WE ARE NOT MADE RIGHTEOUS BY DOING RIGHTEOUS DEEDS;

fhansen · May 5, 2021

BUT WHEN WE HAVE BEEN MADE RIGHTEOUS WE DO RIGHTEOUS DEEDS. Martin Luther

Catholicism would agree and maintains that this righteousness, that comes from God, alone, as we enter fellowship with Him through faith, also has an identity- defined mainly as love. And that we're in any case obligated to maintain and express this righteousness, an obligation which should present an easy enough burden since love acts, producing righteous deeds, by its nature.

Is any of this necessarily opposed to the doctrine of Sola Fide?

Hammster · May 5, 2021

That would depend on what the scope of “obligated” is.

ewq1938 · May 5, 2021

fhansen said:
WE ARE NOT MADE RIGHTEOUS BY DOING RIGHTEOUS DEEDS

That's not correct according to the bible:

1Jn_3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

fhansen · May 5, 2021

ewq1938 said:
That's not correct according to the bible:

1Jn_3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

There's no contradiction there though. We must be personally righteous, as John makes clear, and yet the New Testament does nothing if not strive to convince us that we cannot be righteous on our own.

"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

“I will put My law in their minds
and write it on their hearts." Jer 31:33

fhansen · May 5, 2021

Hammster said:
That would depend on what the scope of “obligated” is.

Ok, here's an example:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

ewq1938 · May 5, 2021

fhansen said:
There's no contradiction there though.

There is because you said "we" which means Christians and the verse says we can be righteous by doing righteousness. The only correct statement would be, "THEY are not made righteous by doing righteous deeds."

Hammster · May 5, 2021

fhansen said:
Ok, here's an example:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

Again, it depends on the scope of the word, not the definition.

Hammster · May 5, 2021

ewq1938 said:
That's not correct according to the bible:

1Jn_3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

It doesn’t say that doing righteous deeds makes us righteous. It says that he that doesn’t righteous deeds is righteous.

fhansen · May 5, 2021

ewq1938 said:
There is because you said "we" which means Christians and the verse says we can be righteous by doing righteousness. The only correct statement would be, "THEY are not made righteous by doing righteous deeds."

Well, to get at Luther’s thinking I’d say he meant that no human is made righteous by their righteous deeds; rather, God makes us righteous and then our deeds will be righteous. And so then as John says, which you quoted,
“The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.” 1 John 3:7

And then continues on to explain how this works:
“The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.” 1 John 3:8-10

fhansen · May 5, 2021

Hammster said:
Again, it depends on the scope of the word, not the definition.

I’m not sure what your getting at but Rom 8:12-13 doesn’t define the word “obligation” but applies it to a specific course of action.

Hammster · May 6, 2021

fhansen said:
I’m not sure what your getting at but Rom 8:12-13 doesn’t define the word “obligation” but applies it to a specific course of action.

I’m obligated, as a trucker, to complete the loads assigned to me. If I don’t, I could get fired, and hence no longer be an employee of this company.

My children are obligated to do the chores assigned to them. If they don’t, while there will be consequences to their actions, they will not cease being my children.

Same word, same definition, different scopes.

fhansen · May 6, 2021

Hammster said:
I’m obligated, as a trucker, to complete the loads assigned to me. If I don’t, I could get fired, and hence no longer be an employee of this company.

My children are obligated to do the chores assigned to them. If they don’t, while there will be consequences to their actions, they will not cease being my children.

Same word, same definition, different scopes.

The passage makes it pretty clear. As a believer we're obligated to put to death sin-the deeds of the flesh- in order to realize eternal life. It's not much different from what John said in the passage cited above, with both related to the following:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

Goodhuman · May 6, 2021

Deleted.

Hammster · May 6, 2021

fhansen said:
The passage makes it pretty clear. As a believer we're obligated to put to death sin-the deeds of the flesh- in order to realize eternal life. It's not much different from what John said in the passage cited above, with both related to the following:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

If that’s how you understand it, then no, it’s not sola fide.

fhansen · May 6, 2021

Hammster said:
If that’s how you understand it, then no, it’s not sola fide.

Others may disagree with you. However, what I like about Luther’s quote is that it recognizes that God can and will, indeed, make man righteous, that we’re not hopelessly sinful IOW. The difference is that while Catholicism acknowledges that such is part and parcel of justification, of, again, being made righteous, Protestantism doesn’t I believe. But personally righteous we must be. And Jesus came to finally make that happen, the right way, in partnership with Him:

“...just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21

“Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?” Rom 6:16

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

And so, in line with those as well as such verses as 1 John 3:7 quoted in previous posts above, Rom 2:13 makes too much sense:
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.”

fhansen · May 6, 2021

Hammster said:
My children are obligated to do the chores assigned to them. If they don’t, while there will be consequences to their actions, they will not cease being my children.

If you read 1 John, for example, he says that if they continue to sin then they’re not really God’s children at all, whether that means that they never really were His children, or have shown themselves unworthy to remain in the family. Faith is intended to arrive at more than just...faith. It’s intended to justify us, to make us righteous, as God’s children should be.

Hammster · May 6, 2021

fhansen said:
Others may disagree with you. However, what I like about Luther’s quote is that it recognizes that God can and will, indeed, make man righteous, that we’re not hopelessly sinful IOW.

You really shouldn’t try to distort Luther’s teachings.

fhansen · May 6, 2021

Hammster said:
You really shouldn’t try to distort Luther’s teachings.

I just quoted it, and possibly misunderstood it although it sounded fairly clear. What’s your undistorted understanding BTW? Your post #8 was not particularly clear to me:

Hammster said:
It doesn’t say that doing righteous deeds makes us righteous. It says that he that doesn’t righteous deeds is righteous.

Hammster · May 6, 2021

fhansen said:
I just quoted it, and possibly misunderstood it although it sounded fairly clear. What’s your undistorted understanding BTW? Your post #8 was not particularly clear to me:

My apologies. I misread your post.

fhansen · May 6, 2021

Hammster said:
My apologies. I misread your post.

Thank you-that makes sense.

WE ARE NOT MADE RIGHTEOUS BY DOING RIGHTEOUS DEEDS;

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