Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

Clare73

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"The scriptures are the foundation of my faith AND Peter was never in Rome..
Good Day, PTP
Well you are in good company:
They [heretics] gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures...We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith....
It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and to demonstrate the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these heretics rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries,
Paul did. . .receiving them in the third heaven from Jesus personally (2 Corinthians 12:1-5), regarding predestination, election to salvation, etc., and presenting them throughout his epistles--Romans being a good starting point, then maybe Ephesians next.
which they were in the habit of imparting to 'the perfect' apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves.
For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon to the Church, but if they should fall away, the direst calamity....proofs of the things which are contained in the Scriptures cannot be shown except from the Scriptures themselves." - Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 1:8:1, 3:1:1, 3:3:1, 3:12:9)

Peter in Rome... ok and the moon is made of cheese? I have to suppose you have been in Rome for thousand of years and can attest you have not seen Him there?

In Him,

Bill
 
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Clare73

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And yet if the man cannot help but will otherwise then he's certainly not willing freely either. His will would be determined, if "forced" is objectionable. And if determined, then he couldn't be logically culpable for his sin, let alone worthy of eternal torment.
The issue does not regard the will, the issue regards what controls, influences the will; i.e., the disposition--what one prefers, desires.

Time now to take our learning, not from philosophy's concepts, principles and terms, but from Scripture's.
Adam is the one responsible for the disposition we now inherit, a disposition to self and sin.
Adam is the one responsible for the condemnation into which all are born (Romans 5:18),
for our being by nature (birth) objects of God's wrath (Ephesians 2:3).
We are culpable for Adam's guilt under which we are born, because by our sinning against God, we show that we are in agreement with Adam and deserve what he deserved.

We are culpable, and we are worthy of eternal torment.
 
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Clare73

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But we are called to love them...
Any more than any other Christ rejecters, or anyone else?

All mankind is born on the same footing; i.e., condemnation, Gentile as well as Jew (Romans 5:18).
All mankind has until their death to accept God's remedy for their condemnation, Gentile as well as Jew (John 3:36).
Those who do not receive God's remedy for their condemnation remain in their condemnation, Gentile as well as Jew (John 3:18).
We are to love our neighbor as ourselves, Gentile as well as Jew.
 
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Clare73

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Right, but your not explaining does not help anyone. Are you here to teach what you believe? Remember, your words are public and they are not only to help me alone but others. So why not give a more accurate description in how I am wrong in simple words for everyone to read here?
I have done precisely that, giving accurate explanations of NT teaching, in many of the above to you, as well as in the past.

But you continue to misrepresent what is explained to you.
Until you address accurately what I have explained, you misunderstand/misrepresent the NT teaching presented.
 
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Clare73

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The Bible does teach predestination but NOT unconditional election of individuals apart from the Bible and obedience to the Bible.
The Bible teaches corporate election,
Where do you find corporate election in the NT, in agreement with the whole counsel of God?
God foreknew and preordained a GROUP that would be called Christian to be the elect. Those then that choose to seek and come to God in belief are those who become part of the group Christian, become of the foreknown elect, group. Therefore God has no culpability for those not of the elect group.
Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. There is no corporate mediator.
Moses was the only Mediator in the Old Covenant, and Jesus is the only Mediator between man and God in the New Covenant.
 
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Clare73

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God simply elects (chooses) those He knows based on His foreknowledge of those individuals He knows will accept Him as their Savior.

1 Peter 1:1-2 says that believers are elected according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. So this election is not unconditional as Calvnists would claim.
So God chooses those who first choose him. . .that's not what Jesus said (John 15:16, John 15:19, John 13:18).
 
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Clare73

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Simply put, “Elect” is God seeing us accept Jesus in the future corridors of time,
That is not the Biblical meaning of God's "foreknowledge."
God does not look down the corridors of time and see in advance what men are going to do.

The Biblical meaning is that God knows in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed/ordained that it shall happen.
Isaiah 48:3, Isaiah 45:21
Acts 2:23
- "This man was handed over to by God's set purpose and foreknowledge."
Acts 4:28 - "They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."
Act 15:18 - "Known to the Lord for ages is his work."

God's foreknowledge is not of man's choice and acts, but of God's choice and acts.
and thus He predestines things in our life to make that event favorable for us to accept Jesus. This is perfectly in line with our free will in accepting Jesus. Receiving Jesus is answering the CALL in Matthew 22:14. But the being CHOSEN part in Matthew 22:14 is actually following Jesus in this life. Many Christians today think we do not have to follow Jesus and we are all good with the Lord. But this is simply not the case (See: Matthew 7:26-27).
 
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Carl Emerson

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Any more than any other Christ rejecters, or anyone else?

All mankind is born on the same footing; i.e., condemnation, Gentile as well as Hew (Romans 5:18).
All mankind has until their death to accept God's remedy for their condemnation, Gentile as well as Jew (John 3:36).
Those who do not receive God's remedy for their condemnation remain in their condemnation, Gentile as well as Jew (John 3:18).
We are to love our neighbor as ourselves, Gentile as well as Jew.

Yes, theologically correct...

However apart from this, He can give a special love for a people group - be that Jews or whatever, according to his calling on our lives personally.
 
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Navair2

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Romans 9 is not about election. Romans 9 is about God having mercy on the Gentiles who were not seeking it nor deserving of it.
Romans 9 is about the children of God ( Romans 9:6-8 ).
It is about vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy ( Romans 9:22-24 ), both Jew and Gentile.
This is why He said “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy”. Not according to he who runs..
Exactly.
Not according to who runs ( works ) for it, or uses their belief to get it.

It is of grace, not of man's efforts ( Romans 11:5-6 ) or of works ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).
If a person approaches the Lord with the idea of using something ( anything ) to actually influence the Lord to do something or to gain His unmerited favor, they've missed what grace really is...

It cannot be merited.

If it could, then He would be a respecter of persons.
 
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Navair2

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His foreknowledge of his decree that it shall occur.
How about instead of His foreknowledge of the decree, His foreknowledge of them as persons ( fore loving, as in "before-to-know" ) per Jeremiah 1:5 and Psalms 139:15-16?;)
 
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Navair2

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Amen not to mention that the scriptures specifically state that God does not show partiality and God is just which also means that He judges fairly and impartially.
God is not a respecter of persons in that He does not regard anything they are, possess, or do to grant them His favor and saving grace...

And He always judges righteously.
 
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Navair2

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If they (Israelites) do not continue in unbelief, they will be grafted back in.
Amen.
This is kinda hard to explain by Calvinism.
I've never studied systematic theology per se, so it's hard for me to identify with what "Calvinism" is, exactly.
But I do know what the Bible says and I do agree with what many so-called "Calvinists" say about the Bible.
If they continue or not is up to them
It is if one looks at it as conditional and not as evidential.

In other words, a person can believe themselves into God's kingdom, versus God granting them the new birth, thereby guaranteeing that they will indeed willingly receive His words... instead of automatically rejecting them out of a hardened and rebellious heart.

One is conditional and predicated upon our reaction to God's words, and the other is evidential and based on His work in us through the power of His Spirit changing our hearts, so that the objects of His grace will listen.
 
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Navair2

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Where do we find a "seven-year tribulation" in Scripture?
There is none.
It's 42 months ( 3.5 years ).

See Revelation 13:5-8, Daniel 9:27.
 
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Navair2

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The Bible does not teach man is born totally depraved, that is strictly a man made idea.
Quite the contrary, it is clearly taught in His word:

Romans 1:18-32.
Romans 3:10-18.
John 3:19-20.
Psalms 10.
Psalms 14.
Psalms 53.
Psalms 58:3.
John 5:40.
John 6:37-47.
John 6:64-65.
It is a Calvinistic idea that makes man a victim of sin, it has God unjustly condemning man for an innate inability man would be born with against his will and make God out to be a respecter of persons in choosing which men God will or will not "regenerate" to be saved from this depraved state.
Per God's word, man is not a victim of sin.
God is a victim of man's sin.

I think you may wish to take a look at it from His perspective.

Also, it's not innate inability, it's an unwillingness that is so strong that it becomes inability.
Man's will is squarely on the side of sin and loving it ( Romans 1:30-32, John 3:19-20 ).

Finally, God is not a respecter of persons.
He respects nothing that they are, have or do when it comes to choosing whom He will save.

As Romans 9:14-18 and Exodus 33:19 plainly state,
He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and compassion on whom He will have compassion.
That is what His salvation by grace is based on...

His desire to have mercy and compassion on one, and not another.
 
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Navair2

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Until "dispensationalism" was created from whole cloth in the last couple of centuries, and disagreeing with authoritative NT teaching.
I've never had any use for "Dispensationalism",
and I do not follow John Nelson Darby, Harry Ironside, C.I. Schofield or E.W. Bullinger.

I see the Scriptures clearly teaching a "millennium" in Revelation 20, and I believe it literally.
I see the Scriptures teaching that in the last days, the Lord Jesus shall reign at Jerusalem ( Zechariah 12, Zechariah 14, Micah 4 ) and we as believers will rule and reign with Him ( Revelation 20 ) for exactly 1,000 years.

New Testament authoritative teaching is exactly what I hold to, and I reserve the right to agree or to disagree with Augustine, John Calvin, John Welsey, John R. Rice or Jonathan Edwards as I see fit.

In the end, I follow Jesus Christ and I hear His words alone ( John 8:43-47, John 10:26-27 )...and a stranger I will not follow ( John 10:5 ).:)
 
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Navair2

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However, these are a mere fraction of what he can do when not bound. Don't underestimate the terrifying magnitude of evil.
I think you're giving him more credit than he deserves, sister.
Satan is on a short leash per the book of Job.

He cannot do anything unless the Lord allows it.

Don't underestimate the sheer magnitude of what the Lord can do with a word or a thought.
But right now He is allowing Satan to do many things...
Things that he could not do if he were locked away in the bottomless pit and had a seal set on him so he could not carry out his will.

However, if you wish to go along with Augustine and the Roman Catholic Church on this one, you're free to go with them.
Myself, I won't allegorize that which I don't see as allegory or symbolism.

To me, Revelation 20 is literal, and other parts of Revelation are both literal and symbolic.
 
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d taylor

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Where do we find a "seven-year tribulation" in Scripture?

The tribulation is the church age, the time of trial (John 16:33, Acts 14:22; Romans 5:3, 8:35, 12:12; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, etc.).

For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
 
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Clare73

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How about instead of His foreknowledge of the decree, His foreknowledge of them as persons ( fore loving, as in "before-to-know" ) per Jeremiah 1:5 and Psalms 139:15-16?;)
They are the persons he foreknows because he has preordained and decreed that is who they will be, right?
His election is not based on the person, his election is his sovereign choice to make them that person, right?

Are you saying that in Jeremiah and Psalm 139 there was something God saw in them that caused him to elect them?
Or is it simply God declaring his election before they were created to cause them to be that kind of person, as in Isaiah 48:3:

"I foretold (predestined to election) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced
(decreed) them, and I made them known; (as in Jeremiah 1:5)
then suddenly I acted, they they came to be (were accomplished)."
 
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