A continuous sequence of ‘Sevens’ until Christ

Christian Gedge

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Further to our many discussions from Daniel, I would like to draw attention to how better chronology and sharper dates impact upon prophecy. May we limit this thread to five rarely mentioned aspects: –

  1. Daniel's count of ‘weeks’ did not stand alone; they were one and the same as the sabbatical cycles instituted by Moses. (Leviticus 25)
  2. The Sabbath years were not ‘lost’ as supposed, and can be accurately dated for the full length of the Old Covenant.
  3. The Sabbath and Jubilee years often coincided with major national deliverances in Israel. For example, Assyria. (2 Kings 18:13, 19:35)
  4. Daniel's 490 years was the last of a large repeating cycle, four spans of which can be traced back through Old Testament history.
  5. These Sabbatical cycles were designed to conclude in the New Covenant, and should not be used for futuristic speculation.
I will be taking much of this from my book, ‘The Atonement Clock.’ You are welcome download it, get diagrams, and hear podcasts on website. Then join the discussion as you’re ready.
 

klutedavid

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Further to our many discussions from Daniel, I would like to draw attention to how better chronology and sharper dates impact upon prophecy. May we limit this thread to five rarely mentioned aspects: –

  1. Daniel's count of ‘weeks’ did not stand alone; they were one and the same as the sabbatical cycles instituted by Moses. (Leviticus 25)
  2. The Sabbath years were not ‘lost’ as supposed, and can be accurately dated for the full length of the Old Covenant.
  3. The Sabbath and Jubilee years often coincided with major national deliverances in Israel. For example, Assyria. (2 Kings 18:13, 19:35)
  4. Daniel's 490 years was the last of a large repeating cycle, four spans of which can be traced back through Old Testament history.
  5. These Sabbatical cycles were designed to conclude in the New Covenant, and should not be used for futuristic speculation.
I will be taking much of this from my book, ‘The Atonement Clock.’ You are welcome download it, get diagrams, and hear podcasts on website. Then join the discussion as you’re ready.
Looking forward to reading your book, ‘The Atonement Clock.’
 
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grafted branch

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Further to our many discussions from Daniel, I would like to draw attention to how better chronology and sharper dates impact upon prophecy. May we limit this thread to five rarely mentioned aspects: –

  1. Daniel's count of ‘weeks’ did not stand alone; they were one and the same as the sabbatical cycles instituted by Moses. (Leviticus 25)
  2. The Sabbath years were not ‘lost’ as supposed, and can be accurately dated for the full length of the Old Covenant.
  3. The Sabbath and Jubilee years often coincided with major national deliverances in Israel. For example, Assyria. (2 Kings 18:13, 19:35)
  4. Daniel's 490 years was the last of a large repeating cycle, four spans of which can be traced back through Old Testament history.
  5. These Sabbatical cycles were designed to conclude in the New Covenant, and should not be used for futuristic speculation.
I will be taking much of this from my book, ‘The Atonement Clock.’ You are welcome download it, get diagrams, and hear podcasts on website. Then join the discussion as you’re ready.
I’ll start off with this question, you have the starting point being Jacob or Jacobs dream. Can the pattern of 7’s be used to go back further in time to Abraham or even the first 7 days of creation?
 
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keras

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These Sabbatical cycles were designed to conclude in the New Covenant, and should not be used for futuristic speculation.
As the New Covenant has not yet been made between the Lord and His faithful people and there was a future for humankind after Jesus Ascended, then; the Sabbath cycles have continued.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 prophesies a Covenant that is quite plainly not yet in effect. The Law is not yet written in our hearts, we still have to teach one another to know the Lord and our sins continue unforgiven.

Note: that it s Ephraim and the Northern 10 tribes, who will go back to the holy Land, following the markers they made as the migrated across Europe and how the Lord will bless them. Jeremiah 31:20-25, Psalms 107
 
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Christian Gedge

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I’ll start off with this question, you have the starting point being Jacob or Jacobs dream. Can the pattern of 7’s be used to go back further in time to Abraham or even the first 7 days of creation?

My wife has a saying, “God knows but he won’t tell.” As for me, I must admit that my chronology only goes back to Abraham‘s father with any confidence. There seems to be a span of 490 years from Peleg until Bethel but I’m a bit hazy concerning it because I suspect there are gaps in the early Genesis chronologies as given.

But Jacob’s Bethel dream marks the start of Israel. It was 1927 BC. Exactly 4 spans of 490 years before Peters dream. Have a look at this!

490-year-eras.png
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Hi the new covenant is certainly in effect but how do you explain the verses that follow that promise most notably that Israel will not cease to be a nation is God's eyes and that the LORD would not cast off the seed of Israel for all they have done. Now the institution of the new covenant was the event the Jesus knew would trigger the 70 AD destruction by Israel not receiving it. Furthermore that chapter end with the promise of the city of Jerusalem being rebuild when the valley is full of dead bodies and from that time on it will be holy and never thrown down again. This to me is making the Ezekiel 36 onward prophecies future and in that day when they are gathered back to the mountains of Israel God will give them a new heart and this is when He takes away the reproach of the nations. If you get down to it the scope of Daniel 9 is Daniels people and the holy city and if you look at all the prophecy regarding those entities I see Dan 9 is still unfulfilled and has many specific details lined up.
 
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Timtofly

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Hi the new covenant is certainly in effect but how do you explain the verses that follow that promise most notably that Israel will not cease to be a nation is God's eyes and that the LORD would not cast off the seed of Israel for all they have done. Now the institution of the new covenant was the event the Jesus knew would trigger the 70 AD destruction by Israel not receiving it. Furthermore that chapter end with the promise of the city of Jerusalem being rebuild when the valley is full of dead bodies and from that time on it will be holy and never thrown down again. This to me is making the Ezekiel 36 onward prophecies future and in that day when they are gathered back to the mountains of Israel God will give them a new heart and this is when He takes away the reproach of the nations. If you get down to it the scope of Daniel 9 is Daniels people and the holy city and if you look at all the prophecy regarding those entities I see Dan 9 is still unfulfilled and has many specific details lined up.

You mean the one that has been new since Adam was placed in the Garden? Paul mentions that Adam brought sin in and Christ takes sin away. Since the Cross, sin is taken away, one dead body at a time. Some to eternal damnation, some to life everlasting. One less sinner in the world.
 
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keras

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the new covenant is certainly in effect
Really?
Jeremiah 31:31-34 prophesies a Covenant that is quite plainly not yet in effect. The Law is not yet written in our hearts, we still have to teach one another to know the Lord and our sins continue unforgiven.
These are confirmed in Hebrews 8:8-12 and none of it is in effect yet. The Promise is given and Jesus has done His part, thats all.
but how do you explain the verses that follow that promise most notably that Israel will not cease to be a nation is God's eyes and that the LORD would not cast off the seed of Israel for all they have done.
Don't you know that ancient Israel was divided into 2 Houses?
The House of Judah has remained a visible entity, but the House of Israel was scattered among the nations, lost their identity and has not yet been regathered.
Daniels people, the Jews; will rejoin their brethren, but only as a remnant. Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27
 
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grafted branch

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Hi the new covenant is certainly in effect but how do you explain the verses that follow that promise most notably that Israel will not cease to be a nation is God's eyes and that the LORD would not cast off the seed of Israel for all they have done. Now the institution of the new covenant was the event the Jesus knew would trigger the 70 AD destruction by Israel not receiving it. Furthermore that chapter end with the promise of the city of Jerusalem being rebuild when the valley is full of dead bodies and from that time on it will be holy and never thrown down again. This to me is making the Ezekiel 36 onward prophecies future and in that day when they are gathered back to the mountains of Israel God will give them a new heart and this is when He takes away the reproach of the nations. If you get down to it the scope of Daniel 9 is Daniels people and the holy city and if you look at all the prophecy regarding those entities I see Dan 9 is still unfulfilled and has many specific details lined up.
I’ll take a stab at this; the name of the book is The Atonement Clock. The clock is based on the celestial movements of the sun and moon. Genesis 1:14-18 gives the ordinances of the Sun, moon, and stars.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 gives the description of the new covenant, but Jeremiah 31:36 says if the ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars depart from before him, Israel will cease from being a nation before Him forever.

The ordinances (Genesis 1:14-18) which define what a day and a year are, are before God in Jeremiah 31:36, which I think everyone would agree with. The same ordinances that define what a day and a year are, do not appear to be with God any longer in 2 Peter 3:8 because one day is not one day, it’s as a 1,000 years. So at some point in time the clock that God is using can’t be discerned any longer by observing the celestial movements.

So I would say Gods clock can’t be used to project any future events beyond the time that 2 Peter was written.
 
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Christian Gedge

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So, let’s have a look at the first point on the opening post.

1. Daniel's count of ‘weeks’ did not stand alone; they were one and the same as the sabbatical cycles instituted by Moses.

The continuous count of sabbatical years is perhaps the least researched aspect of Daniel's prophecy even though Moses had instructed the Israelites to start counting after entering the land. (Leviticus 25:1-7)

My book shows these in a continuous timeline at the bottom of each page. Each little rectangle represents a Hebrew year of Abib to Abib. (April approx) and a red dot on every seventh year means it was a ‘Sabbath.’ The whole span of seven years was called a ‘Week.’

When the Sabbath years are plotted scrupulously from the first one, 1389 BC, we reach another Sabbath - 458 BC. This is the year immediately preceding the first year of the last cycle of seventy sevens. In other words, it was 457 BC which was the terminus a quo of Daniels 70 weeks.

So, assuming we’ve got our first Sabbath date right, we now have proof that Daniel's ‘weeks’ were actually the sabbatical cycles. Big implications here. :wave:
 
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grafted branch

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So, assuming we’ve got our first Sabbath date right, we now have proof that Daniel's ‘weeks’ were actually the sabbatical cycles. Big implications here.
On page 32 you give 11 indicators for determining a Sabbath year and as stated the probability of a year being a Sabbath increases with the number of indicators that occur at the same time.

If I look at an event such as the fall of Jericho it has several indicators occurring, all Israel is gathered together at one place and trumpets are being blown. Looking at the chart on page 30 it has the conquest of Canaan starting in 1404 and ending in 1396. You show a Sabbath year in 1403 BC but don’t show the fall of Jericho on the timeline. I know Jericho was the first city conquered, so most likely it happened in 1404 BC?

The fall of Jericho involves the number 7 multiple times, yet this event doesn’t seem to line up with a Sabbath year or Jubilee. My question is when we see something like this that doesn’t fall on the Sabbatical cycle should this influence the deeper meaning of the event? Put another way, since Daniels 70 weeks line up with the Sabbatical cycle and the Jericho event does not, should we draw the conclusion that the spiritual meaning of the Sabbatical cycle is not the spiritual meaning of the Jericho event?
 
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Timtofly

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On page 32 you give 11 indicators for determining a Sabbath year and as stated the probability of a year being a Sabbath increases with the number of indicators that occur at the same time.

If I look at an event such as the fall of Jericho it has several indicators occurring, all Israel is gathered together at one place and trumpets are being blown. Looking at the chart on page 30 it has the conquest of Canaan starting in 1404 and ending in 1396. You show a Sabbath year in 1403 BC but don’t show the fall of Jericho on the timeline. I know Jericho was the first city conquered, so most likely it happened in 1404 BC?

The fall of Jericho involves the number 7 multiple times, yet this event doesn’t seem to line up with a Sabbath year or Jubilee. My question is when we see something like this that doesn’t fall on the Sabbatical cycle should this influence the deeper meaning of the event? Put another way, since Daniels 70 weeks line up with the Sabbatical cycle and the Jericho event does not, should we draw the conclusion that the spiritual meaning of the Sabbatical cycle is not the spiritual meaning of the Jericho event?
Was not Jericho the Triumphet entry into the Promised Land? It was offset by 40 years, because of unbelief. Should it have been 40 years sooner? Should Moses have been born 40 years earlier to make up for the difference?
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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if you look q
I’ll take a stab at this; the name of the book is The Atonement Clock. The clock is based on the celestial movements of the sun and moon. Genesis 1:14-18 gives the ordinances of the Sun, moon, and stars.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 gives the description of the new covenant, but Jeremiah 31:36 says if the ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars depart from before him, Israel will cease from being a nation before Him forever.

The ordinances (Genesis 1:14-18) which define what a day and a year are, are before God in Jeremiah 31:36, which I think everyone would agree with. The same ordinances that define what a day and a year are, do not appear to be with God any longer in 2 Peter 3:8 because one day is not one day, it’s as a 1,000 years. So at some point in time the clock that God is using can’t be discerned any longer by observing the celestial movements.

So I would say Gods clock can’t be used to project any future events beyond the time that 2 Peter was written.[/QUOT

Hi that was an interesting response. I think the contest of Jer 31 ties in with the theme of chapter 30 which is the day of Jacobs trouble yet he will be saved out of it. Chapter 30 is a latter day prophecy and it includes both nations.

For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.


So now in the day of Jacobs trouble we see David being raised up too. Now this is also in Hosea and Ezekiel and one should note all those have to say about the time David is raised up.


23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.

So this is a latter day prophecy now chapter 31 is linked directly to these promises in chapter 30.

1 “At the same time,” says the LORD, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”
2 Thus says the LORD:
“The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness—
Israel, when I went to give him rest.”
3 The LORD has appeared of old to me, saying:
“Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love;
Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.
4 Again I will build you, and you shall be rebuilt,
O virgin of Israel!

Note here at that same time/// that is the latter days the time of Jacobs trouble. It notes that they shall be built and when we get to the end of chapter 31 the city is needing to be rebuilt at a time when dead bodies fill the valley and from that time on it will be holy and never thrown down again.

This is future and if you look at Zech 14 you can see indeed the day of Jacobs trouble and him being saved out of it.


It is the fulfilment of Luke 1 when Jesus takes the throne of David and delivers Israel from their enemies and from that time on they worship and serve the LORD without fear and in holiness all the days of their lives. This is coming.
 
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grafted branch

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Christian Gedge

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On page 32 you give 11 indicators for determining a Sabbath year and as stated the probability of a year being a Sabbath increases with the number of indicators that occur at the same time.

If I look at an event such as the fall of Jericho it has several indicators occurring, all Israel is gathered together at one place and trumpets are being blown. Looking at the chart on page 30 it has the conquest of Canaan starting in 1404 and ending in 1396. You show a Sabbath year in 1403 BC but don’t show the fall of Jericho on the timeline. I know Jericho was the first city conquered, so most likely it happened in 1404 BC?
Thanks for keeping this thread on track. Yes, Jericho fell in 1404 BC and Sabbath was the following year, 1403 BC. The indicator of a Sabbath year to which we refer always happened on the seventh month, and was for the purpose of reading the law. (Deuteronomy 31:10-12) However, the battle of Jericho happened in the first month, and was for the purpose of war. (Joshua 5:10)

... since Daniels 70 weeks line up with the Sabbatical cycle and the Jericho event does not, should we draw the conclusion that the spiritual meaning of the Sabbatical cycle is not the spiritual meaning of the Jericho event?
Yes, but two other things may interest you concerning this. The seven days marching around Jericho equaled the 7-day feast of unleavened bread. Secondly, the day of gathering to hear the law is recorded a few chapters on. (Joshua 8:30-35) This, I believe, was the 1403 BC Sabbath.
 
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Timtofly

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Yes

No

No


I have no idea why you are asking these questions. I asked if the spiritual meaning of an event could be influenced if it doesn’t line up with the Sabbatical cycle.
Is not sin that causes unbelief a spiritual matter? Look at Abraham's unbelief, or at least he listened to Sarah's unbelief and had a son Ishmael. This set back the Promised Land by 600 years. Yet we would have never had the Exodus and Moses, if Abraham had been faithful in all things.
 
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Christian Gedge

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Was not Jericho the Triumphet entry into the Promised Land? It was offset by 40 years, because of unbelief. Should it have been 40 years sooner? Should Moses have been born 40 years earlier to make up for the difference?
Thanks Tim. Yes, the Israelites took seven years to conquer the land. But it should have been from 1440 BC to 1437 BC instead of wasting time in the wilderness. But Moses age doesn't matter. Please see diagram on page 26 of The Atonement Clock.
 
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DavidPT

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Further to our many discussions from Daniel, I would like to draw attention to how better chronology and sharper dates impact upon prophecy. May we limit this thread to five rarely mentioned aspects: –

  1. The Sabbath and Jubilee years often coincided with major national deliverances in Israel. For example, Assyria. (2 Kings 18:13, 19:35)
  2. Daniel's 490 years was the last of a large repeating cycle, four spans of which can be traced back through Old Testament history.

Speaking of number 1 then, and assuming the stoning of Stephen ended the last of a large repeating cycle involving
490 years, in what way did the stoning of Stephen lead to the national deliverance of Israel at the time? If you instead say that it happened in the midst of the 70th week, in what way is 486.5 the same as 490 years? That seems to contradict what you are arguing in number 1. How could the Sabbath and Jubilee years coincide with the midst of the final week rather than at the end of it? To me though, when I read Ezekiel 38-39, for example, I do tend to see the national deliverance of Israel at the end of that. But those chapters haven't even been fulfilled yet, and in my view it is at the end of the 70th week that the delivernce of national Israel comes per Ezekiel 38 and 39.
 
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Christian Gedge

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These Sabbatical cycles were designed to conclude in the New Covenant, and should not be used for futuristic speculation.

As the New Covenant has not yet been made between the Lord and His faithful people and there was a future for humankind after Jesus Ascended, then; the Sabbath cycles have continued.
A problem with what you are saying is that the Old Covenant was a complete system. So, if we choose to follow the 7-year ‘weeks’ into our present day we must, by the same logic, also be keeping the 7-day Sabbaths. The feasts too. This is the kind of thinking that has spoiled the modern Adventist and Messianic movements.

Your postponement of the New Covenant shocks me to be quite honest with you.
 
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