Adventist Investigative Judgment

I am disappointed that so far, no one seems willing to, per my request, explain this doctrine in detail, despite the fact that I have sincerely assured them that while I do not agree with the doctrine, I don’t see anything about it which is contradictory to the apostolic kerygma, unlike the confusion of our Lord with St. Michael and soul sleep. I want to reiterate that if someone active in SDA circles can answer my questions, which are purely from curiosity, I am not going to criticize this doctrine. Tall73 has substantial objections to it, but I for my part do not understand it.

tall73 said:

Many who are not in the Seventh-day Adventist church also do not realize how controversial this doctrine has been within the church throughout its history.

Many prominent ministers and theologians have rejected the doctrine, including Crozier who originally formulated part of it as I related earlier.

Canright, Ballenger, Conradi, Waggoner, Grieve, Fletcher, Prescott, Cottrell, and many others took issue with it. Here is what a prominent Adventist theologian said about the issue:

If my experience as a teacher in the Seminary may be taken as a criterion, I would say that a large number of our ministers have serious doubt as to the correctness of the views we hold on certain phases of the sanctuary. They believe, in a general way, that we are correct, but they are as fully assured that Ballenger's views have never been fully met and that we cannot meet them. Not wishing to make the matter an issue, they simply decide that the question is not vital - and thus the whole subject of the sanctuary is relegated, in their minds at least, to the background. This is not a wholesome situation. If the subject is as vital as we have thought and taught it to be, it is not of secondary importance. Today, in the minds of a considerable part of the ministry, as far as my experience in the Seminary is concerned, it has little vital bearing, either in their lives or theology. I dread to see the day when our enemies will make capital of our weakness. I dread still more to see the day when our ministry will begin to raise questions. M. L. Andreason letter, 1942.

He refers to Ballenger. Albion Ballenger was an Adventist minister. He began to take issue with aspects of the sanctuary doctrine. He wrote to Ellen white with the hopes that she would show him in the Scriptures where his view was wrong. Here are a couple of quotes from that letter.

What I am pleading for in this letter, is, that if there be a 'thus saith the Lord' to support your statement, that, out of compassion for my soul you furnish it.

And a bit later:

And now Sister White, what can I do? If I accept the testimony of the Scriptures, if I follow my conscientious convictions, I find myself under your condemnation; and you call me a wolf in sheep's clothing, and warn my brethren and the members of my family against me. But when I turn in my sorrow to the Word of the Lord, that Word reads the same, and I fear to reject God's interpretation and accept yours. Oh that I might accept both. But if I must accept but one, hadn't I better accept the Lord's? If I reject his word and accept yours, can you save me in the judgment?

Ellen White did not furnish the "thus saith the Lord" that Ballenger was asking for. However, she did tell people not to listen to Ballenger's views.

We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God. {1SM 161.2}

She indicates that the experience of the Adventists for the past 50 years shows that their interpretation is correct, and therefore even scriptural arguments to the contrary are not to be entertained. She is noting not to entertain these ideas when people in the Advent movement express them. You may recall from the discussion on the other thread regarding this.


While she did not correct Ballenger's views, she did say this:

I testify in the name of the Lord that Elder Ballenger is led by satanic agencies and spiritualistic, invisible leaders. Those who have the guidance of the Holy Spirit will turn away from these seducing spirits.—Manuscript 59, 1905. (“The Sabbath Truth in the Sentinel, and Elder Ballenger's Views,” May 20, 1905.)


Questions continued to be raised. Here is a quote from Cottrell, an Adventist scholar who worked on the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, among other projects. This is from Spectrum Magazine, April, 1980. He was particularly asking about the idea that the Day of Atonement cleansing is referred to in Daniel 8:14, which is key to the Adventist sanctuary doctrine.

While editing Bible Readings, and in counsel with Elder Nichol as chief editor of the revision, I wrote to 27 leading Adventist Bible scholars for their response to a series of six carefully formulated questions designed to bring the best contemporary Adventist biblical scholarship to bear on the question. All 27 responded, many at considerable length. A careful analysis and synthesis of their replies provided no additional help with respect to the problems arising from our interpretation of Daniel 8:14, and made evident that we had no satisfactory answer to the criticisms being directed against our interpretation of this key Adventist passage. Thirteen replied that they knew of no other valid basis for making such an application; seven based it on analogy; five, on the authority of Ellen White; two, on what they referred to as a "fortunate accident" in translation. Not one of the 27 believed that there was a linguistic or contextual basis for applying Daniel 8:14 to the heavenly sanctuary, an antitypical day of atonement, or 1844.

The GC then set up the secret 5 year Problems in Daniel Committee which was split in their views and never released minutes or a report. This was disclosed at the Glacier View session (more on that below) by Elder Wilson (General Conference President), and then published in the Ministry Magazine special, October, 1980.

The most prominent questioning of the doctrine was by Dr. Desmond Ford, who was head of the theology department at Avondale College, and a lecturer at Pacific Union College, who served for a number of years on the Adventist Biblical Research Committee, which is the denomination's theological committee. He noted the various ministers in the past who questioned aspects of the doctrine, and raised questions which resulted in the denomination holding a gathering at Glacier View Ranch to look into the issue.

The result was that the church issued in Ministry Magazine a special edition that included the Glacier View documents. Note this quote from the primary document that Glacier View produced, Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary:


According to many older versions of the Bible, at the end of the 2300 days the
sanctuary is to be "cleansed.'" The Hebrew word here is nisdaq, which has a
broad range of possible meanings. Its basic idea is "make right," "justify,"
"vindicate," or "restore"; but "purify" and "cleanse" may be included within
its conceptual range. In Daniel 8:14 it is evident that the word denotes the reversal of the evil caused by the power symbolized by the "little horn," and hence probably should be translated "restore." While there is, therefore, not a strong verbal link between this verse and the Day of Atonement ritual of Leviticus 16, the passages are, nevertheless, related by their parallel ideas of rectifying the sanctuary from the effects of sin. (emphasis supplied)

They are noting that the Day of Atonement does not appear to be in view here. They are looking at the world "cleanse" but I think the issue is less even that word, which can have a range of meanings including cleansed, as we see in the LXX. The larger issue is that the whole context is not in line with the cleansing in the Day of Atonement service. Rather, the context as they note is the reversal of the evil caused by the little horn.

This was essentially an agreement with Ford. They try to limit the damage by saying that the concepts are related because of ridding the sanctuary from the effects of sin. That is a difficult argument to make. Cleansing from outside defilement by an external power is not the same as cleansing the sins of all the people in the Day of Atonement.

After Glacier View Dr. Ford had his ministerial credentials removed. This records the view of one of the people in the meeting with Dr. Ford and General Conference President Wilson:

Events since Glacier View

The discussion turned to the matter of "new light" and the counsel of the Lord that such light will not contradict or negate light already given. The idea was set forth that one must submit "new light" to brethren of experience and then yield to their judgment, for there is safety in a multitude of counselors. Pastor Wilson commented that Dr. Ford did not appear really to accept this philosophy, that he required evidence before changing an opinion, and has set up his own criteria of what is acceptable evidence--criteria that exclude the writings of Ellen G. White as being doctrinally authoritative.

And a bit later:

The discussion turned to the matter of Ellen G. White and her role in doctrinal and theological matters. Her authority, in relation to Scripture, and the question of whether she could be considered a reliable, inspired commentary of Scripture was examined. In this area Dr. Ford set forth his viewpoint, and indicated that he cannot agree with what the church holds in this matter. Both Pastors Wilson and Bock pleaded with him to look again at the issues, but he indicated that to change his views without evidence would be to deny his conscience.

Ford wanted Bible evidence before changing his views, and could not accept Ellen White's statements as having doctrinal authority.

The issue of the Sanctuary is tied to Ellen White because she endorsed it again and again.

After Glacier View the Denomination noted a need to further study the issue. And they had scholars draw up material released by the Daniel and Revelation Committee. And research has continued since then. But it has not removed the controversy.

Ford had been an influential figure in Adventism, especially in Australia where he taught ministers for many years. In the aftermath of his removal a large number of ministers in Australia and New Zealand resigned over the next decade. Not all left due to the issues raised by Ford, or his treatment, but quite a few of them did.

This study looks in depth at the departure of ministers in Australia and New Zealand over the ten year period after the Ford crisis.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...lis&f=false

In the course of my research I compiled a list of 182 ministers who left the Adventist ministry between 1980 and 1988. This figure is equivalent to an astonishing 40 percent of the total ministerial work force in Australia and New Zealand--a statistic without presidence in the Adventist Church at any other time or in any other place.

Pastors have also resigned in other parts of the world, and still do. I have known a number of pastors who, like me, left the Adventist church due to their inability to reconcile this doctrine with the Bible. Because Adventists are required to adhere to the 28 fundamental beliefs they did not feel they could continue to belong to the church. However, some ministers do continue to pastor while admitting privately that they do not agree with the Sanctuary teaching, and I knew some of these as well.

In some more liberal congregations Ellen White and the sanctuary teaching are often downplayed.

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When it talks about “many older versions of the Bible,” what versions is it referring to? The Codex Sinaiticus? The Peshitta? The Septuagint? The Masoretic text? The Vulgate or the Vetus Latina?

The Liturgist said:

I want to reiterate that if someone active in SDA circles can answer my questions, which are purely from curiosity, I am not going to criticize this doctrine. Tall73 has substantial objections to it, but I for my part do not understand it.

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I am happy to address your questions - as to this Judgment topic (one of my most favorite topics) - it is in a number of different places in the Bible - and is sort of the "Calculus" version of Bible doctrine. It is solid but is in a number of Bible chapters where all contribute to the complete concept. (even though the bulk of it appears from reading just two chapters -- Dan 7 and Romans 2)

Judgment in Rev 14 is seen in Rev 14:6-7 which is the first message of 3 angel's messages

Rev 14:6-7
"6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven with an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and sea and springs of waters.”

Rev 14 states that these are the final warning messages given to the world before the Rev 14:14-20 second coming and destruction of the wicked. Giving the 3 Angels messages is the mission of the Adventist Church.

Basically this thread unpacks this one key "everlasting Gospel"(Rev 14:6) statement in the Bible found in 2 Cor 5 and Rev 14:6-7 - pertaining to Judgment.

2 Cor 5:"10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. "

(See next post)

I am addressing "What is the Judgment" and "when did it start"

tall73 said:

While Seventh-day Adventists hold a number of distinctive doctrines only one of the fundamental beliefs of Seventh-day Advenstists is unique to that denomination. This is the the teaching of the investigative judgment beginning in 1844. Here is the fundamental belief statement:

https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf

Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle that the Lord set up and not humans. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. At His ascension, He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and, began His intercessory ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the holy place of the earthly sanctuary. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Lev. 16; Num. 14:34; Ezek. 4:6; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Heb. 1:3; 2:16, 17; 4:14-16; 8:1-5; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; Rev. 8:3-5; 11:19; 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:11, 12.)

This is an invitation to examine this doctrine, and see why Adventists believe it.

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Dan 7 Judgment - vs 9-10, 22. Is for the benefit of the "myriads and myriads" the courtroom as observers in vs 10. Once the judgment completes - there is the 2nd coming Dan 7:26-27.

Post-Dark Ages, Pre-Second Coming, Judgment “out of books” (Investigative) – done in heaven

Your quote shows that one of the Bible texts where Adventists get details for this doctrine is from Dan 7

• 4 beasts (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome) -- Dan 7:1-8
  
• And after Rome is divided into ten , and after the 11th horn arises - a judgment scene in heaven takes place. vs 9
  
• The ancient of Days (God the Father) has a throne and that throne can move (has wheels) from one place to another. vs 9
  
• The Ancient of days is seated, and the court is then seated. vs 9-10
  
• a judgment scene "setup in heaven" (vs 9-10)
  
• where the "Son of Man" (God the Son) comes to the "Ancient of Days" (God the Father" (Vs 13)
  
• in a court room of myriads and myriads of beings (vs 9-10)
  
• and the "books are opened" vs 10 (Investigative)
  
• and "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" vs 22
  
• - Judgment of individuals happens and passes in favor of one side and against the other side
• And according to the chapter this happens after the fourth beast (pagan roman empire) arises (7-10)
  
• And it happens after 11th horn - conquers 3 of the 10 horns (7-9)
  
• and the judgment happens after the 1260 years of dark ages (times and time and 1/2 time) (vs 25-26).
• And the dark ages does not start until after the division of 10 kings - Roman empire splits into 10 parts
• Israel is in Babylon, Persian, Greece and Roman empires - yet persecution of the saints takes place then and now - to this very day. And persecution continues all through the judgment - until it is completed.
• So then in Rev 13:1-10 that composite of all 4 empires continues to persecute the saints until the second coming - as Dan 7 points out.

Keys here are found in Dan 9

1. All Bible timelines are contiguous -- in the case of each one
2. All apocalytpic timelines use day-for-year.

====================

from one of your later posts it appears you already agree with some of these points -

tall73 said:

I agree with these elements of the Adventist view:
...
- Agreed the Daniel judgment scene happens prior to the second coming, resulting in judgment on the little horn.

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============= summarizing differences -
1. Differences and similarities regarding Heb 9 #103 #114 #107
2. Transfer of sin from sinner to sanctuary in Leviticus - #88 #48
3. Start point for the vision in the Dan 8 and Dan 9 vision - #84
4. Sin offerings "offered up in smoke" on the altar - #139 #90
5. Dan 7 shows investigative judgment (out of books) of individuals #147
6. Saints are not physically in heaven for this pre-advent judgment #4
7. The Day of Atonement is accepted even by Jews as "day of judgment" #54
8. "Cleansing" refers to cleansing from sin #88
9. Dan 8 cleansing of the sanctuary that restores/justifies/identifies the position of the saints (Judgment passed in favor of the saints) - vs- the second coming that ends the work of the Little Horn of Dan 7 and 8 - #34
10. First Christ offered the sin offering on the cross “bearing the sins of many” – then he sat down to do the work of High Priest in heaven. #86

Note: The entire sanctuary service is about "answering questions" (in the presence of the "myriads and myriads" of observers in Dan 7) as to who is forgiven and who is not and "exactly why" in each case. When all has been answered - the second coming happens.

2 Cor 5:10 "10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad."

So that is ALL, and it is future to Rom 2:16 and 2 Cor 5:10, it is "the judgment seat of Christ" and it looks not just at GOOD deeds but also the reward for BAD deeds.

Rom 6:23 "the wages of sin is death"

As Christ said in Matt 7 "By their fruits you shall know them" -- Good trees produce good fruit. The born-again saints will be known by their fruit.

Rom 2:4-16 spells this out in detail

Gospel Judgment -- Gospel and the Judgment

BobRyan said:

"Everlasting Gospel" and the judgment future to John's day.

Rev 14:
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Rom 2:13-16
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus

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• 4. Rev 14:6-7 the judgment takes place while Gospel evangelism is fully going on - for the people on Earth who are responding to the Gospel

• 5. Dan 7 - the judgment takes place while the saints are being persecuted.

That means there is no "stand in person" idea to be inserted in 2 Cor 5:10 - rather the case of that person is being brought up

• while saints are being persecuted on Earth Dan 7:25-26
  
• and while the Gospel is being preached on Earth Rev 14:6-7
• and before the 2nd coming (not at the second coming) - Dan 7:24-27.

Saints seated in heaven with Christ all this time -- Eph 2: 5 "even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus", ... not yet "in person".. for now the saints are persecuted.

================ day-for-a-year historicist model

As Dan 9 demonstrates all apocalyptic timelines use day-for-year and are contiguous.

the 490 days of Dan 9 are 490 years.
The 2300 days of Dan 8 are 2300 years
The 1260 days of Dan 7 for the dark ages... are 1260 years.
The 1260 days of Rev 11,12,13 of dark ages ... are 1260 years

"the historicist paradigm, together with its pre- or postmillennialism, the day-year principle, and the view of the papal antichrist, was dominant in English Protestant scholarship during much of the period from the Reformation to the middle of the 19th century"

Historicism (Christianity) - Wikipedia

Rom 2:
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

...
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

The "Law written on the heart" is the Jer 31:31-34 New Covenant (as Paul reminds us in Heb 8:6-12.) And as he says in Rom 2 of that new heart "circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit"

And also from the list of texts in your quote

Rev 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven with an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and sea and springs of waters.”

There we see

• This is the last warning message given to the world as can be seen by what the text says happens after that message is given Rev 14:13-20
• That last message is the messages of the 3 angels in Rev 14.
  
• one of several direct quotes of the Sabbath commandment in the New Testament
• Judgment "has come" is par of the Gospel message going out to all mankind -- so that means evangelism is going on while judgment is going on in heaven.
  
• While judgment is going on in heaven

And the third Angel's message includes this -
12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

The list of texts in our quote includes Rev 11:18 which includes this
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,

Judgment in heaven begins with the cases of the dead and happens while evangelism is going on - on Earth Rev 14:6-7
==================================

Phil 2
9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

No doubt this happens in Rev 20 at the Great White Throne judgment -- but at that time only the cases of the wicked are brought in review - the cases of the saints where "judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 already happened before the second coming - as you already agreed.

In those two phases of Judgment - one of them has this
1. Judgment passed in favor of the saints Dan 7:22
2. Persecution of the saints while judgment is going on Dan 7:24-26
3. Gospel evangelism while judgment is going on - Rev 14:6-7
4. After it concludes - there is the second coming Dan 7:24-26

The other one has this
1. only the wicked raised in the 2nd resurrection are judged
2. Every knee bows in the presence of Christ the judge of all.

The date for the start of that judgment comes from Daniel 8 and 9 and following basic rules of interpretation.


1. All Bible timelines are contiguous -- in the case of each one
2. All apocalytpic timelines use day-for-a-solar-year.

In Daniel 9 you have 70 weeks (so that is 7days x 70weeks = 490 days = 490 years using day-for-year)

Dan 9 has as start date of 457 B.C.

Dan 9 (NASB) -- this is Gabriel speaking according to the text.

23 At the beginning of your pleas the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, because you are highly esteemed; so pay attention to the message and gain understanding of the vision.

(speaks of "the vision" already given in Dan 8 where Daniel said he was very confused about it - at the end of that vision)

Seventy Weeks and the Messiah
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;"

(the start point is given - as the time during the Persian empire when a decree is sent out to rebuild Jerusalem.. Ezra 6 says it is a 3-part decree composed of the decree of 3 kings. Ezra 7 says it is given to Jerusalem in 457 B.C.)

Dan 9:25 continued -- "it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city

Dan 8 is the vision that gains "explanation" as Dan 9 says - by the details given in Dan 9.

Dan 8 starts off with what modern viewers would call "an animated sequence" of a Ram with two horns - having had success in all directions

At the start of Dan 8 - the Ram (Persia) is already dominant (as we would expect with a 457 B.C. start date specified in Dan 9 as explaining the Dan 8 vision).

Then there arises Greece - the "he goat" of Dan 8 with one large horn. But at some point for Greece , the large horn was broken; and in its place four prominent horns " came up. So then Greece splits into four divisions/segments/sections after Alexander the Great dies.

8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down.

The little horn that comes up some time after the 4 horns appear is "exceedingly great" toward South, East and toward Jerusalem, by comparison to the 2 horns of the Ram and the 4 horns of the goat. A much greater force of history than any before it.

Dan 8 is very clear that the 2300 year timeline extends down to the time of the end.

15 Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man. 16 And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.” 17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”

Dan 8:13 asks "how long is the vision"...

Dan 8:13 NASB "How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply,"
Dan 8:13 NKJV "How long will the vision be"

It asks what period of time is covered by the vision just given - that starts with Persia dominant in all directions.

The Dan 8:1-3 start point is before the little horn. The vision does not start with the little horn.

It is like asking how long a period of time is covered by the WWII movie that includes the dropping of the A-bomb. You need the starting event and the length to know what point in time marks its end

It is asking for the time span covered by the Dan 8:2-12 animated sequence of ram and goat and the little horn.

The answer is given in Dan 8:14 - 2300 days. And since all apocalyptic timelines use the same day-for-year rule as already agreed upon in Dan 9.. that is 2300 years.

Dan 8 gives duration of the vision but no start date.

Dan 9 gives detail to help explain Dan 8 -- and that includes the start date of 457 B.C. which means the 2300 year timeline in Dan 8 ends in 1844.

In Dan 7 you have

• "A problem" little horn ,
• persecution of saints for 1260 years during what some call "the dark ages",
• then judgment event is setup
  
• and then when that completes the little horn problem is solved (vs 25-26)
  
• Dan 7 says you have the second coming after that point.

In Dan 8 you have

• a "little horn problem" that grows exceedingly great
• that causes trouble for the saints
• then the sanctuary is cleansed
  
• and when that completes - the problem is solved.

The judgment in Daniel 7 corresponds to the cleansing of the sanctuary solution in Dan 8.

Dan 7 says that when the judgment completes the 2nd coming happens.


25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.


26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

Rev 22 points to that time saying that when judgment completes no one will "switch sides" between God's kingdom and Satan's kingdom anymore

10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”


Rev 15:8 tells us why they no longer change sides - it is because the sin pardoning work of 1 John 2:1 has ended. The one Mediator 1 Tim 2:5 is no longer in the heavenly sanctuary at that point "so that" the 7 last plagues of Rev 16 could be poured out on mankind.

Christ is our high priest in God's sanctuary in heaven as of His resurrection Heb 8:1-5 and this is "the main point" according to Paul. The earthly tent was made as a type of the real Sanctuary in heaven according to Heb 8.

It was for cleansing the sanctuary and the people - for making atonement ... that involved the transfer of sins away from the sinner via the blood of the sin offering.

BobRyan said:

1. We all agree - Adventists did not write the book of Leviticus one cannot blame its contents on Adventists.
2. God is the one stating the function of the Sanctuary in "transferring" guilt from the sinner as already pointed out in Lev 10:16-18

16 But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying, 17 “Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to take away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you certainly should have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded!

I don't think Lev 10 can be "blamed" on Adventists. That is not logical.



This sanctuary was a visual aid to explain how the Gospel works. It is how God explains infinite concepts to finite beings.

Lev 16 - "Day of Atonement"

16 He shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their unlawful acts regarding all their sins; and he shall do so for the tent of meeting which remains with them in the midst of their impurities. 17 When he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, so that he may make atonement for himself and for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel. 18 Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it; he shall take some of the blood from the bull and some of the blood from the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar on all sides. 19 With his finger he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it seven times and cleanse it, and consecrate it from the impurities of the sons of Israel.

20 “When he finishes atoning for the Holy Place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat. ...

25 Then he shall offer up in smoke the fat of the sin offering on the altar. 26 The one who released the goat as the scapegoat shall wash his clothes and bathe his body with water; then afterward he shall come into the camp. ...

An Annual Atonement
29 “This shall be a permanent statute for you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall humble yourselves and not do any work, whether the native, or the stranger who resides among you; 30 for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord. ...33 and make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar. He shall also make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly.

Your argument that cleansing/atonement never applies to the sanctuary does not hold up to a close review of the Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" doctrine in scripture.

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As we see in that quote - cleansing and atonement due to the pollution of sin - is for both the sanctuary AND the people. Lev 16: 18-20, 30-33

As our High Priest "He makes intercession for us" Heb 7:25 in that sanctuary as the "one mediator between God and man" 1 Tim 2:5. This is what John points to in 1 John 2:1 "we have an advocate with the Father" in the case that someone sins "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

Heb 9 reminds us that the Sanctuary has two distinct contexts - a holy place and a most holy place location. (Helps to have NASB when reading Heb 9). The Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" service is that second phase of the Sanctuary model that God gives. Christ is both the "High Priest" in Lev 16 and also the "sin offering" the Lamb of God.

The Father and the Son are in that Sanctuary but the judgment work does not start until the 2300 year timeline is ended. It begins the last set of warning messages to Earth.

The start of that judgment work at the end of the 2300 year timeline is the announcement being given in Rev 14:6-7 by the first of the 3 Angels.

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The sin offering is "offered up" in smoke at the altar (on the cross)

from: #114

BobRyan said:

Heb 7
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens;
27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself

Heb 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. (on the cross)

Heb 10:10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time. (on the cross.)

Heb 9
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made by hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often (on the cross)
since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, (one the cross)
will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him

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More details on the Bible teaching that the High Priest would "offer up in smoke" the sin offering on the altar.
Friday at 7:56 PM #139

The Liturgist said:

I am disappointed that so far, no one seems willing to, per my request, explain this doctrine in detail, despite the fact that I have sincerely assured them that while I do not agree with the doctrine, I don’t see anything about it which is contradictory to the apostolic kerygma,

Click to expand...

I am sorry I have been posting on an evolution vs creation thread over in "News and Current Events" and missed your post. In fact I missed both threads that have been started here this week on this topic -- I just saw it this morning.

I hope this first page helps ... please let me know if questions remain.

tall73 said:

I let him know of your creation thread. Thank you for undertaking an explanation. People can now ask clarifying questions.

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Will do - it is here #1

And we are looking for more creationists to read and to comment because this is in an area open to all - in "News and Current Events" unlike many other Evolution-vs-Creation threads - so it has just the basic set of conditions and limits for it that you can find on any thread -- so just the regular rules for this one.

The Liturgist said:

unlike the confusion of our Lord with St. Michael and soul sleep.

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If you want to start threads on each one of those - I am happy to participate - as for God the Son having the name Michael - the Adventists get to that conclusion pretty much the same way Matthew Henry does. So for example in Gen 18 - Abraham sees "three men" walking toward him -- turns out one of them is YHWH (which we also claim is Jesus) and the other two are angels. But they appear in the form of 3 men as they interact with Abraham. That does not mean that angels are really just men or that YHWH (which is the very highest form of the name of God) was just a human or even incarnated as a human at that point in time.

@BobRyan - in the SDA eschatology, does our Lord return or the world end in 2300, or is it merely the start of some heavenly process?

The Liturgist said:

@BobRyan - in the SDA eschatology, does our Lord return or the world end in 2300, or is it merely the start of some heavenly process?

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it is just the start of the judgment scene/event in heaven as described in Dan 7:9-10.

However that is not how the Baptist evangelist/preacher William Miller viewed it. He thought it was the second coming as did all Millerites of all denominations - because they thought the Earth was the sanctuary being "cleansed" in Dan 8 at the end of the 2300 year period of time.

This is why they thought the world would end or at the very least the second coming would happen in 1844.

457B.C. + 2300 years = 1844