Church membership: a lifelong commitment

Daniel Marsh · Apr 28, 2021

Aussie Pete said:
I've never understood "membership". It's ridiculous. If you are born again, you are a member. (Ephesians 3:6). Who would ask a child to sign a pledge to their household? There is one church in each locality. Every other distinction is man-made and utterly unscriptural.

The "one church in each town" is the Catholic Church.

Persecution by the State (A.D. 60-313)

During persecution meeting as a mega church would make no sense. Odds are Christians meet in many places.

Daniel Marsh · Apr 28, 2021

Andrew1988 said:
Hello there. I’ve recently been searching for a Church in my area and I have a couple of really nice churches that I’ve found. These Churches are part of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod or ELS. My question is about their Closed Communion practice. They say that only members of that Church may partake in communion but nobody else. What exactly is the difference between church members and regular church attendees? Is Closed Communion biblical?

Question About Closed Communion - Plain Bible Teaching
Closed communion - Wikipedia
Closed Communion? Admission to the Lord's Supper in Biblical Lutheran Perspective
Faith Lutheran Church: Corning, NY > Why Close Communion? tries to make a case for it. I do not agree with them.

Romans 16:17
Warning against divisions
Brothers and sisters, I urge you to watch out for people who create divisions and problems against the teaching that you learned. Keep away from them.

Jude 1:19
These people create divisions. Since they don’t have the Spirit, they are worldly.

Daniel Marsh · Apr 28, 2021

read to here

bbbbbbb · Apr 29, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
Several years ago, the founder of IHOP, Mike Bickle, created a list of seven ways to recognize the difference between a religious community and a cult. Written down, the signs seem clear:

1. Opposing critical thinking

2. Isolating members and penalizing them for leaving

3. Emphasizing special doctrines outside scripture

4. Seeking inappropriate loyalty to their leaders

5. Dishonoring the family unit

6. Crossing Biblical boundaries of behavior (versus sexual purity and personal ownership)

7. Separation from other Churches

The Seven Signs That You're in a Cult

Opposing critical thinking

Isolating members and penalizing them for leaving

Dishonoring the family unit

Crossing Biblical boundaries of behavior (versus sexual purity and personal ownership)*

*This also applies to other scriptures or holy texts

Emphasizing special doctrines outside “scripture”

Separation from the Church

Seeking inappropriate loyalty to their leaders

How Do I Know If I’m In A Cult? Seven Behaviors And Signs Of Cults

10 Signs You’re Probably In A Cult

The 3 main personality traits of cult leaders, according to a cult-recovery therapist

https://twentytwowords.com/signs-youre-in-a-cult/

Curiously, all of those signs apply to a really large denomination with its corporate headquarters in Italy.

The Liturgist · Apr 29, 2021

Strong in Him said:
No.
Sounds impractical anyway. People move away, circumstances change.
And if the leadership are trying to say that those things mustn't change/happen and that nothing must prevent your membership of that church - run like mad.

What could they do if someone left, anyway; sue them?

If they are affiliated with 9Marks, which is an inter-denominational Calvinist psuedo-denomination, effectively render you excommunicate. They have somewhat of a fixation on “church discipline.”

I would never join a church that made me sign a contract. Receive a sacrament, surely, but not sign a contract. Our Lord never required that of anyone.

tampasteve · Apr 29, 2021

Jesusthekingofking said:
Is it right to setup a membership of a local church where its members are required to commit to it for life? There's also a rule that duo membership is not possible. Meaning to says you are expected to care, gather, serve in this one local church after you become a member.

Where does it in the NT there's such a pattern? to me a church is merely a group of believers coming together living the Christian live. Paul didn't setup the church in Corinth and command them not to go to Church in Rome isn't it?

People tend to grow and change, both in secular and spiritual life. Asking someone to make a lifelong commitment could be problematic. They may be 100% all in when they sign up, but a couple of years down the road they may have a shift in their beliefs and how they view the world. Life events tend to throw people curve balls, that often change how they view the world in secular and spiritual matters.

Personally, I would not be confident enough in any belief system to keep me trapped there out of a binding statement. I was 100% in the Roman Catholic Church when I went through RCIA....then life events changed my views and spirituality.

Asking people to "care, gather, and serve" is great, that is the essence of a community. Asking them to make a life long commitment is another level. Monastic communities do this, but this is not a monastic community you are speaking of, it's a lay community.

If you are talking about founding a monastic community, that is an interesting idea - and there are certainly plenty of histories and information on how that has been done over the length of humanity.

Strong in Him · Apr 29, 2021

The Liturgist said:
If they are affiliated with 9Marks, which is an inter-denominational Calvinist psuedo-denomination, effectively render you excommunicate.

Which I'm guessing is tantamount to saying "you're going to hell."

The Liturgist said:
I would never join a church that made me sign a contract.

Me neither.

The Liturgist said:
Receive a sacrament, surely, but not sign a contract. Our Lord never required that of anyone.

No; I wonder how they answer that fact and justify their actions.
"Love as I loved you" - he gave his followers the freedom to leave, if they wished.

The Liturgist · Apr 29, 2021

Strong in Him said:
Which I'm guessing is tantamount to saying "you're going to hell."

As much as I dislike 9Marks, its not as though they re-enact Richard Burton’s depiction of Thomas Becket anathematizing Lord Gilbert, in which he pretty much does do that.

No; I wonder how they answer that fact and justify their actions.
"Love as I loved you" - he gave his followers the freedom to leave, if they wished.

Indeed.

Davy · Apr 29, 2021

The True Church is not a building, nor any geographic place. It is Christ's Body wherever two or more are gather in His Name. In the Biblical sense, even right here on this forum when two or more are gathered in Christ's Name, we are in Church.

A believer in Christ Jesus should be welcome in any (true) Christian Church, regardless of the denomination. A 'beth-aven' is a different matter, for a beth-aven means a house of vanity, not a true Church. There are some so-called churches that are in reality a beth-aven (house of vanity). The true Church is a Beth-El, i.e., House of God, and the way you know is that God's Word is taught there and followed.

Albion · Apr 29, 2021

Davy said:
The True Church is not a building, nor any geographic place. It is Christ's Body wherever two or more are gather in His Name. In the Biblical sense, even right here on this forum when two or more are gathered in Christ's Name, we are in Church.

Well, no. The verse says that where two or three are gathered Christ will be there with them.

It doesn't say that these two people constitute the church founded by Christ and which the New Testament describes in detail with its leaders, functions, sacraments, benefits received by the members, and so on.

Davy · Apr 29, 2021

Albion said:
Well, no. The verse says that where two or three are gathered Christ will be there with them.

It doesn't say that these two people constitute the church founded by Christ and which the New Testament describes in detail with its leaders, functions, sacraments, benefits received by the members, and so on.

What don't you understand that two or more can mean "two or three"? Lord Jesus isn't limiting a gathering of His Church to just 2 or 3 members, and it's simple to know that at least 2 must be gathered to fellowship. Thus your complaint is kind of anal retentive.

Matt 18:20
20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them.
KJV

Albion · Apr 29, 2021

Davy said:
What don't you understand that two or more can mean "two or three"?

I explained this verse in my previous post. If you disagree with any of that, point out what it is that you don't understand so that I can help. You seem to have seized on the reference to "two" as though saying that must mean that "three" has been excluded.

However, the meaning is the same if we say "two" or "three" or "two or three." That does not constitute a church, at least not according to the New Testament.

Davy · Apr 29, 2021

Albion said:
I explained this verse in my previous post. If you disagree with any of that, point out what it is that you don't understand so that I can help. You seem to have seized on the reference to "two" as though saying that must mean that "three" has been excluded. However, the meaning is the same if we say "two" or "three" or "two or three." That does not constitute a church, at least not according to the New Testament.

All that is anal retentiveness. Silly argument, as you can't even read the words "or more" that I stated.'

What is your real... reason for acting out against me? Fess up instead of trying to hide behind your statements.

Albion · Apr 29, 2021

Davy said:
All that is anal retentiveness. Silly argument, as you can't even read the words "or more" that I stated.'

Okay. Here's my last attempt. A church--as described by the Bible--is not just a few followers of Christ who have come together for some reason. Nor does the verse in question say that it is.

There is much more that is required for an assembly to be a church, and we also know that from the testimony given in the Bible.

sawdust · Apr 29, 2021

Albion said:
Okay. Here's my last attempt. A church--as described by the Bible--is not just a few followers of Christ who have come together for some reason. Nor does the verse in question say that it is.

There is much more that is required for an assembly to be a church, and we also know that from the testimony given in the Bible.

What does constitute a Church then according to the NT? I would like to see the verses you are thinking of please.

Albion · Apr 29, 2021

sawdust said:
What does constitute a Church then according to the NT? I would like to see the verses you are thinking of please.

This is just off the top of my head, but Christ ordained two sacraments--Baptism and the Lord's Supper. What they were for was also explained by him. The New Testament indicates who the leaders of the assembly are to be and what qualifications are to be met for deacons and presbyters or bishops. It tells us that the congregation is the place to reconcile members to each other and settle disputes. Christ explicitly told his Apostles, on whom he founded his church, to preach the Good News, make converts, and then baptize them. And there is so much more that the point should be beyond doubting.

You can easily run down all of this and more with a search engine, but here's one website that does a nice job of addressing the issue...complete with Bible verses.

11 Reasons Why You Need to Belong to a Church - The Gospel Coalition | Australia

Davy · Apr 30, 2021

Albion said:
Okay. Here's my last attempt. A church--as described by the Bible--is not just a few followers of Christ who have come together for some reason. Nor does the verse in question say that it is.

There is much more that is required for an assembly to be a church, and we also know that from the testimony given in the Bible.

By much more, you really mean a SYSTEM OF MAN that you follow. That's not what constitutes Christ's Church. Jesus Christ is the Head over His Church, not man's organizational systems.

Jonaitis · May 4, 2021

Jesusthekingofking said:
Is it right to setup a membership of a local church where its members are required to commit to it for life? There's also a rule that duo membership is not possible. Meaning to says you are expected to care, gather, serve in this one local church after you become a member.

Where does it in the NT there's such a pattern? to me a church is merely a group of believers coming together living the Christian live. Paul didn't setup the church in Corinth and command them not to go to Church in Rome isn't it?

It is the responsibility for every Christian to be "plugged-in" a single church body, where they will not only contribute to the ministry in some way, but be held accountable by those overseers/elders and the congregation. It should never turn into a social gathering, where you come solely to a service to leave "feeling good." If you belong to several churches, then you are not properly a member who participates in fullness of that ministry. It is one thing to be looking for a church, it is another to be a "wanderer" who isn't under the discipline of leadership. This can be dangerous for that Christian. In part, this is why the church is considered a "flock" under "shepherds." Find a solid and biblical church, and be fully connected.

GenemZ · May 5, 2021

Davy said:
By much more, you really mean a SYSTEM OF MAN that you follow. That's not what constitutes Christ's Church. Jesus Christ is the Head over His Church, not man's organizational systems.

Wherever Truth is being taught and believers find themselves being encouraged and strengthened you have found the church. Keep in mind. Much of the New Testament epistles were written to be read before others. The ones teaching in those letters were not present.

Romans 10:17 tells us why we need a church...

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is
heard through the word about Christ."

When the Bible was written they had no way of 'hearing' a message being taught unless they sat themselves down in front of a pastor competent to teach. Over the years of attack Satan has destroyed the effectiveness of many pulpits.

Today through recorded media God has provided "emergency air drops" of spiritual food by making us able to hear the Word of God being taught on a needed quality level to be spiritually healthy.. Its to be led to by those discerning the malnourishing spiritual "food" being served in too many churches in our present day. Junk food traditionalism is not living and growing in advancing in knowledge...

Remember!

Faith comes by hearing... Back then that was only possible one way.

grace and peace

Davy · May 6, 2021

genez said:
Wherever Truth is being taught and believers find themselves being encouraged and strengthened you have found the church. Keep in mind. Much of the New Testament epistles were written to be read before others. The ones teaching in those letters were not present.

Romans 10:17 tells us why we need a church...

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is
heard through the word about Christ."

When the Bible was written they had no way of 'hearing' a message being taught unless they sat themselves down in front of a pastor competent to teach. Over the years of attack Satan has destroyed the effectiveness of many pulpits.

Today through recorded media God has provided "emergency air drops" of spiritual food by making us able to hear the Word of God being taught on a needed quality level to be spiritually healthy.. Its to be led to by those discerning the malnourishing spiritual "food" being served in too many churches in our present day. Junk food traditionalism is not living and growing in advancing in knowledge...

Remember!

Faith comes by hearing... Back then that was only possible one way.

grace and peace

I realize the need for believers coming together, I'd never deny that. But for an organization in some far away city pushing Church Quarterly pamphlets used to keep the preacher on 'their' pet denomination doctrines, and telling the preacher and Sunday school teachers what to cover in God's Word, that's a system our Lord Jesus did not create, nor did any of His Apostles. That's a system created by the crept in unawares in order to 'control' what the congregation is fed. This is why today very few Churches are covering all of God's Word, and instead are teaching one verse here, and a verse there, only doing themes on a single verse out of The Bible, often out of the Bible context, and adding men's socialist theories.

So if we're going to refer to Romans 10:17 by Apostle Paul, then let's be truthful about what is being done in many Churches today.

Rom 10:13-17
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!'

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, 'Lord, who hath believed our report?'

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
KJV

Does that say Faith comes by hearing the word of man? No, so a 'true' Church is one that sticks to preaching The Word of God by those who are 'sent'. Anything other than that is a 'beth-aven', meaning a house of vanity.

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