I am stuck thinking I need to prove faith to Evolutionists, when the Bible says "they're deluded"

MariaJLM said:

Christianity and evolution are not mutually exclusive either. I'm a Christian, but accept evolution as a scientific fact.

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In genesis, God said, let there be light, if you believe in the big bang theory, then who created the spark that created this, as far as we know, unique world? Why not God? And by what an amazing chance did ice laden metiors crash to earth creating the seas? And what kind of million to one chance did organisms first form? Is it all a spectacular coincidence? I choose to believe in a creator..but..
I don't believe the world as we know it was created in a few days, the bible as far as I know makes no mention of dinosaurs or their extinction, were they part of an experiment that God was disappointed or bored with to the point he sent a metior to destroy them? Maybe he wanted something capable of being more noble and intelligent to create wonderful things, even if the price for that was giving man free will to do evil as well?
CS Lewis wrote, in ' Mere Christianity' A cow can be neither very good nor very bad, a dog can be both better or worse, a child better or worse still, an ordinary man, still more so, a man of genious, still more so, a superhuman spirit best, or worst of all'.

But it’s random. A plant has life no change until some outside force like man changes it. It has no heart or soul. It’s just a scientific function if that. Environment changes it? It’s not consistent enough. Weather change 4 times a year. How did annuals form dying every summer. Life goes down hill why wouldn’t the dna change back you can’t sustain billions of years of growth. Combining of amino acids into a protein doesn’t work through electrolysis. Not enough original amino acids. The primordial soup doesn’t exist. Mater declines to a less complex state, not more complex.

Abide with me. said:

In genesis, God said, let there be light, if you believe in the big bang theory, then who created the spark that created this, as far as we know, unique world?

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According to the man who proposed the Big Bang theory, God did it.

Why not God?

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Funny, that's also what he said.

Abide with me. said:

And by what an amazing chance did ice laden metiors crash to earth creating the seas?

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Gravity and momentum. That's what makes it all work. You see, God set the rules at the beginning, so that it would work according to His will.

Abide with me. said:

And what kind of million to one chance did organisms first form?

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Turns out, He set the rules so that life would be brought forth by the Earth. Thought of everything, didn't He?

Now keep in mind, the Creator didn't just make a self-operating world and walk away from it. He remains intimately involved with every particle in the universe. If He took His mind from it for even a moment, we'd no longer exist.

Abide with me. said:

CS Lewis wrote, in ' Mere Christianity' A cow can be neither very good nor very bad, a dog can be both better or worse, a child better or worse still, an ordinary man, still more so, a man of genious, still more so, a superhuman spirit best, or worst of all'.

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C.S. Lewis was the master of applied Christianity. But I think he's wrong about cows, which clearly are capable of both love and hatred. Dogs seem more so to us, because our long partnership has evolved both of us to understand each other. It does seem to me that our awareness of good and evil is unique or at least uniquely developed so as to make us potential angels or devils as we choose.

Unqualified said:

But it’s random. A plant has life no change until some outside force like man changes it.

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Gardeners will tell you otherwise.

It has no heart or soul.

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No heart, anyway. But at least not a living soul as humans do.

Environment changes it?

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Plants also push back, changing the environment. Would you like to discuss how that works? It's remarkably complex, and plants often communicate with each other chemically. Worth learning.

Weather change 4 times a year.

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Guess how I know you don't live in Texas.

How did annuals form dying every summer.

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Mostly photoperiod and temperature. However, my wife has found she can encourage annuals to live on, and they often do.

Life goes down hill

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It seems to be doing very well right now.

why wouldn’t the dna change back

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Why can't you unstir cake batter? This is actually a very deep question. Would you like to discuss that?

you can’t sustain billions of years of growth.

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So far, it has.

Combining of amino acids into a protein doesn’t work through electrolysis.

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So far, natural peptides have been observed to form on hot volcanic rocks.
Chemical Geology
Volume 510, 5 April 2019, Pages 72-83
Formation of macromolecules with peptide bonds via the thermal evolution of amino acids in the presence of montmorillonite: Insight into prebiotic geochemistry on the early Earth

Not enough original amino acids. The primordial soup doesn’t exist. Mater declines to a less complex state, not more complex.

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See above. You've been misled about that. God is a lot more powerful and wise than many creationists suspect.

Unqualified said:

But it’s random. A plant has life no change until some outside force like man changes it. It has no heart or soul. It’s just a scientific function if that. Environment changes it? It’s not consistent enough. Weather change 4 times a year. How did annuals form dying every summer. Life goes down hill why wouldn’t the dna change back you can’t sustain billions of years of growth. Combining of amino acids into a protein doesn’t work through electrolysis. Not enough original amino acids. The primordial soup doesn’t exist. Mater declines to a less complex state, not more complex.

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Plants grow and mutate too. I don't know why you think entropy stops plants from mutating and growing. You can't say that a plant declines to a less complex state when it sprouts from a seed into a flowing tree. No more does any other life form.

For every plant that dies, a plant first must grow and live. Entropy may drive plants to decay later in life, but entropy clearly doesn't stop a plant from growing and mutating.


I believe that God has used evolution to create us. The above video clarifies on the topic of entropy, regardless of faith or non-faith.

You guys. Use useless information to undermine an argument that has nothing to do with evolution or creation. But I’m not convinced.

Unqualified said:

You guys. Use useless information to undermine an argument that has nothing to do with evolution or creation. But I’m not convinced.

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You had suggested that entropy would prevent evolution from happening.

But the truth is that any system can decrease in entropy given that it acquires energy from beyond itself.

And so a plant may be driven to decay and die due to entropy. But the plant can also grow and bloom as it pulls energy from the sun. Just the same, entropy can lead a life form to die. And just the same life can gather energy from outside sources that allows life to grow and evolve.

And it's really that simple.

So when I eat a cheeseburger and my body processes that cheeseburger into energy, and then I go and my muscles grow bigger, entropy has not stopped me from growing or changing. And just the same entropy doesn't stop any processes in evolution. Entropy doesn't stop us from mutating. It doesn't stop us from having children that pass on those mutations. Etc.

In fact, there is not one process, required for evolution, that is prohibited by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

Not one.

Gottservant said:

You gotta either praise God for the Universal Blueprint, or celebrate God for the Master Design - in principle.

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You're selling God short. He's not an architect, and He's not a designer. He is the Creator. And He has no need to "design." That is what limited creatures do.

Gottservant said:

And how does that help the blueprint or the design?

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There is no "blueprint or design." He is the omnipotent Creator. He has no need to figure out anything.

You are not actually offering anything in the way of praise? (disingenuously?)

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I'm just acknowledging His unique omnipotence. You seem to want to demote Him to a mere "designer."

And that's highly disrespectful to Him.

Gottservant said:

This is a classic example, of the problem of Evolutionists being deluded by God:

If I put it to "Evolutionists" that they are not improving 'Evolution', they are going to have a field day: saying I don't understand it, it doesn't need to be improved and my trying to interpret it that way is proof that I don't understand it. I don't want that.

But what is the alternative? That Evolutionists take over what they consider an improvement and force it on others - I can see why God would prefer they just remain deluded?

So I don't know, I feel like I am on God's side and that help (true works of God) is coming, I just have to bear in mind, that it is not an argument won by invoking some kind of higher order. I guess that makes sense.

I just have always felt that I am worth, more than a two bit assumption that Heaven will make it "alright"?

What do you think?

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1. It’s very unkind to simply classify any unbelievers as “deluded.” We are to treat others as we’d like to be treated.

2. A LOT of Christians are deluded and Jesus knows this describing MANY who will come to Him expecting a welcome who will be told to go away. They were deluded in life.

3. For the evolutionist, everyone who doesn’t believe their position is ignorant because they cannot imagine it differently. That an intelligent highly educated man rejects evolution is not to be tolerated.

Dorothy Mae said:

For the evolutionist, everyone who doesn’t believe their position is ignorant because they cannot imagine it differently. That an intelligent highly educated man rejects evolution is not to be tolerated.

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There are lots of highly-educated people who reject evolution. Not a large percentage, but still a lot of them. No reason for anyone not to tolerate them. From a Christian standpoint, they aren't any less likely to be saved than someone who does accept evolution.

And from a scientific viewpoint, it doesn't harm the truth in the slightest, no matter how many people object to it.

personally, whilst i love debating idiots and their stupid world views, honestly, it doesnt really seem to get anywhere.
My dad is a minister, a long time ago he stopped outreaching to others preaching this perspective. He now simply preaches the one thing that atheism cannot offer...Jesus!
God told us many many centuries ago that he would send the holy spirit out before us, it is the holy spirit that does the converting. In the New Covenant, God foretold us (long before Jesus was incarnated actually) that he would "write His laws in our hearts".
God speaks directly to the heart, i think our job is to help fill in the blanks and provide friendship and fellowship to those who seek Him. I am sure many times, people do not even realise they are seeking God until they interact with someone who has already found Him (that was certainly the case with my own fathers transformation whilst i was young). He knew that he wanted something more, there had to be something more, he needed answers to questions that only Christianity can provide (he tried Buddhism among other alternatives).

My personal thought is, as mere humans we are easily convinced by lies. One only has to look at how many seemingly intelligent people are conned by scammers! From a Christian perspective, how do i ensure my own faith can withstand the confusion around me? That is why i debate with atheists and other denominations...it is not for their benefit but mine. I need to know that i have researched my own faith and that it stands the weathering of storms! (sounds selfish i suppose)

The Barbarian said:

There are lots of highly-educated people who reject evolution. Not a large percentage, but still a lot of them. No reason for anyone not to tolerate them. From a Christian standpoint, they aren't any less likely to be saved than someone who does accept evolution.

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They’re more likely to be saved since their faith more accurately depicts the Word of God.

And from a scientific viewpoint, it doesn't harm the truth in the slightest, no matter how many people object to it.

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Same with believing God created Adam as a man, not an ape form.

There are lots of highly-educated people who reject evolution. Not a large percentage, but still a lot of them. No reason for anyone not to tolerate them. From a Christian standpoint, they aren't any less likely to be saved than someone who does accept evolution.

Dorothy Mae said:

They’re more likely to be saved since their faith more accurately depicts the Word of God.

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No. For two reasons.
1. God doesn't care what you think of evolution.
2. Creationists' faith in creationism far more accurately depicts the word of Kent Hovind than the Word of God.

And from a scientific viewpoint, it doesn't harm the truth in the slightest, no matter how many people object to it.

Same with believing God created Adam as a man, not an ape form.

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Which is like saying He created gorillas as gorillas, not an ape form. We are apes. In fact, we and chimpanzees are more closely related to each other than either is to other apes. Phenotypically, genetically, and in term of transitional fossils, so it's not just a few sources of evidence.