Can you be saved after death?

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,225
4,212
Wyoming
✟123,551.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
As we know Jesus preached to spirits in prison, which means this is not the end in meaning closed heaven for those spirits. Catholics are talking for purgatory, while orthodox are talking for temporary hell. But why do the souls need to be tormented, isn't better they to serve God in afterlife until they become worthy?

It is stated by many commentators of the passage that you are referring to (1 Peter 3:19) isn't about Jesus preaching to people currently in Hades, but that he had formerly preached repentance through Noah to those now in prison, but they were disobedient.

God isn't a small sovereign, and eternal damnation fits the crime committed against him. Also, God is all-wise and who are you to say what is better? Let's humbly accept what our all-wise God has purposed for his own glory, even if we don't fully understand it.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Goodhuman

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2020
567
213
dfgdfsgdf
✟58,992.00
Country
Cambodia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It is stated by many commentators of the passage that you are referring to (1 Peter 3:19) isn't about Jesus preaching to people currently in Hades, but that he had formerly preached repentance through Noah to those now in prison, but they were disobedient.

God isn't a small sovereign, and eternal damnation fits the crime committed against him. Also, God is all-wise and who are you to say what is better? Let's humbly accept what our all-wise God has purposed for his own glory, even if we don't fully understand it.

If God is all-wise I can tell my word if I am at his side.
 
Upvote 0

GodLovesCats

Well-Known Member
Mar 16, 2019
7,401
1,329
47
Florida
✟117,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Since as you say satan is God's creature, God has the right to do with him as He likes. God is just and satan has more than earned eternal suffering.

Something I always wondered about is why an all-loving God created all-hating Satan. Why did He create both angels and demons? Why did He give Adam the choice between good and evil on two fruit trees? I'm sure God never wanted any of His people to end up in hell.
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,898
7,989
NW England
✟1,052,512.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Something I always wondered about is why an all-loving God created all-hating Satan. Why did He create both angels and demons?

He didn't; he created angels.
Since some of the angels decided to rebel against God, I'm guessing that they must have been given the same choice that humans were later given. If so, that would make their decision 100 x worse - they were created as angels and were serving God in heaven; they chose to join Lucifer in trying to overthrow God and grab his glory and power.

Why did He give Adam the choice between good and evil on two fruit trees?

He didn't; he told Adam not to eat the fruit from one tree - he could eat from any of the others, but not that one. Adam heard God say this, and chose to disobey him.

If God hadn't allowed him to choose, Adam would have obeyed, loved and followed God because he had no other option; he would know no different.
As Satan said at the beginning of the book of Job; of course he worships and praises you. You have given him blessings and an easy life.

It amazes me that God was prepared to give himself an awful lot of pain - rejected and hated by those whom he had made. But how he must love it when people choose to love and follow him - they know there are other alternatives, but they want to love and belong to God. They/we love him through choice, not because we were programmed to do so.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BobRyan
Upvote 0

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,258
5,991
Pacific Northwest
✟208,189.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Something I always wondered about is why an all-loving God created all-hating Satan. Why did He create both angels and demons? Why did He give Adam the choice between good and evil on two fruit trees? I'm sure God never wanted any of His people to end up in hell.
God could have created robots, I do not think anyone would rather be a robot than a human. Robots do not create new things or return love
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,780
2,575
PA
✟274,814.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
As we know Jesus preached to spirits in prison, which means this is not the end in meaning closed heaven for those spirits
If you are talking about after Jesus died, He went to the Limbo of the Dead to preach the good news. The people there were saved under the Old Law but as we know the Old Law was not sufficient.
Catholics are talking for purgatory
The need for purging after death is not only biblical but has always been taught by the Church. People get all sideways because of the word Purgatory because they focus on when the word Purgatory was "coined".
But why do the souls need to be tormented
We cause our own torment as we deal with those earthly attachments. According to scripture, nothing unclean can enter Heaven.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
28,220
13,465
72
✟368,997.00
Faith
Non-Denom
If you are talking about after Jesus died, He went to the Limbo of the Dead to preach the good news. The people there were saved under the Old Law but as we know the Old Law was not sufficient.
The need for purging after death is not only biblical but has always been taught by the Church. People get all sideways because of the word Purgatory because they focus on when the word Purgatory was "coined".
We cause our own torment as we deal with those earthly attachments that need to be dealt with. According to scripture, nothing unclean can enter Heaven.

That is most curious, considering that the current stance of your denomination is that the Limbo of the dead does not exist.
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,780
2,575
PA
✟274,814.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,346
10,603
Georgia
✟911,707.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
As we know Jesus preached to spirits in prison, which means this is not the end in meaning closed heaven for those spirits. Catholics are talking for purgatory, while orthodox are talking for temporary hell. But why do the souls need to be tormented, isn't better they to serve God in afterlife until they become worthy?

1. The text of 1 Peter 3 does not say that the people were dead at the time that the Spirit of Christ preached to them.

2. Heb 9 says "it appointed unto man once to die and THEN comes judgment" not "and then comes more chances to accept the Gospel"
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,346
10,603
Georgia
✟911,707.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I don't think that the fallen angels are christians. No need to preach to them if they aren't christians.
And I don't think that they who are with satan makes them to be in prison. They are higher than saved christians.
Even the orthodox church believes that demons (which they say are the fallen angels) are not judged now and they judge the humans after death in the ariel toll houses.
The dead need our prayers, but why if they cannot become more spiritually?
For sure God is not righteous if he let the righteous to go to hell before Christ died. Who says the other religions aren't true?

1. No one is burning in the lake of fire yet - see the lake of fire teaching in Rev 20
2. The 1 Peter 3 text works better if you quote it -- in context.

1 Peter 1 for context
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.


THAT is the "Spirit of Christ" preaching to the living in the OT at the time when they were alive.

So now - "in context" we have 1 Peter 3
17 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. 18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

It is specifically speaking of the preaching AT the time Noah was building the ark -- people who were alive were hearing the Gospel

2 Peter 2:5 and did not spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

So then Noah was an example of one of those prophets in the OT - where "the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow" - as we was himself "a preacher of righteousness,"

===================

From: 1 Peter 3:19 Commentaries: in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

He went and preached unto the spirits in prison.—There are two main ways of interpreting this mysterious passage. (1) The spirits are understood as being now in prison, in consequence of having rejected His preaching to them while they were still on earth. According to this interpretation—which has the support of such names as Pearson, Hammond, Barrow, and Leighton (though he afterwards modified his opinion). among ourselves, besides divers great theologians of other countries, including St. Thomas Aquinas on the one hand and Beza on the other—it was “in spirit,” i.e., mystically speaking, our Lord Himself who, in and through the person of Noah, preached repentance to the old world. Thus the passage is altogether dissociated from the doctrine of the descent into hell; and the sense (though not the Greek) would be better expressed by writing, He had gone and preached unto the spirits (now) in prison.


In what sort of prison are they in now

2 Peter 2
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Hos 13:14
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes” (Hosea 13:14)

Rev 1:
18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.


Job 3
13 For now I would have lain down and been quiet;
I would have slept then, I would have been at rest,
14 With kings and counselors of the earth,
Who rebuilt ruins for themselves;
….
16 Or like a miscarriage which is hidden, I would not exist,
As infants that never saw light.
17 There the wicked cease from raging,
And there the weary are at rest.
18 The prisoners are at ease together;
They do not hear the voice of the taskmaster.
19 The small and the great are there,
And the slave is free from his mster.

============================

Matthew Henry

1 Peter 3 - Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org


1. For the explication of this we may notice, (1.) The preacher - Christ Jesus, who has interested himself in the affairs of the church and of the world ever since he was first promised to Adam, Genesis 3:15. He went, not by a local motion, but by special operation, as God is frequently said to move, Genesis 11:5; Hosea 5:15; Micah 1:3. He went and preached, by his Spirit striving with them, and inspiring and enabling Enoch and Noah to plead with them, and preach righteousness to them, as 2 Peter 2:5. (2.) The hearers. Because they were dead and disembodied when the apostle speaks of them, therefore he properly calls them spirits now in prison; not that they were in prison when Christ preached to them, ... (3.) The sin of these people: They were disobedient, that is, rebellious, unpersuadable, and unbelieving, as the word signifies; this their sin is aggravated from the patience and long-suffering of God (which once waited upon them for 120 years together), while Noah was preparing the ark, and by that, as well as by his preaching, giving them fair warning of what was coming upon them. (4.) The event of all: Their bodies were drowned, and their spirits cast into hell, which is called a prison (Matthew 5:25; 2 Peter 2:4, 2 Peter 2:5); but Noah and his family, who believed and were obedient, were saved in the ark.



1 Peter 3 Barnes' Notes
Albert Barnes Commentary

(b) He refers them to the patience and an age of great and abounding wickedness, when in the person of his representative and ambassador Noah, he suffered much and long from the opposition of the guilty and perverse people who were finally destroyed, and who are now held in prison, showing us how patient we ought to be when offended by others in our attempts to do them good, 1 Peter 3:19-20.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,346
10,603
Georgia
✟911,707.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Although it is common throughout the entire Orthodox church, Slavs and Russians take it more literally, whereas we Greeks lean more of a metaphorical understanding of it.

In the parable that Christ tells - the prayer of the wicked man in hell is not to God at all - but to Abraham seeking Abraham's sovereign decision to raise someone from the dead and warn his living relatives.

Is this form of prayers to the dead something that is commonly accepted in the Orthodox church?
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,346
10,603
Georgia
✟911,707.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
If anybody fallen, evil or with satan automatically makes him to suffer? Isn't that discrimination?
Satan is God's creature too and have right to live.

Satan created war in heaven - warring directly against God - see Revelation 12. Revelation 12 ends this way -
9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. ... 12 For this reason, rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you with great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

They are not in heaven - they are on earth. The devil is judged and condemned already. The question now is "why is he still living?".. But that too will be sovled according to Ezek 28
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

2BeholdHisGlory

Still on vacation!
Mar 20, 2021
823
414
Outer Space
✟11,791.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Off of what BobRyan posted


2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; (and here by water)

2 Peter 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (and here by fire)

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: (examples shown by water and by fire)

Isnt that "eighth person" pointing to the same thing Abraham ask the LORD

Genesis 18:26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

Gen 18:32 And he (Abraham) said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

Both in the picture of Noah and Lot are under the very least number of ten Abraham asked the LORD about (when it come to sparing the place). Noah is the eighth (and his house) and Lot, His wife (who looked back) and daughters would be four (had the sons in laws taken Lot seriously) that number would have been at 6, so the number is dwindling lower then the first (shown in Noah)

Just as Jude shows how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And added in Jude 1:7 that, Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
 
Upvote 0

2BeholdHisGlory

Still on vacation!
Mar 20, 2021
823
414
Outer Space
✟11,791.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Anyone know why Isaiah 61:1 "the opening of the prison" there means "the opening of eyes"?

Isaiah 61:1... the opening of the prison H6495 to them that are bound; H631

It seems to be used only once, thats just a strange way to open a prison that is related only to one eyes.
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,780
2,575
PA
✟274,814.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Please quote the relevant texts from the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding Limbo. Thank you.
are you referring to what I called Limbo of the Dead where Christ preached the Good News or what you are referring to as Limbo?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums