Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

BNR32FAN said:

So your saying that His kindness and patience was not leading them to repentance.

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Not if they didn't come to repentance, it can be a form of judgment to increase guilt.

We see God increasing guilt in Romans 1:18-32, where God punished their sin by turning them over to sin to increase their guilt.

Clare73 said:

Not in Scripture, where it includes foreordaining.

Those whom (not things or events) he foreknew (according to his decree of election) he predestined, called, justified, glorified.

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Foreordain is a completely different word.

Clare73 said:

Not if they didn't come to repentance, it can be a form of judgment to increase guilt.

We see God increasing guilt in Romans 1:18-32, where God punished their sin by turning them over to sin to increase their guilt.

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So you disagree with this statement?

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads YOU to repentance
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Romans 1 was not about these people. Notice Paul uses the words “they” and “them” in chapter 1 but in chapter 2 he uses the words “you” and “your”. “God’s patience and kindness is leading YOU to repentance but because of YOUR stubbornness…” Paul is not talking about the those whom God has handed over to a reprobate mind in chapter 2. In chapter 2 Paul is writing to those whom God is still showing patience towards. God ran out of patience for those in chapter 1.

Points To Ponder said:

Pastor, the RCC church has a proven track record of gross sins from the early formation of the RCC up until today. Their dealings in WWII, Bank Fraud, Protecting Pedofiels, proven forgeries, not to mention all the many strange things that have taken place. The current Pope's efforts to establish a One World Religion is prophetic. Many believe the Pope / Papacy is the false prophet in end times. I'm not a fan of their doctrine and their history cannot be ignored.

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My church is not the "Roman Church," it is the Catholic Church. "Catholic" means "universal." Unfortunately charitable acts of monetary donations, one type of indulgence, was easy for some individuals to take advantage of. The Council of Trent stated: "Since the power of granting indulgences has been given to the Church by Christ, and since the Church from the earliest times has made use of this Divinely given power, the holy synod teaches and ordains that the use of indulgences, as most salutary to Christians and as approved by the authority of the councils, shall be retained in the Church; and it further pronounces anathema against those who either declare that indulgences are useless or deny that the Church has the power to grant them (Enchridion, 989). It is therefore of faith (de fide)"

BNR32FAN said:

So you disagree with this statement?

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads YOU to repentance
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Romans 1 was not about these people. Notice Paul uses the words “they” and “them” in chapter 1 but in chapter 2 he uses the words “you” and “your”. “God’s patience and kindness is leading YOU to repentance but because of YOUR stubbornness…” Paul is not talking about the those whom God has handed over to a reprobate mind in chapter 2. In chapter 2 Paul is writing to those whom God is still showing patience towards. God ran out of patience for those in chapter 1.

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No no no.... context matters. See post #121

HosannaHM said:

I have no trouble reconciling "whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord" with "chosen before the foundation of the world". If one is born again, not of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God, they will call upon the Lord because the affections of the heart have changed. Of course we decide, but a dead man (Ephesians 2:1,2) must be born again to desire God. The question is not a matter of choice. Of course we choose. The question is why do we choose?

I don't find the illustration simple/easy to understand at all. It's like picking a baseball team but not getting anyone to be on the team. Hope we have enough when the game starts. How impersonal that is too. Paul talks about the riches of being known by Christ, being predestined in LOVE before the foundation of the world. I find it to be changing the meaning of a term to fit into a theological framework. A God of our own choosing.

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Born again is when when chooses to obey the gospel by being water baptized. Those that choose to obey the gospel therefore are the ones who become part of the elect group while those who "obey not" (2 Thessalonians 1:8) are not part of the elect group.

Again, if God alone chooses FOR MAN which men will be elect and not elect then God becomes culpable for those that and makes God a respecter of persons when He is not. So it is a matter of WHO is doing the choosing, God or man. If God chooses then He has culpability and showing respect of persons. Man choosing then man has the culpability, accountability for his own choices. Man is not born totally depraved needing "regeneration" for again such makes God culpable and respecter of persons as to whom He will or will not "regenerate".

HosannaHM said:

No no no.... context matters. See post #121

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HosannaHM said:

I don't see how this is a "gotcha verse". Paul shifts from speaking about Gentiles in Romans 1 to Jews in Romans 2 who were tempted to trust in themselves because they were biological children of Abraham. He will go on to talk about a righteousness from God by faith as opposed to righteousness attained by the law- the point of the passage you quoted.

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Why is this even relevant to the discussion? Paul wasn’t addressing any particular group in verses 1-16 he was addressing everyone.

“Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:1-10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He doesn’t start addressing Jews specifically until verse 17 which is still irrelevant to the discussion anyway because the fact is that God has bestowed grace upon these people and they are still refusing to repent of their evil ways.

Butterball1 said:

Born again is when when chooses to obey the gospel by being water baptized. Those that choose to obey the gospel therefore are the ones who become part of the elect group while those who "obey not" (2 Thessalonians 1:8) are not part of the elect group.

Again, if God alone chooses FOR MAN which men will be elect and not elect then God becomes culpable for those that and makes God a respecter of persons when He is not. So it is a matter of WHO is doing the choosing, God or man. If God chooses then He has culpability and showing respect of persons. Man choosing then man has the culpability, accountability for his own choices. Man is not born totally depraved needing "regeneration" for again such makes God culpable and respecter of persons as to whom He will or will not "regenerate".

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Brother, that's not what scripture teaches about depravity and regeneration (Ephesians 2:1,2 / John 3:8 / 1 Peter 1:3). I think your premise of culpability is blinding to you to the plain reading of scripture. I'm certain I have faulty premises too, and I pray for God to reveal them to me. God is not a man, nor does He think like a man. His thoughts are higher. I don't have to defend or make excuses for His character, and neither do you. His Word is enough. Does that make sense? I'm not forcing Calvinistic ideology into the scripture, I'm just seeking to understand the whole council of God. If we try to force free will to avoid God being responsible for wrath given to some, then we will operate on that premise to make it fit. We don't have to do that.

BNR32FAN said:

Why is this even relevant to the discussion? Paul wasn’t addressing any particular group in verses 1-16 he was addressing everyone.

“Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:1-10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He doesn’t start addressing Jews specifically until verse 17 which is still irrelevant to the discussion anyway because the fact is that God has bestowed grace upon these people and they are still refusing to repent of their evil ways.

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It is relevant. I'm not trying to force anything on the text. But you said Jews aren't mentioned until verse 17, and yet, that tracks with the whole thought Paul is laying out. Just because that's when he mentions the word "Jew" that does not mean he just began addressing Jews. It's not verse against verse. It's this: what is the whole of scripture teaching? Context is always relevant to the discussion

HosannaHM said:

I know this, but we weren't talking about Calvinism and unconditional election were we? We were talking about what the bible plainly says. Just simply looking at the word "elect" gives the idea of God choosing, not us. You may think I believe the bible through the lens of Calvinism. Nope. I'm just reading the bible and coming to the conclusion that Scripture teaches.

It seems like you're wanting to move the goalpost to talk about Calvinism, and I'm just talking Scripture.

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The thread topic is Predestination in the Calvinistic sense vs Seeking, Knocking, and Answering the Door. So that is the topic of this thread. This would of course be in line with with what Scripture says. Again, Election is based on God the Father's foreknowledge according to 1 Peter 1:1-2. So God elects based on what He knows we are going to do in the future. The view that teaches that God elects in the Calvinistic sense is not supported by Scripture (Except maybe a surface glance reading of Romans 9 - that ignores the cross references of other Scripture verses like: Malachi 1:2-4, Jeremiah 18, Exodus 7:13-14, Exodus 7:22; Exodus 8:15, Exodus 8:19, Exodus 8:32; Exodus 9:7, Exodus 9:34-35.

Bible Highlighter said:

The thread topic is Predestination in the Calvinistic sense vs Seeking, Knocking, and Answering the Door. So that is the topic of this thread. This would of course be in line with with what Scripture says. Again, Election is based on God the Father's foreknowledge according to 1 Peter 1:1-2. So God elects based on what He knows we are going to do in the future. The view that teaches that God elects in the Calvinistic sense is not supported by Scripture (Except maybe a surface glance reading of Romans 9 - that ignores the cross references of other Scripture verses like: Malachi 1:2-4, Jeremiah 18, Exodus 7:13-14, Exodus 7:22; Exodus 8:15, Exodus 8:19, Exodus 8:32; Exodus 9:7, Exodus 9:34-35.

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Amen not to mention that the scriptures specifically state that God does not show partiality and God is just which also means that He judges fairly and impartially.

Bible Highlighter said:

The thread topic is Predestination in the Calvinistic sense vs Seeking, Knocking, and Answering the Door. So that is the topic of this thread. This would of course be in line with with what Scripture says. Again, Election is based on God the Father's foreknowledge according to 1 Peter 1:1-2. So God elects based on what He knows we are going to do in the future. The view that teaches that God elects in the Calvinistic sense is not supported by Scripture (Except maybe a surface glance reading of Romans 9 - that ignores the cross references of other Scripture verses like: Malachi 1:2-4, Jeremiah 18, Exodus 7:13-14, Exodus 7:22; Exodus 8:15, Exodus 8:19, Exodus 8:32; Exodus 9:7, Exodus 9:34-35.

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Okay let me be clear: I wasn't talking about unconditional election- you brought it up, and ignored the point of my post. Again, just like the other thread. My post was about the word "elect"- you made it about something else. Textbook moving the goalpost to something else when you don't have an answer and want to switch gears. Unless you exchange your highlighter for a sharpie, you're not getting around the words elect, called, chosen, and predestined. Sure you can augment passages to fit your theological framework, but God's truth will still stand. The plain reading of the verses will still stand.

BNR32FAN said:

Amen not to mention that the scriptures specifically state that God does not show partiality and God is just which also means that He judges fairly and impartially.

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Yup, and this still fits in reformed theology

HosannaHM said:

Yup, and this still fits in reformed theology

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except for the part about God being impartial. Allow me to prove that. Does God make salvation available to everyone?

HosannaHM said:

Okay let me be clear: I wasn't talking about unconditional election- you brought it up, and ignored the point of my post. Again, just like the other thread. My post was about the word "elect"- you made it about something else. Textbook moving the goalpost to something else when you don't have an answer and want to switch gears. Unless you exchange your highlighter for a sharpie, you're not getting around the words elect, called, chosen, and predestined. Sure you can augment passages to fit your theological framework, but God's truth will still stand. The plain reading of the verses will still stand.

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Again, the topic of this thread is Predestination vs. Seeking, Knocking, and Answering the Door.

According to Google:


So I am only speaking in line with the thread topic discussion. I also used Scripture to refute this false thinking by Calvinists, as well.

Bible Highlighter said:

In Calvinist (Reformed) theology, unconditional election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which God chooses certain individuals to be saved. Those elected receive mercy, while those not elected, the reprobates, receive justice without condition.”

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Hence God showing partiality offering salvation to some that don’t deserve it but not to all who equally do not deserve it.

HosannaHM said:

Okay let me be clear: I wasn't talking about unconditional election- you brought it up, and ignored the point of my post. Again, just like the other thread. My post was about the word "elect"- you made it about something else. Textbook moving the goalpost to something else when you don't have an answer and want to switch gears. Unless you exchange your highlighter for a sharpie, you're not getting around the words elect, called, chosen, and predestined. Sure you can augment passages to fit your theological framework, but God's truth will still stand. The plain reading of the verses will still stand.

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In Luke 13:3, in shortened words, Jesus says, “repent or perish.”
Now, think about that for a moment.
The Non-Elect cannot repent, and the Elect cannot perish.
So either Jesus was not aware of Calvinism and He was in error, or Calvinism is simply not true.
I am going to go with the fact that Calvinism is not true and Jesus was telling the truth in how things really are.

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3).

HosannaHM said:

Okay let me be clear: I wasn't talking about unconditional election- you brought it up, and ignored the point of my post. Again, just like the other thread. My post was about the word "elect"- you made it about something else. Textbook moving the goalpost to something else when you don't have an answer and want to switch gears. Unless you exchange your highlighter for a sharpie, you're not getting around the words elect, called, chosen, and predestined. Sure you can augment passages to fit your theological framework, but God's truth will still stand. The plain reading of the verses will still stand.

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Throughout the Bible we see God get angry at sin. This does not make any sense for God to do this if God simply is the One who can change how people are. God can Elect somebody and change them to such a point where they cannot break His commands if Calvinism was true. So there is no need for God to ever get angry at sin or the wicked. After all, He is the One who determines who is saved or not saved, right? This is why Calvinism is totally illogical.

Points To Ponder said:

Was Adam part of the Elect?

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Depends on whether he believed God's Promise of seed (Christ) who would be victorious over the serpent.