Omniscience

TedT

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FreeGrace2 said:
What is the basis for being chosen for salvation?

God's purpose and will. . .same as election of Jacob
GOD does not desire nor take pleasure in the death and damnation of anyone...your willingness to contradict the scripture about this is too Calvinistic for me.

HIS does all for his own pleasure so HIS purpose and will cannot contradict what HE wants and what pleases HIM only man made doctrine.
 
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TedT

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You are damned (condemned) by Adam's guilt (Romans 5:18; Ephesians 2:3).
...but in your doctrine it was GOD who chose to make me in Adam as a sinner and not like Adam in innocence.

Can we say the same of the Judge at the County Courthouse who sentences one to death, or life in prison--that he is not loving and righteous?
False dichotomy.

If the Judge sets it up so the man is a criminal and causes his crimes then yes, the judge is guilty. GOD did not do this...

I my understanding our Judge is righteous because HE gave us the free will ability to be holy or to sin and we chose sin - HE did not choose us to become sinners for some purpose of HIS own, we chose to be sinners because we thought it was a good idea at the time.
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Light cannot create darkness.

A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
GOODNESS cannot bring forth evil.
Inherited sin or sin by the will of GOD is anathema.
Can we say the same of the Judge at the County Courthouse who sentences one to death, or life in prison?
 
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Clare73

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Chosen for no known reason to be saved or destroyed. RIIIIGHT....no difference at all.
Is God required to give you his purpose or reason?

Demonstrate your view from the whole counsel of God.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
God gave Adam only 1 prohibition in the garden.
...yet though deemed to be innocent by many, Adam was given a command which must not conflict with
1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, etc, etc.
The big difference is that Adam wasn't created sinful, but everyone born is sinful.

...the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels - time to rethink Adam's status perhaps as supposedly the only innocent person to be given a command.
Didn't apply to Adam.

It is well within the meaning of the words to think that Adam and Eve were already sinful when they were sown, (planted, not created) in the garden as per Matt 13:36-39.
Nonsense. Read Gen 1:26,27. In v.26 we find 'asah', which means to make out of existing materials. Adam was formed from the dust of the ground.

v.27 has "barah" which means to create out of nothing. So the 2 verses show that Adam's body was made, and his soul was created.

To claim that God created Adam as "already sinful" is absurd.

The other problem with Adam being innocent in the garden is that when their eyes were opened to their sin, they saw the nakedness they had before they ate, not the sin of their eating. Both the Hebrew word `rm used as a hominem for evil and their eyes being opened to their previously held nakedness (an oft used metaphor for sinfulness) imply that by having this condition before they ate imply strongly they were already sinners when they ate.
I'm not going to get into the details, but there is scientific evidence even now that living bone is an led (light emitting diode). It is entirely possible that Adam and Eve actually glowed. And when they sinned, they lost the glow, which revealed a changed body.

So it wasn't about being too stupid to know they had no clothes on. Duh. Without a glow, they were left with nothing. That was their nakedness.

Then there is the small point of Adam being the first to bring sin into the world. In my book the serpent entered the garden with sinful intent to sin and tempted Eve, the first to sin. Then Eve ate, the second to sin and tempted Adam, the third to sin, when he ate.
OK. Your point?

It makes sense to say Adam brought sin into the world if Adam was a sinner when he was moved from Sheol into his human body and as the first person in the garden, was the first to bring evil into world.
Where do you get this notion that Adam "was moved from Sheol into his human body"?? Sounds kinda weird.

Adam was the first to sin, yes. But evil pre-existed Adam as you noted about Satan. So evil began with Satan.

This is a logical explanation of the words and story that supports my contention Adam and Eve were sinners before they ate the fruit
This is absurd. Then you are basically saying that God created sin.

You need to study Gen 2:17 - but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when (the day) you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Did Adam or the woman collapse and die physically when they ate the fruit? No, they didn't. What happened was they died spiritually. And lost their glow.

That's when they became sinners. When they sinned. Not 1 millisecond before.
 
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Clare73

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...but in your doctrine it was GOD who chose to make me in Adam as a sinner and not like Adam in innocence.
Not if in the nature of creation, it was the inevitable consequence of Adam's sin, like in the nature of creation, the inevitable consequence of going up is coming down--what goes up must come down.
Clare73 said:
Can we say the same of the Judge at the County Courthouse who sentences one to death, or life in prison--that he is not loving and righteous?
False dichotomy.
It's not a dichotomy, its a perfect parallel. . .show where it fails.
If the Judge sets it up so the man is a criminal and causes his crimes then yes, the judge is guilty. GOD did not do this...
Exactly, God did not "set up" Adam's sin, God did not "set up" the baked-in consequences of Adam's sin, and
did not "set up" the "mutation" which Adam's progeny inherit.
I my understanding our Judge is righteous because HE gave us the free will ability to be holy or to sin and we chose sin - HE did not choose us to become sinners for some purpose of HIS own,
The Judge of the world is righteous because he is just; i.e., giving everyone his due.
HE did not choose us to become sinners for some purpose of HIS own, we chose to be sinners because we thought it was a good idea at the time.
Agreed, Adam made us sinners by his rebellion.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Could you point me to the verse that says election is to salvation? I've looked at every verse that has the Greek word that is commonly translated as "elect/election" and NONE of them mention salvation. I know it's a calvinist doctrine, but where does the Bible say election is for or to salvation?
I am most decidedly NOT a Calvinist and abhor the doctrine of unconditional election
Then why do you defend their doctrine?

but every verse about election refers to things that can only happen after our redemption and sanctification which is the meaning of the process of salvation...
That's the point. Election per Eph 1:4 is about believers who are chosen to be holy and blameless.

btw, Jesus Christ Himself is described as being "the Chosen One" or "the Elect One" and He was never 'redeemed' in the first place.

And Judas himself was chosen (elected) per John 6:70. And he wasn't saved.

The whole nation (people) of Israel were a chosen nation and you cannot argue that every single Jew in the OT was saved. Not even close.
 
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Clare73

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I champion the need for our free will or the heavenly marriage based upon love for GOD is a sham.

I also completely deny that sinners have a free will here on earth...it is frankly impossible when we are enslaved by the addictive power of evil.
...at least until their rebirth when it seems like their free will is restored, Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
This refers to freedom from the law, not freedom of the will.
Preaamble:
Some people were there when GOD created the physical universe, ie, they were created before the physical universe and sang HIS praises with joy: Job 38:7 ...while the morning stars sang together and all the Sons of GOD shouted for joy? when they witnessed this display of HIS deity and power. The words "sons of GOD" are literal, but interpreted for us as angels to make it easier for us to understand how this verse does not contradict the created on earth theory. <headshake, facepalm>
And you know this, how?
Angels are sons of God in the church (Hebrews 12:22-23).
Conclusion:
I believe that this group of people contained every person created in HIS image as innocent with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to put their faith in YHWH OR to reject HIM as a liar and a false god. Those who choose faith in HIM were chosen by HIM, ie elected, and promised salvation for all future sin to become HIS heavenly Bride once all evil was eradicated. Then some elect rebelled against the call for the judgement forcing it to be postponed so they would not be caught up in the destruction for their sin
Don't know what book you got this fantasy from, but you certainly did not get it from the word of God written.
Matt 13:28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ [bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.
That refers to the tares in the church, those whose faith is not genuine.
The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the seed and the only maturity which saves a sinner from the judgement is the maturity of sanctification.

Thus we live together with those demons who rejected HIM as a liar and a fase god, sinners all, our free will held captive by evil from our foolish rebellion to HIS call to come out from among them and touch not their uncleanness.
Was that the call to judgment refused by the elect?

That's quite a fantasy you've got there. . .nowhere found in the word of God written.
 
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