Guns and Schools - What Changed?

Fantine said:

I can only speak of my past experience as a PTA president in NY in the 1980's. When I attended their annual convention in NY in the 1980's there were resolutions to ban the sale of TOY guns because they taught children violence.

Although I did not realize it at the time, I guess there were some rural towns here and there in the south and midwest where teens had gun racks on pickup trucks. It bore no relation to the majority of Americans who live in metropolitan areas.

Later, living in South Dakota, I read Sioux Falls wanted to open a gun culture museum. I almost choked, but then the article said as our country became more urbanized guns were becoming irrelevant. Well hallelujah.

But I did not account for the virulence and aggression with which rural America would wage the war for more and more dangerous guns.

As a child and parent, my idea of culture was museums, symphonies, theater, creative arts. Culture was music lessons, not shooting ranges.

National Review is looking through a narrow lens--not America as a whole.

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The [growing] urbanization of America has already been acknowledged as a legitimate factor in the call by some for more gun controls.

But to characterize the opposition by those in favor of gun ownership against those opposed to it - and to a so-called gun 'culture' as some sort of "virulent aggression" and "war" is, well, a bit ironic - given how virulent and aggressive those opposed to gun ownership demonstrably are. In choosing those words, and in describing how you "almost choked" over the notion of a gun culture museum, it is clear how you feel about gun ownership yourself, about gun 'culture.' And I support your right to hold those feelings, but don't presume to think that right somehow trumps the right of others to hold feelings opposite to yours.

That said, to attempt to diminish the issue, the rights of the other side of the issue by characterizing them as some sort of a group of rural of hicks - how did you put it - "I guess there were some rural towns here and there in the south and midwest where teens had gun racks on pickup trucks." - is well... not that flattering of an opinion.

Below is a map of the US at night. What is shows is 1) just how relatively small those urban centers (call it the white space) are in this country compared to that which is rural (the black, not white space). And I daresay there's not a white dot anywhere on this map where BOTH sides of this issue aren't represented.

That "narrow lens" as you put it, through which the National Review is looking is, I daresay, a lot wider than the one some in the opposition are looking through.

Fantine said:

I was speaking from my experience. Long Island, NY. PTA moms.
Women who were so opposed to toy guns that the idea of owning real guns was repugnant and inconceivable.
We wondered where they were. Certainly not in a 100 mile radius of us. Maybe they were closeted gun owners, and hopefully their guns were, too.

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Your experience - Long Island, NY PTA moms who consider the idea of owning real guns "repugnant and inconceivable?" Ok...

Fantine said:

And when my husband's job took him around the country, we heard these legends of guns and pickup trucks long ago. They were always about farm towns.
< snip >

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"We heard these legends?"

FWIW, the school I noted in one of my earlier posts was in no "farm town" (as you lovingly put it), it was in Denver, CO. - though I do realize there are a few back east who consider Denver less than a legitimate metropolis (I have some friends from NYC I'm trying to educate).

Fantine said:

But yes, I Iook at a substantial minority of Americans, well funded by a group that launders Russian campaign funds, trying to endanger the rest of us by fighting sensible, realistic safety regulations for guns "aggressive and virulent."

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Trying to understand - your opinions, and those of a few PTA women you know (maybe it's a lot, dunno) - plus a few "legends of guns and pickup trucks" you heard from long ago, are what form the basis of your feeling that you are being somehow "endangered" by "a substantial minority of people" (a substantial minority of people well-funded by no less than the Russians) trying to maintain their constitutional right to own guns?

Does that about sum it up?

Fantine said:

America has changed. We hate guns. You love them.

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Are "we" not Americans too?

And "love guns?" Hardly. You make it sound like every gun owner has an altar in their home at which they burn incense and utter prayers to some unknown gun gods.

Fantine said:

There are more of us and the status quo harms us. You must compromise.

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Whoa! Shades of George Orwell...

Fantine, I think you can trust me on this, no one is "harming you."

However, everything you've shared thus far is beginning to make me wonder just how much the facts of this topic really matter compared to your fundamental feeling that real gun ownership is "repugnant and inconceivable."

Moreover, I think you've sufficiently demonstrated your inability here to objectively contribute to the topic of this thread without your animosity towards, and bias against guns, gun ownership, gun rights, and anyone who might have anything positive to say about guns surfacing immediately. Not that I didn't enjoy hearing about your PTA group, but lest any further discussion on the topic somehow add to the harm you believe is being inflicted upon you, maybe - and I say this in all love - maybe, just maybe you should consider posting elsewhere.

Fantine said:

Over 80% of Americans want gun controls. They are tired of burying children. Tired of mass shootings. Tired of avoidable murders and suicides.

Besides the fact that lots of people vote for legislators who listen to lobbyists and ignore them, why don't these laws get passed?

I would like New Zealand gun laws, but I realize that's not possible and I can just create a relatively gun free environment through the friends I choose and the places I visit. Imperfect but tolerable.

What bothers me most is the damage I believe carrying weapons everywhere does to people's souls. What is it like to walk around thinking you might have to kill someone today? Shudder. What a soul-crushing burden.

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Again - your comments, and your expressed feelings about guns, gun ownership, those who support both, and your obvious lack of objectivity on the topic of guns in general are not furthering the topic of this thread one iota.

Please - either address the OP, or move on.

ironbjorn said:

As we advanced as a society we discovered that it was probably best not to send all the children to school with murder machines.

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So, via the "zero tolerance" policies towards guns, guns were outlawed in schools and... some say as a consequence, school shootings increased.

Consequent or no, the fact remains, guns were outlawed and shootings increased.

Why?

Nithavela said:

Generally, you have, with the USA, a society that venerates solving conflict through force of arms. Many people point towards things like violent movies and video games as a source of that violence, but they are more a symptom of the underlying issue. Children take up the society they grow up in and mirror it.

This willingness and veneration to solve problems via force of arms is also seen in the reaction to such tragedies. After every mass shooting event, the same story emerges. First hate against the perpetrator and sorrow for the victims, and then, almost without fail, the Hero emerges. The Hero might be a officer of the law, a victim who took a stand or helped others escape, or even a bystander killing or disarming the attacker (which happens far more rarely than people think). The Hero fullfills an important role, he allows people to identify with him. Surely, if such a thing were to happen around them, they think, they'd be the hero too.

Where does this veneration come from? I think it comes from the many wars the USA has fought in the last century. From their heroic actions in the second world war to the not so heroic actions that followed, the us military has been campaigning.

Besides that, I think that there is a certain subset of humans with genes that make them more prone to solve problems like that with violence. They were very usefull in the earlier stages of mankinds development, when you needed young males to beat up another tribes young males for disputes without much regard for themselves. Sadly, our base instincts have stayed largely the same while our weapons have only grown deadlier and easier to use.

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But Nithavela, while I generally agree that a key aspect of the issue is how our society has changed w/r to how it solves conflicts, that doesn't answer the question - what changed?

You can blame it on "gun veneration" but what is the source of that "veneration?" Per the article, such "veneration" certainly didn't exist back when guns were common in schools and kids in both rural AND urban areas (e.g. NYC) routinely carried guns to school for school-sponsored programs like rifle and skeet clubs. The number of gun incidents in schools was far less than what it is today, when guns aren't even allowed in schools.

I don't think "gun veneration" is the issue at all.