Your evidence for God, in another theist's hands...

Paul4JC · May 8, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
What if a believer in a different God told you they had the same reasons for believing in their God as you do for believing in yours? Would you then believe in their God?

And if a third party asked you which of the two of you were correct, would you be able to show them that you were?

This has happened with the god Baal. He is one of many gods.

"The worship of Baal was popular in Egypt from the later New Kingdom in about 1400 BCE to its end (1075 BCE). Through the influence of the Aramaeans, who borrowed the Babylonian pronunciation Bel, the god ultimately became known as the Greek Belos, identified with Zeus."
Baal | Definition, Myths, Worship, & Facts | Britannica

[1Ki 18:20-39 NIV] 20 So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. 21 Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him." But the people said nothing. 22 Then Elijah said to them, "I am the only one of the LORD's prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23 Get two bulls for us. Let Baal's prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD. The god who answers by fire--he is God." Then all the people said, "What you say is good." 25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire." 26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it. Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. "Baal, answer us!" they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made. 27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. "Shout louder!" he said. "Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened." 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention. 30 Then Elijah said to all the people, "Come here to me." They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the LORD, which had been torn down. 31 Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, "Your name shall be Israel." 32 With the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs of seed. 33 He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, "Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood." 34 "Do it again," he said, and they did it again. "Do it a third time," he ordered, and they did it the third time. 35 The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench. 36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: "LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37 Answer me, LORD, answer me, so these people will know that you, LORD, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again." 38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench. 39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The LORD--he is God! The LORD--he is God!"

Which god do you worship?

DamianWarS · May 8, 2021

jayem said:
That only demonstrates that belief in a god or gods exists. It’s not evidence that such entities exist in any way other than in the imagination. Or as wishful thinking.

It is beyond wishful thinking as it represents a mass collective of common desires and felt needs that transcend mere imagination. Imagination is the symptom of these needs not counter-evidence to it. of course, this does not prove God and it more builds a case for proof of a universal felt need for God but you seem bent more on rejecting this than putting any stock into it.

InterestedAtheist · May 9, 2021

Paul4JC said:
This has happened with the god Baal. He is one of many gods.

"The worship of Baal was popular in Egypt from the later New Kingdom in about 1400 BCE to its end (1075 BCE). Through the influence of the Aramaeans, who borrowed the Babylonian pronunciation Bel, the god ultimately became known as the Greek Belos, identified with Zeus."
Baal | Definition, Myths, Worship, & Facts | Britannica

[1Ki 18:20-39 NIV] 20 So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. 21 Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him." But the people said nothing. 22 Then Elijah said to them, "I am the only one of the LORD's prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23 Get two bulls for us. Let Baal's prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD. The god who answers by fire--he is God." Then all the people said, "What you say is good." 25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire." 26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it. Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. "Baal, answer us!" they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made. 27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. "Shout louder!" he said. "Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened." 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention. 30 Then Elijah said to all the people, "Come here to me." They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the LORD, which had been torn down. 31 Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, "Your name shall be Israel." 32 With the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs of seed. 33 He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, "Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood." 34 "Do it again," he said, and they did it again. "Do it a third time," he ordered, and they did it the third time. 35 The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench. 36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: "LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37 Answer me, LORD, answer me, so these people will know that you, LORD, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again." 38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench. 39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The LORD--he is God! The LORD--he is God!"

Which god do you worship?

That is a great story, one that I've often enjoyed reading. I think it's a great idea. So please arrange a properly-witnessed, verified and recorded prayer meeting to make a pile of wood explode into flames upon the completion of a prayer so that I can convert to the worship of the Christian God forthwith.

InterestedAtheist · May 9, 2021

DamianWarS said:
sharing a common value system of belief even if it leads to different concepts of God does not void said concepts but rather the opposite. the similarities can lead to increased evidence that there is a God and to the third party it is the similarities that will carry the most weight. I would say two individuals who do not share the same geography and culture yet express the same desire and need for God, despite coming to different conclusions may suggest a universal need that supersedes "where you came from" which can be quite remarkable in itself. Most people in the world believe in God and among those monotheistic groups form the vast majority. Just because there are varied ideas of God doesn't negate God but shows a wide-reaching need and desire for God.

The problem is, most people in the world who believe in a God say that most of the other people are wrong in their beliefs about who He is and what He believes.
If God actually exists, this is a very strange situation. But if God doesn't actually exist, it's just what we would expect to happen: humans have a deep-rooted need to make sense of the inexplicable by imagining agency at work, and since there is no actual agency at work, the things they imagine don't match up with each other.

InterestedAtheist · May 9, 2021

Hammster said:
No it’s not. It’s an apologetics forum. The reason that evidence doesn’t work is because of the reasons I gave.

Your statement is inconsistent. Yes, this is an apologetics forum; and yes, it's a place where Christians are invited to give evidence for their beliefs. Or, as Christian Forums puts it:

MUST READ: Christian Apologetics Statement of Purpose

Christian Apologetics is a branch of theology that concerns itself with the rational defense of the Christian faith against arguments and opposing viewpoints. The purpose of the Christian Apologetics forum is to give non-Christians the opportunity to start threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs...All participants should endeavor to support their arguments, and their rebuttals, with evidence. (emphasis added).

So if you are saying that you don't have any evidence to give for God's existence - well, I generally assume that anyway, but I'm impressed by your honesty in admitting it.

InterestedAtheist · May 9, 2021

Rachel20 said:
Yes, which is right in line with 1 Corinthians 1:21-24

Faith isn't without reason, but faith is still required. Again, right in line with the above verses, which is by God's own design.

Okay. Sounds like you just came on to a forum that asks you to present evidence for your beliefs being true and conceded that you don't have any.

Thanks.

InterestedAtheist · May 9, 2021

GospelS said:
I'm confident that any unbeliever who gets to see the power of Christ working in me will be persuaded to believe in God.

I'd be very interested indeed to see evidence of the power of Christ working in you.

Hammster · May 9, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
Your statement is inconsistent. Yes, this is an apologetics forum; and yes, it's a place where Christians are invited to give evidence for their beliefs. Or, as Christian Forums puts it:

MUST READ: Christian Apologetics Statement of Purpose

Christian Apologetics is a branch of theology that concerns itself with the rational defense of the Christian faith against arguments and opposing viewpoints. The purpose of the Christian Apologetics forum is to give non-Christians the opportunity to start threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs...All participants should endeavor to support their arguments, and their rebuttals, with evidence. (emphasis added).

So if you are saying that you don't have any evidence to give for God's existence - well, I generally assume that anyway, but I'm impressed by your honesty in admitting it.

I didn’t say that there is no evidence. If your level of argumentation is to take snippets of posts out of context, then you’ll “win” every time.

I said that Christianity isn’t evidence-based. And I gave reasons for that. If you want to deal with the argument I put forth in my first post, then okay. If you just want to twist it, then have a great day.

InterestedAtheist · May 9, 2021

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
God does good because God IS good. Solves the dilemma by suggesting that is actually a trilemma and that the missed response solves all issues.

I see. Okay, so God is good, and that's why he does good; because he is good. He is goodness itself, you might say. Yes?
Well then, what does that mean, to say that God's character is goodness itself? How do you know? Can you measure it by some external standard that tells you God is good?
Or is God's character itself the yardstick by which goodness is measured? Does the nature of God's character simply decide what is good and what is not?
What do you think?

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
It does make you wonder why you picked this as something that Christians can't answer. Christians not being able to prove or disprove Santa has no relevance to the core tenets of Christianity and Santa doesn't even make an appearance in the Bible!

Funnily enough, it has a very great relevance. I'd better explain.
A lot of the time, I run into Christians who seem to have the idea that nonbelievers have the burden of proof; that they need to prove that God doesn't exist, and if they can't, then they have to believe in God. Perhaps you wouldn't say this yourself, but I assure you plenty of Christians do seem to think so. The question about Santa is simply to show them why this doesn't make sense. Of course, if you don't subscribe to the view that atheists have the burden of proof, then feel free to ignore it.

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
Your question was that of whether the Bible endorses slavery, not whether it condemns it, which is why I pointed to the slave Bible.

Ignore, condemn; two sides of the same coin.

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
Since the message of both testaments includes the setting free of slaves, it is clear that argue that it wholeheartedly endorses slavery is wrong, but that in itself is a simplistic representation of what the Bible teaches just as your quote mining is cherry picking the negative endorsements of slavery.

Please don't throw nasty words like "quote mining" around. And no, I'm afraid it's not clear that the Bible does not wholeheartedly endorse slavery. It's certainly true that the Bible includes stories of slaves being freed. But in what way are these a criticism of the institution of slavery? Moses didn't want the Israelites freed because slavery is bad; he wanted them freed because he felt it was bad for his people - God's chosen people - to be slaves. Moses himself was just fine with enslaving others, as just about anyone else in the Bible was who expressed an opinion on the matter.

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
And I did say 'yes and no' as my response to the question (which means it is a question that Christians can answer.

That remains to be seen. Saying one thing in response to another may technically count as an answer, but if the answer isn't satisfactory can you say that you have really "answered" the question?

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
Thinking of questions that Atheists can't answer...
- Does God command something because it is good, or is it good because God commands it?

God commands something because the people who imagined God thought it would be a good thing for him to command.

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
- Can you prove that Santa does not exist?

No, I cannot.

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
- Why don't prayers ever have any effect?

Because there is no God to listen to them.

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
- Does the Bible endorse slavery?

Yes. As is easily seen just about every time any person in the Bible opines on the matter.

DamianWarS · May 9, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
The problem is, most people in the world who believe in a God say that most of the other people are wrong in their beliefs about who He is and what He believes.

This avoids the commonality among every people group on earth (including your own) Pluralism doesn't negate God even if only 1 is right. Most people think you're wrong so why does your minority position better?

InterestedAtheist said:
If God actually exists, this is a very strange situation.

Why is it strange that most people believe in God if God exists? Should that be exactly what you'd expect?

InterestedAtheist said:
But if God doesn't actually exist, it's just what we would expect to happen: humans have a deep-rooted need to make sense of the inexplicable by imagining agency at work

That theory only works in an ignorance vacuum but knowledge has increased amount all yet this deep rooted need still continues

InterestedAtheist said:
and since there is no actual agency at work, the things they imagine don't match up with each other.

The varied accounts of an agency at work is a product of the deep rooted need superimposed over many different cultures and people groups. They don't match up because people groups don't all think the same yet above it all is still the need regardless if how that need is interpreted the need is the same.

InterestedAtheist · May 9, 2021

Hammster said:
I didn’t say that there is no evidence.

Fine. Then present it.

Hammster said:
If your level of argumentation is to take snippets of posts out of context, then you’ll “win” every time.

No, I tend to win by pointing out when my debating opponents have offered no reason to think that what they're saying is true.

Hammster said:
I said that Christianity isn’t evidence-based. And I gave reasons for that.

Your reasons amount to little more than "I have nothing to back up my arguments but I still win because the Bible says you win by having nothing to back up your arguments."

Hammster said:
If you want to deal with the argument I put forth in my first post, then okay. If you just want to twist it, then have a great day.

I reread your first post, and I'm afraid I haven't yet seen an argument. If you have an argument for God's existence, I'd like to hear it.

InterestedAtheist · May 9, 2021

DamianWarS said:
This avoids the commonality among every people group on earth (including your own) Pluralism doesn't negate God even if only 1 is right. Most people think you're wrong so why does your minority position better?

Because a belief is not convincing simply because many people believe in it. It is convincing because it is backed up by good reasoning and evidence.

DamianWarS said:
Why is it strange that most people believe in God if God exists? Should that be exactly what you'd expect?

If God actually existed, we should expect most people to believe in Him. But they don't. Most people believe in Him, Him, Him, Him, Him, them, them and occasionally Her.
In other words, if God is real, we should not expect to see what we do in fact see: most people believing in different Gods. And, for that matter, even the people who do believe in the same God disagree - often violently - about what that God wants and says.
If God actually existed, we would expect to see only one religion with no schisms. That is not what we do see.

DamianWarS said:
That theory only works in an ignorance vacuum but knowledge has increased amount all yet this deep rooted need still continues

Why shouldn't it? Human nature doesn't change overnight, or even over thousands of years.

DamianWarS said:
The varied accounts of an agency at work is a product of the deep rooted need superimposed over many different cultures and people groups. They don't match up because people groups don't all think the same yet above it all is still the need regardless if how that need is interpreted the need is the same.

Right. As I said. Believing in God is a basic human need. And the fact that people all have different ideas about what God or gods is/are is good reason to think that we are, well, just making it all up.

disciple Clint · May 9, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
What if a believer in a different God told you they had the same reasons for believing in their God as you do for believing in yours? Would you then believe in their God?

And if a third party asked you which of the two of you were correct, would you be able to show them that you were?

No and Yes

Silly Uncle Wayne · May 9, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
I see. Okay, so God is good, and that's why he does good; because he is good. He is goodness itself, you might say. Yes?
Well then, what does that mean, to say that God's character is goodness itself? How do you know? Can you measure it by some external standard that tells you God is good?
Or is God's character itself the yardstick by which goodness is measured? Does the nature of God's character simply decide what is good and what is not?
What do you think?

The latter would be more accurate. Question answered. Next!

InterestedAtheist · May 9, 2021

disciple Clint said:
No and Yes

Very good. In that case, what are your reasons for believing in God? And if another person said that they believe in a different god from you for the same or similar reasons, how would you go about proving that you were right and they were wrong.

InterestedAtheist · May 9, 2021

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
The latter would be more accurate. Question answered. Next!

Thank you.
In that case, do I understand you to be saying that goodness means "whatever is in accordance with God's nature"?

Hammster · May 9, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
Your reasons amount to little more than "I have nothing to back up my arguments but I still win because the Bible says you win by having nothing to back up your arguments."

Since this is the only response that came close to actually addressing something I said in context, I’ll respond to this.

There’s nothing in Christianity that says we must “prove” God exists. God is God, and the proof is all around.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God...

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
— Romans 1:20

There’s no need to provide evidence because the evidence is there.

Silly Uncle Wayne · May 9, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
Funnily enough, it has a very great relevance. I'd better explain.
A lot of the time, I run into Christians who seem to have the idea that nonbelievers have the burden of proof; that they need to prove that God doesn't exist, and if they can't, then they have to believe in God. Perhaps you wouldn't say this yourself, but I assure you plenty of Christians do seem to think so. The question about Santa is simply to show them why this doesn't make sense. Of course, if you don't subscribe to the view that atheists have the burden of proof, then feel free to ignore it.

The question about Santa might be to show why burden of proof makes no sense, but it is NOT a question that Christians cannot answer. Next!

PS - the burden of proof is a red herring! Something is true if it can be proven and untrue if it can be disproven, but if it cannot be either proven or disproven then that doesn't mean by definition that it is true or untrue. It just means that it cannot be proven or disproven. So lack of proof really means nothing.

PPS. Scientific 'proof' is not the same as absolute proof (like in mathematics). Falsification and modelling do not have certainty but are based on evidence or dismissed by lack of evidence.

PPPS. Which is why Santa is a bit of a silly argument, since the evidence is overwhelmingly against his existence as anything other than a figment of imagination very loosely based on a real person in history. This is not proof, but it is is a good reason to not accept claims about the reality of Santa. If you only disbelieve things are true when given proof, you of course still believe in Santa and God also... which means you are not an atheist.

Silly Uncle Wayne · May 9, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
Please don't throw nasty words like "quote mining" around. And no, I'm afraid it's not clear that the Bible does not wholeheartedly endorse slavery. It's certainly true that the Bible includes stories of slaves being freed. But in what way are these a criticism of the institution of slavery? Moses didn't want the Israelites freed because slavery is bad; he wanted them freed because he felt it was bad for his people - God's chosen people - to be slaves. Moses himself was just fine with enslaving others, as just about anyone else in the Bible was who expressed an opinion on the matter.

It is not difficult to find both simple and complex refutations of the concept of slavery among Christians. Try Paul Copan's Is God a Moral Monster? where he devotes 3 chapters to the subject.

I understand why you raise the issue, but slavery in the Bible is not the same as Slavery in any other culture that I am aware of. The fact that people could choose to become slaves for a time (up to seven years) is a good indication that it is not the same as what we usually term 'slave' (and in the Greek it can mean servant. with only the context indicating something forced.

What is more, even before Jesus the Jews frowned on taking foreign slaves (that's part of history), the early Christians accepted it, but greatly discouraged it (e.g. Philemon) and the Patriarchs made it clear that it was unacceptable... which probably helped in the downfall of Rome. It was Christians who opposed the African slave trade in Europe and spent years and a lot of money to first close it down and then free slaves.

So your original question was answered - clearly Christians can and do answer it, whether you like it or not. Next!

Silly Uncle Wayne · May 9, 2021

InterestedAtheist said:
That remains to be seen. Saying one thing in response to another may technically count as an answer, but if the answer isn't satisfactory can you say that you have really "answered" the question?

Which is my point entirely. You make these out as questions that Christians can't answer, when you really mean that SOME Christians can't answer in way that satisfies YOU. The fact that the answers are available for Christians and that they are either satisfied by them or at least accepting of them as a possibility means that your set of questions is meaningless.

You not liking an answer does not make it untrue or invalid, it is just a personal opinion... unless you are willing to have the courage of your convictions and take up the burden of proof that you want to throw on others.

Your evidence for God, in another theist's hands...

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