About Sabbath

klutedavid said:

Your interpretation only examines half of the text and is not Biblical.

Acts 15:5
But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

See LGW, the Jerusalem Council dealt with both circumcision and the law at the same time.

You have the wrong set of commandments.

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No. Your trying to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or teach. You may want to discuss your interpretation with Paul who was at that meeting and latter says to the Corinthians believers 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandments of God. Sorry David God's Word does not teach lawlessness as lawlessness according to the scriptures is sin *1 John 3:4 and those who continue in it according to John do not know God and need to be born again (see 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:6-10)

Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord said:

No. Your trying to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or teach. You may want to discuss your interpretation with Paul who was at that meeting and latter says to the Corinthians believers 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandments of God. Sorry David God's Word does not teach lawlessness as lawlessness according to the scriptures is sin *1 John 3:4 and those who continue in it according to John do not know God and need to be born again (see 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:6-10)

Hope this is helpful.

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Sorry LGW. If we are not circumcised then we are not under the law. If we are not under the law, then of course, we are not under the ten commandments.

Your quoting from 1 John to support your case but you need to read the whole of 1 John.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

How easy was that!

LoveGodsWord said:

In the same place it says Gods' 4th commandment Sabbath from Exodus 20:8-11 has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest - No where.

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Hey LGW, your not under the law. Only the Jews were under the law. The ten commandments are the law.

Your confusing the old covenant with the new covenant.

One is in the Old Testament and the new covenant is in the New Testament.

Here to assist.

BobRyan said:

Why would I say that? even Acts 15 says gentiles cannot do that.

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I certainly hope not.

And it does not say
"delete your Bible"

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It does say delete the old covenant.

nor "it is now ok for you to take God's name in vain"

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It is always sin to do that. Yet we are not under the law since we are now under grace.

But not "Love God with all your heart"
and not "Love your neighbor as yourself"
and not "do not take God's name in vain"

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Love Jesus with all your heart.
Love others as Jesus has loved you.
Do not take the name of Jesus in vain.

None of those are in Acts 15... so what's your point? "delete your Bible"??

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Bob, your failing to see what Acts 15 is saying. We are not under the law and we have a few simple rules to follow.

On "page 1" we saw that some Bible details are sooooo obious that Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath/Sunday debate topic freely admit to them (in almost all major Christian denominations) - see this post-- #11 for "the easy part" of this topic.

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Don't trust the Catholic Church, Bob.

klutedavid said:

Sorry LGW. If we are not circumcised then we are not under the law. If we are not under the law, then of course, we are not under the ten commandments.

Your quoting from 1 John to support your case but you need to read the whole of 1 John.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

How easy was that!

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No. Circumcision has nothing to do with Gods' 10 commandments being a requirement for Christian living as Paul says, Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandments of God. - 1 Corinthians 7:19. Circumcision was only a physical sign of a new heart to be given by faith in all those who believe and follow God's Word pointing to God's new covenant promise (Deuteronomy 10:16; Deuteronomy 30:6; Jeremiah 4:4). No one loves God or their fellow man by breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments according to the scriptures (John 14:15: John 15:10; 1 John 5:2-3; Romans 13:8-10; 1 John 2:3-4). Faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes it *Romans 3:31 and is why Jesus says on these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets in John 14:15.

klutedavid said:

Hey LGW, your not under the law. Only the Jews were under the law. The ten commandments are the law.

Your confusing the old covenant with the new covenant.

One is in the Old Testament and the new covenant is in the New Testament.

Here to assist.

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No. It is you who is confusing the old covenant with the new but let me explain why from the scriptures. The Old covenant shadow laws for remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, Sanctuary service, the laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices and sin offerings; circumcision etc) are fulfilled in Christ while God's eternal law (10 Commandments) give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken according to the new covenant scriptures in *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 1 John 3:4 and if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. The new covenant is Gods' law written on the heart through faith that works by love. *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34; and Ezekiel 36:24-27. According to the scriptures, as posted earlier, no one loves God by breaking his commandments. If we love God we will be keeping his commandments from the heart because we love God (John 14:15: John 15:10; 1 John 5:2-3; Romans 13:8-10; 1 John 2:3-4).

Hope this is helpful

klutedavid said:

Your interpretation only examines half of the text and is not Biblical.

Acts 15:5
But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

See LGW, the Jerusalem Council dealt with both circumcision and the law at the same time.

You have the wrong set of commandments.

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klutedavid said:

Acts 15 is the instruction of the apostles to all Gentile churches.

We only need to obey those four rules and we will do well.

You keep saying the ten commandments but the apostles only gave us four rules.

I cannot find where the apostles said we have to obey the ten commandments.

Who is right and who is wrong?

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The Law of Moses is not the Ten Commandments. The Ten were not even in question.

Please take note the distinction being made in Deuteronomy. The Covenant, the Ten Commandments which God commanded. And the statutes and judgements the Lord commanded Moses to teach.

Deut 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Deut 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

And again in 2 Kings The Lord our God is making a distinction between what He hath commanded and all the Law His servant Moses commanded.


2Kgs 21:8 Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.


So we see by the voice of the Lord our God they are different.

However there is another issue.

Obviously a percentage of what is written in the Book of the law is relevant or these four mentioned in verse 20 would not have been brought to light. Nor would verse 21 starts with the word "for". This word is used in verse 21 to assign the reason for what was previously stated in verse 20. In other words we will state that they are to abstain from these four because Moses from from long ago have in every city those who preach him, being read in the Synagogues every Sabbath.



Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

LoveGodsWord said:

No. Circumcision has nothing to do with Gods' 10 commandments being a requirement for Christian living as Paul says, Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandments of God. - 1 Corinthians 7:19. Circumcision was only a physical sign of a new heart to be given by faith in all those who believe and follow God's Word pointing to God's new covenant promise (Deuteronomy 10:16; Deuteronomy 30:6; Jeremiah 4:4). No one loves God or their fellow man by breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments according to the scriptures (John 14:15: John 15:10; 1 John 5:2-3; Romans 13:8-10; 1 John 2:3-4). Faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes it *Romans 3:31.

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Same mistake LGW, you keep tripping over the old covenant. The ten commandments were given within and under the old covenant. The Jews agreed to obey the ten commandments three times.

Exodus 24:7-8
Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!” So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, “Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.”

That was the older shadow covenant that was predictive of the divine new covenant. The old covenant, old commandments, old law.

The old covenant was sealed with animal blood, a covenant of legal works. We will be obedient they said, three times. Then they turned on Him and they crucified Him.

The new covenant was sealed with the blood of the Lord. A new covenant delivered through an act of treason by the Jews against Him at Calvary.

The new covenant is a covenant of grace, where the Lord, unlike us, was perfectly obedient to His Father. A perfect reconciliation established, a perfect new creation, a perfect love above all.

God did it all for us without our interference.

Jesus is the first and the last with absolutely nothing in between.

klutedavid said:

It does say delete the old covenant.

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1. There is no command for us to "delete the old covenant"

2. Not being under the old covenant is not the same as "delete The Bible" - it is the law of "obey and Live" under which Adam and Eve lived peacefully until they sinned and it is the Law that Paul says - continues to condemn all mankind who are not under the Gospel - Rom 3:19-20

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.

Of which Paul says Rom 3:31 "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

More Bible please.

How nice that this is an easy lesson to read about in the Bible - so obvious that Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath / Sunday debate in almost all Christian denominations admit to it.

klutedavid said:

Same mistake LGW, you keep tripping over the old covenant. The ten commandments were given within and under the old covenant. The Jews agreed to obey the ten commandments three times.

Exodus 24:7-8
Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!” So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, “Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.”

That was the older shadow covenant that was predictive of the divine new covenant. The old covenant, old commandments, old law.

The old covenant was sealed with animal blood, a covenant of legal works. We will be obedient they said, three times. Then they turned on Him and they crucified Him.

The new covenant was sealed with the blood of the Lord. A new covenant delivered through an act of treason by the Jews against Him at Calvary.

The new covenant is a covenant of grace, where the Lord, unlike us, was perfectly obedient to His Father. A perfect reconciliation established, a perfect new creation, a perfect love above all.

God did it all for us without our interference.

Jesus is the first and the last with absolutely nothing in between.

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The question we should ask ourselves is how do we really know that we know God? 1 John 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. If we do not know what the old covenant is how can we know what the new covenant is that the old covenant points to? (Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). According to the scriptures Gods' grace is for obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 not to disobedience to sin as those who practice sin and those who do not practice sin (breaking God's commandments) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil according to John in 1 John 3:6-10.

LoveGodsWord said:

The question we should ask ourselves is how do we really know that we know God? 1 John 2:3-4 [3],

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So easy to answer.

1 John 3:11-12
For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1 John 3:14
14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren.

1 John 3:18
Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4],

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Here are the commandments again.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

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John told us what the commandments were.

If we do not know what the old covenant is how can we know what the new covenant is that the old covenant points to?

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The old covenant was a shadow covenant pointing to the new covenant. Does it get any more obvious?

According to the scriptures Gods' grace is for obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 not to disobedience to sin as those who practice sin and those who do not practice sin (breaking God's commandments) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil according to John in 1 John 3:6-10.

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Who said anything about sinning?

The new testament can be reduced to faith and love.

Ephesians 1:15
For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints,

Ephesians 3:17
So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love.

Ephesians 6:23
Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You can't possibly miss what Paul is saying.

BobRyan said:

1. There is no command for us to "delete the old covenant"

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You may need to read the New Testament more.

Here is where we are told to delete the old covenant.

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete.

If you need any more help just ask.

2. Not being under the old covenant is not the same as "delete The Bible" - it is the law of "obey and Live" under which Adam and Eve lived peacefully until they sinned and it is the Law that Paul says - continues to condemn all mankind who are not under the Gospel - Rom 3:19-20

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Jesus cancelled the law of sin and death which is what you are referring to.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Jesus has given us liberty.

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.

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The works of the law count for nothing but condemnation and death.

Of which Paul says Rom 3:31 "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

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That quotation of yours does not say 'ten commandments', the quotation says 'we establish the Law'. Since we are not circumcised then we are not under the law. Obviously, Paul means the law is established because it identifies what sin is, the knowledge of sin.

More Bible please.

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Your wish is granted.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

How nice that this is an easy lesson to read about in the Bible - so obvious that Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath / Sunday debate in almost all Christian denominations admit to it.

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I would advise you to not put your trust in any Christian denomination, as far as doctrine is concerned. Christian history is strewn with denominations following faulty doctrines.

Better to concentrate on the New Testament yourself.

klutedavid said:

So easy to answer.

1 John 3:11-12
For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1 John 3:14
14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren.

1 John 3:18
Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.Here are the commandments again.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.John told us what the commandments were.The old covenant was a shadow covenant pointing to the new covenant. Does it get any more obvious?Who said anything about sinning?

The new testament can be reduced to faith and love.

Ephesians 1:15
For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints,

Ephesians 3:17
So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love.

Ephesians 6:23
Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You can't possibly miss what Paul is saying.

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I love the scriptures though none of them are against what I have already shared with you. How is love expressed according to Paul in Romans 13:8-10; James in James 2:8-12 and Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40? Do I love my neighbor by murdering them? Do I love God by making idols and bowing down and worshiping them? Do I love my neighbor by lying and stealing from them? Do I love God by breaking his Sabbath? No one loves God by breaking Gods' commandments dear friend (see 1 John 5:2-3; John 14:15: John 15:10). According to John those who say they know God while breaking God's commandments are not telling the truth and the truth is not in them in 1 John 2:3-4. Sin is the breaking of anyone of God's 10 commandments according to James 2:10-11 and 1 John 3:4 because it is through the law that we have a knowledge of what sin is according to Paul in Romans 7:7 and Romans 3:20. God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is according to the scriptures. I guess it was not so easy for you after all.

Something to pray about I guess.

LoveGodsWord said:

I love the scriptures though none of them are against what I have already shared with you. How is love expressed according to Paul in Romans 13:8-10; James in James 2:8-12 and Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40? Do I love my neighbor by murdering them? Do I love God by making idols and bowing down and worshiping them? Do I love my neighbor by lying and stealing from them? Do I love God by breaking his Sabbath? No one loves God by breaking Gods' commandments dear friend (see 1 John 5:2-3; John 14:15: John 15:10). According to John those who say they know God while breaking God's commandments are not telling the truth and the truth is not in them in 1 John 2:3-4. Sin is the breaking of anyone of God's 10 commandments according to James 2:10-11 and 1 John 3:4 because it is through the law that we have a knowledge of what sin is according to Paul in Romans 7:7 and Romans 3:20. God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is according to the scriptures. I guess it was not so easy for you after all.

Something to pray about I guess.

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Wrong commandments you have there.

1 John 3:11-12
For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1 John 4:7-8
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

1 John 4:12
No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:21
And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

klutedavid said:

Wrong commandments you have there.

1 John 3:11-12
For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1 John 4:7-8
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

1 John 4:12
No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:21
And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

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Hello David.

Thanks for sharing the scriptures with me but none of them support a view that love is separate from obedience to Gods' law or teaches a gospel of lawlessness. Such a teaching is not biblical going directly against the very teachings of Jesus *Matthew 5:17-20 and pretty much all the new testament scriptures as shown here (not exhaustive).

Love in fact is God's new covenant promise of how we are to obey Gods' law not break God's law according to the scriptures. I asked you some question earlier you avoided as a hint to help you see this but I can see you could not see this so let's talk scripture detail that might help this discussion. I asked you earlier how do we express love to God as shown in Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12 and elsewhere? I think these are good questions when we look at the scriptures to find answers in God's Word. I asked you further, do we love my neighbor by murdering them? Do we love God by making idols and bowing down and worshiping them? Do we love my neighbor by lying and stealing from them? Do we love God by breaking his Sabbath?

Love is a very important topic and has everything to do with God's new covenant promise of God writing his Law in our hearts as we believe and follow his Word. It means that Gods' new covenant promise of obedience to Gods 10 commandments will be written in the heart of all those who are born again in the Spirit through faith that works by love and is why Jesus says to us "Truly truly I say to you unless a man is born again we cannot enter to Gods' kingdom in John 3:3-7. This is why John says in 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and EVERY ONE THAT LOVES IS BORN OF GOD, AND KNOWS GOD. This is because all those who are born again to love do not practice sin as John shows in 1 John 3:9 Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Sin is defined in the bible as not believing and following Gods' Word in Romans 14:23 and breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments in Romans 7:7 ... I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet. John here of course using the example of the 10th commandment in Exodus 20:17. Paul here is clarifying what he says earlier in Romans 3:20 where he says ... for by the law is the knowledge of sin. That is when we break anyone of God's 10 commandments according to the scriptures we stand guilty before God of sin. James here of course agreeing with Paul when he says in James 2:10-11 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. James here you can see also quoting Gods' 10 commandments who is simply agreeing with John when he says in 1 John 3:4 Sin is the transgressing of the law or breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments.

According to the scripture context that you have left out of 1 John 2:21-23 it is not pleasing in God’s eyes that we sin and break His commandments. Sin is defined early in 1 John 3:4 where is says “Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” It is not pleasing to God that we sin and the reason John is writing here is that we sin not in 1 John 2:1. In fact John goes on to say in 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:6 that we do not know God if we knowingly break his commandments and that sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:9-10. This is showing that the fruit of our faith is seen in obedience to Gods' law which is what James discusses in James 2:17-20; 26 when he says faith without works (obedience) is dead and does not demonstrate true biblical faith.

Those who are born of God to love through faith according to the scriptures do not practice sin according to 1 John 3:6-9. This is all context stated that leads into 1 John 3:23 in regards to love where love is also relevant as shown earlier in Matthew 22:36:40; Romans 13;8-10 and James 2:10-11 Love is not separate from Gods’ law it is expressed through it. So to say we are now free to break any one of God’s 10 commandment and say we are expressing love by by doing so is not biblical according to the scriptures as sin (breaking God’s law) is what those who do not know God do according to 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:6-10. God’s people therefore love God and keep His commandments as shown in the scriptures provided in John 14:15; John 15:10: 1 John 5:2-3; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17: Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

Love therefore is not separated from God’s law it is fulfills its requirements through faith (Romans 3:31) and is expressed through obedience to God's law as we have faith in God’s promises and it why JESUS says on these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets *Matthew 22:36-40.

No one has ever said that keeping God's commandments save us. They are the fruit of faith that work by love. We keep God's commandments because we love God *John 14:15 and he has saved us *Matthew 9:12-13 not because they save us. We are all sinners in need of a Savior and this is where God's law leads us *Galatians 5:16. We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *PHILIPPIANS 2:13 as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

We have a choice dear friend. We can read the 10 commandments from the tables of stone that give us the knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 or we can receive the Gospel and God's free gift of grace through the cross and receive forgiveness and newness of life to be free to walk in God's spirit and receive a new heart to love through grace. *Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 8:1-4; Galatians 5:16.

Unless we are born again with a new heart to love and God's law is written in our heart we cannot see the kingdom of heaven according to Jesus *John 3:3-7. Those who are born again to love and have received Gods new covenant promise of his law being written on the heart through faith *Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 3:31 do not practice sin (breaking God's law) *1 John 3:6-9.

According to the scriptures those who claim they know God and knowingly practice sin are lying and the truth is not in them *1 John 2:3-4. Sin, which is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments and not believing God's Word *James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23 according to the scriptures is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

God's law is not abolished through love it is how Gods' law is to be obeyed....

John 14:15 IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

John 15:10 [10], IF YOU KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, YOU SHALL ABIDE IN MY LOVE; EVEN AS I HAVE KEPT MY FATHER'S COMMANDMENTS AND ABIDE IN HIS LOVE.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and EVERY ONE THAT LOVES IS BORN OF GOD, AND KNOWS GOD.

1 John 5:2-4 [2], BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE LOVE GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[3], FOR THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: AND HIS COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT GRIEVOUS. [4], For whatever is born of God overcomes the world: and THIS IS THE VICTORY THAT OVERCOMES THE WORLD, EVEN OUR FAITH.

2 John 1:6 AND THIS IS LOVE THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. THIS IS THE COMMANDMENT, THAT, AS YOU HAVE HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING, YOU SHOULD WALK IN IT.

Matthew 22:36:40 [36], Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. [38], This is the first and great commandment. [39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

Romans 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW. [9], For this, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT KILL, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, YOU SHALL NOT COVET; AND IF THERE BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, IT IS BRIEFLY SUMMED UP IN THIS SAYING, NAMELY, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

James 2:8-12 [8], IF YOU FULFILL THE ROYAL LAW ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF, YOU DO WELL: [9], But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.[10], FOR WHOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, AND YET OFFEND IN ONE POINT, HE IS GUILTY OF ALL. [11], FOR HE THAT SAID, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, SAID ALSO, DO NOT KILL. NOW IF YOU COMMIT NO ADULTERY, YET IF YOU KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW. [12], So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Isaiah 58:13-14 [13], IF YOU TURN AWAY YOUR FOOT FROM THE SABBATH, FROM DOING YOUR PLEASURE ON MY HOLY DAY; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honorable; AND SHALL HONOR HIM, NOT DOING YOUR OWN WAYS, NOR FINDING YOUR OWN PLEASURE, NOR SPEAKING YOUR OWN WORDS: [14], Then shall you delight yourself in the LORD; and I will cause you to ride on the high places of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father: for the mouth of the LORD has spoken it.

Your mistake here dear friend is in trying to separate Gods' 10 commandments from love when it is only through obedience to God's 10 commandments that love is expressed to both God and man. This is why Jesus says; "On these two great commandments of love to God and love to man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40. Love therefore is not separated from Gods' to commandments it is how God's 10 commandments are establsihed and are to be obeyed through faith (see Romans 3:31).

Hope this is helpful.

There is a publication from an SDA church writer from Andrews University in the United States that covers this topic found here . It is an interesting perspective that i have only recently focused my own attention on regarding the Sabbath debate.

another website article with another angle found here.

Worth reading in order to get a better perspective on the SDA fundamental in relation to the Old and New covenants and also the relationship to the Sabbath.

klutedavid said: ↑
It does say delete the old covenant.

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BobRyan said: ↑
1. There is no command for us to "delete the old covenant"

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klutedavid said:

You may need to read the New Testament more.
Here is where we are told to delete the old covenant.
Hebrews 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete.

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That is a great example of God not telling us to delete the Old Covenant.

It says that GOD is the one that makes it obsolete and only for those under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 where the moral Law of God (that defines what sin is - 1 John 3:4) known to Jeremiah and his readers - is "written on heart and mind". And that means it includes the TEN spoken directly by God.

A Bible detail that Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath/Sunday topic freely admit to (so not just one side noticing this key detail). As we already noticed here #11 on this thread -- page 1.

If you need any more help just read the actual Heb 8 chapter you are referencing since it is a verbatim quote of Jer 31:31-34

========================================== Heb 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, to the extent that He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
A New Covenant

7 For if that first covenant had been free of fault, no circumstances would have been sought for a second. 8 For in finding fault with the people, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will bring about a new covenant
With the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care about them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, declares the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 And they will not teach, each one his fellow citizen,
And each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For they will all know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful toward their wrongdoings,
And their sins I will no longer remember.”

13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.
=========================================

So then it is "still" a sin to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- even for Christians.

I can not count how many dozens of times you and I have had this conversation but I enjoy it each time. Thanks for repeatedly bringing this up.

Heb 8
I will bring about a new covenant
With the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care about them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, declares the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

So then it is "still" a sin to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- even for Christians.

Eph 6:1-2 That law known to Jeremiah includes the TEN Commandments - where "the first commandment with a promise" in that unit of TEN is "honor your father and mother"


Bible details that Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath/Sunday topic freely admit to (so not just one side noticing this key detail). As we already noticed here #11 on this thread -- page 1. It is "the easy part" of the topic.

klutedavid said:

I would advise you to not put your trust in any Christian denomination, as far as doctrine is concerned.

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So again - the Bible details just quoted - so "easy" to see that even the Bible scholars on BOTH sides of this topic - freely admit to them.

"easy" details - too easy for someone to miss generally speaking.

For example:
Someone reading our discussions might notice that you and I differ on almost everything

- but if someone else were to read our discussions and then respond to one of my posts in favor of the Sabbath because I quote Jesus in Mark 2:27. Suppose they say "yes but Jesus is not the Messiah so why is that text important?" or "yes but Jesus is not the Son of God so why are you quoting Him?".

I could then respond with "look those issues you bring up - are Bible details that are soooo easy and obvious to get that even klutedavid and I agree on them... even though we differ on almost everything when we post on the same topic".

My argument would not be that such a person should just "take your word for it" or that I myself just "took your word" for those key Bible details about Christ - rather my point is that some Bible details are soooooo incredibly obvious even BOTH sides of a given Sabbath debate can admit to them.

Of which Paul says Rom 3:31 "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

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klutedavid said:

That quotation of yours does not say 'ten commandments', the quotation says 'we establish the Law'.

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Paul is the one speaking - not me.

He says that the Law includes the TEN where "the first commandment with a promise" is the commandment to honor parents Eph 6:1-2

Paul speaks of those "under the Law" in Rom 3 and shows in both Rom 2 and 3 that this includes the TEN commandments. That is the Law that we establish.

klutedavid said:

the quotation says 'we establish the Law'. Since we are not circumcised then we are not under the law. Obviously, Paul means the law is established because it identifies what sin is, the knowledge of sin

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And Paul says the lost do not obey it but the born-again Christian does.

Rom 8
God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. ... 13 for if you are living in accord with the flesh, you are going to die;

klutedavid said:

Wrong commandments you have there.

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The commandments include the TEN where "the first commandment with a promise" is "honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2 according to Paul.

The commandments include the TEN - and they include "do not cove" Rom 7 - according to Paul

The commandments include the TEN - in Rom 13 where these commandments are found
Rom 13:10
“You shall not commit adultery, (Ex 20)
You shall not murder, (Ex 20)
You shall not steal, (Ex 20)
You shall not covet,” (Ex 20)
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Lev 19:18)

As we also see listed for us -- even before the cross in Matt 19.

Bible details that Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath/Sunday topic freely admit to (so not just one side noticing this key detail). As we already noticed here #11 on this thread -- page 1. It is "the easy part" of the topic. It does not mean you have to admit to these Bible details or agree of course... but it is helpful reference/context for the readers.

===============

Bottom line is - that means it is still a sin "to take God's name in vain" - and it is pretty easy for everyone to see that. This is not saying anything controversial at all.