Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

HosannaHM · May 7, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, the topic of this thread is Predestination vs. Seeking, Knocking, and Answering the Door.

According to Google:

“In Calvinist (Reformed) theology, unconditional election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which God chooses certain individuals to be saved. Those elected receive mercy, while those not elected, the reprobates, receive justice without condition.”

So I am only speaking in line with the thread topic discussion. I also used Scripture to refute this false thinking by Calvinists, as well.

We can go back and forth all day. I think you know what I'm saying. Come on- look at the content of my post and the word "elect". Perhaps you aren't willing

HosannaHM · May 7, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
In Luke 13:3, in shortened words, Jesus says, “repent or perish.”
Now, think about that for a moment.
The Non-Elect cannot repent, and the Elect cannot perish.
So either Jesus was not aware of Calvinism and He was in error, or Calvinism is simply not true.
I am going to go with the fact that Calvinism is not true and Jesus was telling the truth in how things really are.

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3).

Or the 3rd option: you don't understand the doctrines of grace

HosannaHM · May 7, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Throughout the Bible we see God get angry at sin. This does not make any sense for God to do this if God simply is the One who can change how people are. God can Elect somebody and change them to such a point where they cannot break His commands if Calvinism was true. So there is no need for God to ever get angry at sin or the wicked. After all, He is the One who determines who is saved or not saved, right? This is why Calvinism is totally illogical.

Or it makes perfect sense in the mind of God and man is the one having the hard time understanding. I can use the plain reading of the scriptures and see how God makes the first move, and man responds.

HosannaHM · May 7, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Hence God showing partiality offering salvation to some that don’t deserve it but not to all who equally do not deserve it.

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Whoops.

HosannaHM · May 7, 2021

To whom it may concern: If you're bouncing around the internet, coming to Christian Forums for all your answers, spending all your time arguing soteriology with keyboard warriors, do yourself a favor: Read your bible, get plugged in to a local church, and take the gospel to the lost. This bantering on here can get pretty pathetic. Don't take my word for it or anyone on here that acts like they're an expert: study to show yourself approved by God. Examine my words as well as others. Learn about the Chief Dragon Slayer Himself: Jesus Christ! I say this with love for all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Clare73 · May 7, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
So you disagree with this statement?

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads YOU to repentance
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4‬ ‭NASB1995

‬‬In regard to the Jews of NT times, to whom it was addressed, they mistook God's patience for indifference, for a lack of intent to judge, it did not lead them to repentance regarding their judgmental attitude (2:1).

Romans 1 was not about these people. Notice Paul uses the words “they” and “them” in chapter 1 but in chapter 2 he uses the words “you” and “your”.

Romans is addressed to the Roman church made up of Gentiles and Jews, presenting to them for the first time the teaching of an apostle regarding the basic system of salvation, which begins with the unrighteousness of all mankind.
Romans 1 is about the unrighteousness of the Gentiles (they and them) who had no special revelation of God, only natural revelation (in nature), and establishing their unrighteousness prior to the NT.

Romans 2 is about the Jews (you and your), who had special revelation of God prior to the NT, and who passed judgment on the Gentiles; showing the unrighteousness of the Jews; and thereby establishing the unrighteousness of all mankind (Roman 3:9-10).

In that context, Paul is showing the Jews they had no cause for judging the Gentiles, for they were also guilty of doing the same things as the Gentiles did (2:1). He reminds them that if they do the same things for which they pass judgment on others, they will likewise be judged.

Then in vv. 2-16, he digresses (not unusual for Paul) on God's judgment, discussing the principles of judgment according to deeds, of which the Jews are just as guilty; and returning to the Jews' situation in v. 17.

So in v.4 of his digression on judgment, he is applying it to the Jews' (you and your) judgment of the Gentiles, for which God is giving the Jews time for repentance.

“God’s patience and kindness is leading YOU to repentance but because of YOUR stubbornness…” Paul is not talking about the those whom God has handed over to a reprobate mind in chapter 2. In chapter 2 Paul is writing to those whom God is still showing patience towards.

Yes, that is the Jews. . .patience for the Jews' judging the Gentiles for their depravity of chp 1.

If they do not repent, then ignoring Gods patience with them will add to their guilt.

BNR32FAN · May 7, 2021

HosannaHM said:
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Whoops.

Amen God has His reasons for what He does. What’s your point? Are you trying to say that one scripture says God does not show partiality but another scripture says He does?

Clare73 · May 7, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Foreordain is a completely different word.

Yes, it is. . .which has no relevance to its being the object of foreknowledge.

BNR32FAN · May 7, 2021

Clare73 said:
‬‬In regard to the Jews of NT times, to whom it was addressed, they mistook God's patience for indifference, for a lack of intent to judge, it did not lead them to repentance regarding their judgmental attitude (2:1).
Romans is addressed to the Roman church made up of Gentiles and Jews, presenting to them for the first time the teaching of an apostle regarding the basic system of salvation, and begins with the unrighteousness of all mankind.
Romans 1 is about the unrighteousness of the Gentiles (they and them) who had no special revelation of God, only natural revelation (in nature), and establishing their unrighteousness prior to the NT.

Romans 2 is about the Jews (you and your), who had special revelation of God prior to the NT, and who passed judgment on the Gentiles; establishing the unrighteousness of the Jews; thereby establishing the unrighteousness of all mankind (Roman 3:9-10).

In that context, Paul is showing the Jews they had no cause for judging the Gentiles, for they were also guilty of doing the same things as the Gentiles did (2:1). He reminds them that if they do the same things for which they pass judgment on others, they will likewise be judged.

Then in vv. 2-16, he digresses (not unusual for Paul) on God's judgment, discussing the principles of judgment according to deeds, of which the Jews are just as guilty; and returning to the Jews' situation in v. 17.

So in v.4 of his digression on judgment, he is applying it to the Jews' (you and your) judgment of the Gentiles, for which God is giving the Jews time for repentance.
Yes, that is the Jews. . .patience for the Jews' judging the Gentiles for their depravity of chp 1.

If they do not repent, then ignoring Gods patience with them will add to their guilt.

Romans 2:1-16 Paul is not addressing the Jews he’s addressing everyone, both Jew and Gentile. Paul doesn’t begin addressing the Jews until verse 17.

“Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Bible Highlighter · May 7, 2021

HosannaHM said:
To whom it may concern: If you're bouncing around the internet, coming to Christian Forums for all your answers, spending all your time arguing soteriology with keyboard warriors, do yourself a favor: Read your bible, get plugged in to a local church, and take the gospel to the lost. This bantering on here can get pretty pathetic. Don't take my word for it or anyone on here that acts like they're an expert: study to show yourself approved by God. Examine my words as well as others. Learn about the Chief Dragon Slayer Himself: Jesus Christ! I say this with love for all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Most churches I attended over the years are not helpful in knowing what God’s Word says. 2 Timothy 2:15 says we are to study to show ourselves approved unto God.

Also, again, why does God get angry at sin if it is His sovereign choice for them to remain in their sin? Couldn’t God just elect them and thereby not be angry?

Luke 13:3, we learn that Jesus basically says repent or perish. The Non-elect cannot repent and the Elect cannot perish. So Calvinism is not true.

HosannaHM · May 7, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Amen God has His reasons for what He does. What’s your point? Are you trying to say that one scripture says God does not show partiality but another scripture says He does?

No brother... I'm saying the scripture "for God shows no partiality" is in accordance with Jew/Gentile. The whole passage tracks with that thought. God doesn't show any more favor to the Jews than the Gentiles when it comes to salvation. However, He has mercy on whom He has mercy, and He can save whoever He wants to save. After all, He's God.

HosannaHM · May 7, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Right, so then why does God get angry at sin if it is His sovereign choice for them to remain in their sin? Couldn’t God just elect them and thereby not be angry?

Luke 13:3, we learn that Jesus basically says repent or perish. The Non-elect cannot repent and the Elect cannot perish. So Calvinism is not true.

How can what I posted invoke this reaction? My friend, you have a dog to hunt. Be careful with your hatred for the doctrines of grace: it's gonna be really awkward for you if you find out you're wrong.

I'm willing to admit that my doctrines could be wrong- can you?

Bible Highlighter · May 7, 2021

HosannaHM said:
How can what I posted invoke this reaction? My friend, you have a dog to hunt. Be careful with your hatred for the doctrines of grace: it's gonna be really awkward for you if you find out you're wrong.

I'm willing to admit that my doctrines could be wrong- can you?

No offense, but I see Calvinism as about as illogical as a flat Earth belief. There is very scant Scriptural evidence for Calvinism. Only Romans 9 read out of context to the rest of the Bible and a few other verses also taken out of context appears to suggest it. Also one has to ignore a mountain of evidence of Scripture in support of free will in choosing God. There are tons of other verses that cannot be true if Calvinism was true. For example: See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10, Luke 13:3, Deuteronomy 30:19, Jonah 3:6-10, John 3:18, Matthew 23:37, 1 John 2:2, etc.; Calvinism also goes against goodness of God and how He is not a respecter of persons. Calvinism has so many glaring holes and illogical inconsistencies and contradictions, it is really amazing anyone believes in it. But I believe it fits a certain personality type and so that is why certain folks latch on to it, and they never let it go.

BNR32FAN · May 7, 2021

Clare73 said:
Yes, it is. . .which has no relevance to its being the object of foreknowledge.

That doesn’t make any sense. Your saying that the people mentioned in 1 Peter 1:1-2 were preordained according to God’s foreknowledge of preordaining them. When Peter says they were chosen that’s referring to their election before creation. They weren’t chosen at that time when Peter wrote his epistle they were chosen before anyone existed according to God’s foreknowledge of whether or not they would repent and abide in Christ. God didn’t choose them before creation then choose them again when they became alive they were already chosen before anyone existed. So I’m sorry but your explanation is not making sense.

friend of · May 7, 2021

If they (Israelites) do not continue in unbelief, they will be grafted back in.

This is kinda hard to explain by Calvinism. If they continue or not is up to them

Clare73 · May 7, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
That doesn’t make any sense. Your saying that
the people mentioned in 1 Peter 1:1-2 were preordained according to God’s foreknowledge of preordaining them

Correct. . .meaning God's foreknowledge is choosing them and also ordaining their purpose in advance; i.e., obedience to Jesus Christ,
(where the Trinity--the Father chooses, the Son sprinkles and the Holy Spirit sanctifies--accomplishes that purpose).

When Peter says they were chosen that’s referring to their election before creation. They weren’t chosen at that time when Peter wrote his epistle they were chosen before anyone existed according to God’s foreknowledge of whether or not they would repent and abide in Christ. God didn’t choose them before creation then choose them again when they became alive they were already chosen before anyone existed. So I’m sorry but your explanation is not making sense.

Peter is speaking of the foreknowledge I've stated above.

Clare73 · May 7, 2021

friend of said:
If they (Israelites) do not continue in unbelief, they will be grafted back in.

This is kinda hard to explain by Calvinism. If they continue or not is up to them

All judgment of men is based on the evidence of their actions which show whether they are saved or unsaved.

BNR32FAN · May 7, 2021

Clare73 said:
Correct. . .meaning God's foreknowledge is choosing them and ordaining their purpose in advance (where the Trinity--the Father chooses, the Son sprinkles and the Holy Spirit sanctifies, for obedience to Jesus Christ).
Peter is speaking of the foreknowledge I've stated above.

You don’t see that your saying that God chose them twice? He chose them before the foundation of the world then He chose them again after they were alive? Why would He choose people He’s already chosen? The choice was already made.

HosannaHM · May 7, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
No offense, but I see Calvinism as about as illogical as a flat Earth belief. There is very scant Scriptural evidence for Calvinism. Only Romans 9 read out of context to the rest of the Bible and a few other verses also taken out of context appears to suggest it. Also one has to ignore a mountain of evidence of Scripture in support of free will in choosing God. There are tons of other verses that cannot be true if Calvinism was true. For example: See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10, Luke 13:3, Deuteronomy 30:19, Jonah 3:6-10, John 3:18, Matthew 23:37, 1 John 2:2, etc.; Calvinism also goes against goodness of God and how He is not a respecter of persons. Calvinism has so many glaring holes and illogical inconsistencies and contradictions, it is really amazing anyone believes in it. But I believe it fits a certain personality type and so that is why certain folks latch on to it, and they never let it go.

That response was kind of robotic.
Let’s try this route: I’m willing to admit I could be wrong about some things- are you?

HosannaHM · May 7, 2021

Does anyone come to a thread like this to actually grow or does everyone just like to argue?

I’m reflecting on my own motives too.

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