revealed when we stand in person before the judgment seat of Christ:
.

1. Rev 22 when Jesus appears his reward is with Him - the judgment is over.
2. In Dan 7 when Jesus appears - the judgment is over.
3. Saints are persecuted all during the review where that judgment is going on - I doubt saints will be zipped up to heaven while the wicked torment them and they stand before Christ to be judged - most people do not accept that idea as valid.
4. Rev 14:6-7 the judgment takes place while Gospel evangelism is fully going on - for the people on Earth who are responding to the Gospel
5. Dan 7 - the judgment takes place while the saints are being persecuted.

There is no "stand in person" in 2 Cor 5:10 - rather the case of that person is being brought up -- while saints are being persecuted on Earth. Eph 2: 5 even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, ... not yet "in person".. for now the saints are persecuted.

I agree with these elements of the Adventist view:
- Agreed the Daniel judgment scene happens prior to the second coming, resulting in judgment on the little horn.

The fact that the wicked are persecuting the saints during the time the judgment goes on - completely removes the idea that all of the judgment waits for the 2nd coming to begin.. Rather as Dan 7 points out - the judgment completes THEN the 2nd coming happens.
 
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