Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

fhansen

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I know that a debate has continued since Calvin and will continue until the Rapture BUT I'm curious how the debate on grace alone and predestination are rationalized with scriptures that mention "seek the Lord" "answering the door" (Rev 3:20). Why answer the door if it's not necessary? It certainly looks like some action is required on our part. Why "seek" Hebrews 11:6. I just cannot ignore the simple logic in the scripture and go through scripture gymnastics to see things differently. When scripture is defined by the context it seems overwhelmingly clear to me. If exercising faith is a "Works" then answering the door and seeking are much more so.
The debate actually began way before Calvin but while neither the historical church nor most of the Reformers were willing to come down on the side of strict determinism, Calvin obviously made that error into personal dogma. But there are way too many "ifs" in Scripture, along with admonitions and warnings and encouragements to believers to keep on the right path in order to gain eternal life. On top of that no one can know with 100% perfect certainty that they're saved anyway, or predict their own perseverance to the end.

“If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Matt 16:24

If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22
 
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fhansen

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I know that a debate has continued since Calvin and will continue until the Rapture BUT I'm curious how the debate on grace alone and predestination are rationalized with scriptures that mention "seek the Lord" "answering the door" (Rev 3:20). Why answer the door if it's not necessary? It certainly looks like some action is required on our part. Why "seek" Hebrews 11:6. I just cannot ignore the simple logic in the scripture and go through scripture gymnastics to see things differently. When scripture is defined by the context it seems overwhelmingly clear to me. If exercising faith is a "Works" then answering the door and seeking are much more so.
Works are good, just not works of the law, works or righteousness based on the law to prove my own "righteousness", as if we have any apart from God. This is why communion with God is the basis of justice or righteousness for man-and constitutes a major difference between the old and new covenants. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" John 15:5

Works such as those referred to in Eph 2:10, or those things done "for the least of these" in Matt 25, or the good produced in Rom 2:7, are works of grace, works of love to put it most accurately, a love enabled by that communion or relationship with God that we enter into via faith.
 
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Good Day, PTP

The context of Rev 3:20 is the church... not sure what that has to do with Predestination:
Are some Predested to be born again but fall away? (James 5:19-20) I certainly believe in predestination in the scripture but I'm not of the belief that God picked winners and losers before they were born. The road to hell is a highway but Jesus has provided an exit ramp if WE choose it.
 
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[QUOTE="The scriptures are the foundation of my faith AND Peter was never in Rome..[/QUOTE]


Good Day, PTP

Well you are in good company:

They [heretics] gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures...We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith....It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and to demonstrate the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these heretics rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to 'the perfect' apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon to the Church, but if they should fall away, the direst calamity....proofs of the things which are contained in the Scriptures cannot be shown except from the Scriptures themselves." - Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 1:8:1, 3:1:1, 3:3:1, 3:12:9)

Peter in Rome... ok and the moon is made of cheese? I have to suppose you have been in Rome for thousand of years and can attest you have not seen Him there?

In Him,

Bill
 
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Are some Predested to be born again but fall away? (James 5:19-20) I certainly believe in predestination in the scripture but I'm not of the belief that God picked winners and losers before they were born. The road to hell is a highway but Jesus has provided an exit ramp if WE choose it.

Good Day PTP

Funny you did not interact with any of my questions....

OK...so God Births some again ( as we can not rebirth ourselves God does that)

Jn 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Then you asset they fall away so... when did God learn this.. when did he know that was going to happen (before or after he rebirths some)

What was God's purpose in rebirthing some... did that purpose fail?

So I guess God is thankful to you for your choice.. he provided and you caused it to happen kind of like rolling the dice.

Why did you choose and other don't?

In Him,

Bill
 
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[QUOTE="The scriptures are the foundation of my faith AND Peter was never in Rome..


Good Day, PTP

Well you are in good company:

They [heretics] gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures...We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith....It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and to demonstrate the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these heretics rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to 'the perfect' apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon to the Church, but if they should fall away, the direst calamity....proofs of the things which are contained in the Scriptures cannot be shown except from the Scriptures themselves." - Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 1:8:1, 3:1:1, 3:3:1, 3:12:9)

Peter in Rome... ok and the moon is made of cheese? I have to suppose you have been in Rome for thousand of years and can attest you have not seen Him there?

In Him,

Bill[/QUOTE]

Iranaeus specifically stated that the Catholic Church was founded by Paul and Peter in Adversus Haereses book 3 chapter 3 paragraph 2

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faithpreached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority
 
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fhansen

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No, but rather Ezekiel 36:26-27 and John 6:44. God forces no one to be saved, nor does he force others to be damned.
And yet if the man cannot help but will otherwise then he's certainly not willing freely either. His will would be determined, if "forced" is objectionable. And if determined, then he couldn't be logically culpable for his sin, let alone worthy of eternal torment.
 
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Good Day, PTP

Well you are in good company:

They [heretics] gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures...We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith....It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and to demonstrate the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these heretics rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to 'the perfect' apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon to the Church, but if they should fall away, the direst calamity....proofs of the things which are contained in the Scriptures cannot be shown except from the Scriptures themselves." - Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 1:8:1, 3:1:1, 3:3:1, 3:12:9)

Peter in Rome... ok and the moon is made of cheese? I have to suppose you have been in Rome for thousand of years and can attest you have not seen Him there?

In Him,

Bill

Iranaeus specifically stated that the Catholic Church was founded by Paul and Peter in Adversus Haereses book 3 chapter 3 paragraph 2

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faithpreached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority[/QUOTE]

Good Day, BNR

Thanks for that.. I know there are other ECF that mention Peter being in Rome at some point.

Thanks again!

IN Him,

Bill
 
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Thanks for that.. I know there are other ECF that mention Peter being in Rome at some point.
No Sir I was not in Rome when the Roman church made claim to Peter as the first Pope nor was Peter. The assumption of Peter being in Rome is not supported in the scriptures. With a clear track record of the Roman Catholic Church committing numerous forgeries, lies, and deceptions why would you assume that Peter was the Rock and the foundation of their doctrine? You only need to read the scripture and writings of Peter himself to understand what a change of belief he would have had to undergo in order to be considered the first Pope, a married Pope at that. Prior to the formation of the Roman Catholic Church as we know it today the whole body of Christ was referred to as Catholics (Universal Church) so It's no surprise that some early writings would say that Peter was an early founder of the Church. He was an early founder just not in Rome and of the Roman Catholic Church. I think Paul would have mentioned Peter in his letters since he listed everyone else he was associated with while in Rome. I'll get my understanding directly from the scripture and not add to it from early writings. I can certainly understand why the Roman Catholic Church needed to have Peter there. Their misrepresentation of the scripture to support their claim of the Churches foundation no doubt helped to convert many. One would also have to believe that the Apostle Paul lied in Roman 15:20
 
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Carl Emerson

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I do not disagree with that. I do not think predetermined prophesy implies that some are chosen for salvation and others are not. I also do not think that just because God knows what our choices are going to be that he eliminates free will from our life.

The one thing I'm very certain of is that this issue will not be resolved until the day of judgment.

Can I suggest that those truly born again must give up their free will in order to have Him come in and take control...
 
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Carl Emerson

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We will have to agree to disagree. Israel was founded on the Old Covenant, and Hebrews 8:13 states that the old has become obsolete. There will not be a third temple, there will not be re-instated sacrifices. What we are seeing currently is an act of rebellion against the Lord of hosts. This is why they remain in conflict with the Palestinians and their Temple in rubble. They are, without Christ, nothing.

But we are called to love them...
 
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Carl Emerson

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Yes, it is called a New Heavens and New Earth, but this is not to be confused with the New Heavens and New Earth in Revelation because they do not sound even remotely the same.

Would this not suggest your theology is wanting...

Same words yet different... ????

Do you really think God produced a bible for the world to read but chose to make it so complicated that only Bible Highlighter and a few others of his ilk would understand it?

The same Jesus that held babes on His knee and said let them come unto me - produced a book that the simple would be confused by?

The Lord I know is LOVING...

Not wishing that anyone NOT be saved...

and certainly not putting a theological stumbling stone at the feet of the simple.
 
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No Sir I was not in Rome when the Roman church made claim to Peter as the first Pope nor was Peter. The assumption of Peter being in Rome is not supported in the scriptures. With a clear track record of the Roman Catholic Church committing numerous forgeries, lies, and deceptions why would you assume that Peter was the Rock and the foundation of their doctrine? You only need to read the scripture and writings of Peter himself to understand what a change of belief he would have had to undergo in order to be considered the first Pope, a married Pope at that. Prior to the formation of the Roman Catholic Church as we know it today the whole body of Christ was referred to as Catholics (Universal Church) so It's no surprise that some early writings would say that Peter was an early founder of the Church. He was an early founder just not in Rome and of the Roman Catholic Church. I think Paul would have mentioned Peter in his letters since he listed everyone else he was associated with while in Rome. I'll get my understanding directly from the scripture and not add to it from early writings. I can certainly understand why the Roman Catholic Church needed to have Peter there. Their misrepresentation of the scripture to support their claim of the Churches foundation no doubt helped to convert many. One would also have to believe that the Apostle Paul lied in Roman 15:20

If you say a person can’t claim that Peter was in Rome because it’s not supported in the scriptures then by that same rational you can’t say that Peter wasn’t in Rome because the scriptures don’t support that claim either. Paul mentioning some of the people he was with in Rome doesn’t mean that Peter never went to Rome, because it’s quite possible that Peter went to Rome after Paul wrote Romans and it’s uncertain whether or not they were ever in Rome at the same time.
 
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fhansen

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If you say a person can’t claim that Peter was in Rome because it’s not supported in the scriptures then by that same rational you can’t say that Peter wasn’t in Rome because the scriptures don’t support that claim either. Paul mentioning some of the people he was with in Rome doesn’t mean that Peter never went to Rome, because it’s quite possible that Peter went to Rome after Paul wrote Romans and it’s uncertain whether or not they were ever in Rome at the same time.
Few take time to study the history, look for themselves into original documents, research and consider the actual teachings, etc, while they may well prefer to believe what they want, and to doubt what they want. I used to do it. And there's a never-ending supply of pop theories and mythologies and speculations out there about many historical entities and events. Anyway, the Catholic Church provides a big and poplar target, sometimes deserved but often not at all for the reasons cited, or often with a lack of understanding of the times the church has lived through or the motivations behind one historical event or another. Or the enormous good the church has accomplished in this world.
 
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Few take time to study the history, look for themselves into original documents, research and consider the actual teachings, etc, while they may well prefer to believe what they want, and to doubt what they want. I used to do it. And there's a never-ending supply of pop theories and mythologies and speculations out there about many historical entities and events. Anyway, the Catholic Church provides a big and poplar target, sometimes deserved but often not at all for the reasons cited, or often with a lack of understanding of the times the church has lived through or the motivations behind one historical event or another. Or the enormous good the church has accomplished in this world.

Well Iranaeus’ writings have been validated by all of the apostolic churches including those who are in opposition to Rome and all of this took place over a thousand years before the protestant’s sola scriptura opposed the traditions of the church. Now I’m not an advocate for Roman Catholicism but Peter being a cofounder of the church in Rome has been accepted by all of the apostolic churches since at least the second century and most likely even before that, it just wasn’t recorded in writing.
 
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fhansen

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Well Iranaeus’ writings have been validated by all of the apostolic churches including those who are in opposition to Rome and all of this took place over a thousand years before the protestant’s sola scriptura opposed the traditions of the church. Now I’m not an advocate for Roman Catholicism but Peter being a cofounder of the church in Rome has been accepted by all of the apostolic churches since at least the second century and most likely even before that, it just wasn’t recorded in writing.
Yes, and most of the contested teachings or doctrines are shared by the eastern churches as well. And while the historical truth should be diligently sought and accepted for what it is, irresponsible or self-serving revisionism often abounds. And IMO like it or not we in the west all descend in some manner from the Catholic Church and have received a common heritage linked to the past that at least still contains many aspects that impact us all positively.
 
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Surely you can reword it in modern terminology in your own words here for us instead of having me to go fish about what other men say you believe. I am honestly not interested in looking at Reformed writings of any kind. So either you provide a brief explanation on Unconditoinal Election in your own words in how I got it wrong, or we can simply move on, my friend.

I have talked with plenty of Calvinists over the past 10 years, and I have read many Calvinist claims and I know about the five points of Calvinism. Yes, there are other flavors of Calvinism out there. There are 4 point Calvinists, etc. But I am not interested in debating the other myriad of differences of Calvinism out there.
I will move on because you do not want help or truth, which is fine with me.
I have been at this for years and can spot the desire to elude truth. No need to pretend otherwise.
You do not understand the position because you cannot explain the teaching accurately.
 
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With a clear track record of the Roman Catholic Church committing numerous forgeries, lies, and deceptions why would you assume that Peter was the Rock and the foundation of their doctrine?

I am a Protestant minister, a traditional Congregationalist, and I take exception to that. I am unaware of any institutional problems of actual dishonesty regarding doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church. The only period of time where there existed what some people call “pious frauds” I am aware of is the period immediately leading up to the Reformation, relating to the sale of indulgences, which was a practice that in the wake of the Reformation, the Roman church recognized as prone to abuse and discontinued. Otherwise, any lies and deceptions would be the same as in any other church, which is to say, there exist politics in every church, and unfortunately not everyone who is ordained is worthy to be a presbyter or bishop.

Now, specifically regarding Peter being the Rock, the Oriental Orthodox churches believe this, as do some Eastern Orthodox, in that Peter according to tradition recognized by all three churches was the initial leader of the Church in Antioch, before moving to Rome. Additionally, Mark the Evangelist is traditionally recognized by all Orthodox Christians (Eastern and Oriental) and by many Anglicans including the large number who live in Egypt as being Peter’s disciple and the first leader of the church in Alexandria.

Consequently, there are three “Petrine Sees”, Antioch, Rome and Alexandria, and in the early church, these three churches were the most important centers of Christian leadership during the period between the destruction and rebuilding of Jerusalem in the early second and early fourth century, prior to the relocation of the Roman capital to Byzantion, which became known as Constantinople and as New Rome.

There is a compelling scriptural and historical reason for Peter to have travelled to Rome to lead the church there, and his name is Simon Magus. All of the ancient histories agree he travelled west, impersonating the Apostles, and ultimately wound up in Rome. Whereas Paul was a prisoner in Rome, and ministered to the gentiles through his disciples, it makes sense that Peter would go to Rome to evangelize the Jewish population and also to debunk Simon Magus.

We see examples in the New Testament of Peter having a limited role as servant-leader, not absolute, because Paul, for example, was free to disagree with him firmly and persuaded him to his position, and James the son of Alfeus, the first bishop of the Church of Jerusalem and author of the epistle clearly was presiding at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, but it is clear, and indeed undisputed among the great Protestant reformers (Hus, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Melancthon, and others) that Peter did have some leadership role, and the Orthodox agree, even though they, particularly the Eastern Orthodox, interpret Matthew 16 as attributing much of the authority mentioned therein to the Apostles as a whole, which seems reasonable to me.

However, I completely reject the idea of any malfeasance or intentional deception regarding the general doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. They may be mistaken on some points, but that does not prove any kind of malfeasance. Conversely, I believe we can show malfeasance in several non-Christian cults which exist on the fringes of Christianity and seek to bait and trap Christians, for example, the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Christian Science (which fortunately is dying off; that cult is particularly insidious because of its policy of discouraging to an extreme degree members from seeking medical attention, which has lead to many premature and preventable deaths such as that of Jim Henson, who died from an untreated throat infection; conversely, the Roman Catholic Church and other mainstream churches including Adventists, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists and other denominations, and the Jewish community, built many exceedingly good hospitals around the world).
 
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I will move on because you do not want help or truth, which is fine with me.
I have been at this for years and can spot the desire to elude truth. No need to pretend otherwise.
You do not understand the position because you cannot explain the teaching accurately.

Right, but your not explaining does not help anyone. Are you here to teach what you believe? Remember, your words are public and they are not only to help me alone but others. So why not give a more accurate description in how I am wrong in simple words for everyone to read here? I will tell you why. It's because I heard Calvinists make these claims many times before. They say, “You don't know Calvinism.” Yet, when they make this kind of claim, most of the time, they never really explain anything.

Anyways, I am not wrong for having problems with Calvinism.

For instance, let’s consider this quote from John Piper’s ministry website, Desiring God:

God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3).

John Calvin himself taught:

“…how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…

full


Calvinists are seriously divided among themselves and always have been. There is Supralapsarianismvs. Sublapsarianism vs. Infralapsarianism. ‘The Supralapsarians hold that God decreed the fall of Adam; the Sublapsarians, that he permitted it’ (McClintock & Strong). The Calvinists at the Synod of Dort were divided on many issues, including lapsarianism. The Swiss Calvinists who wrote the Helvetic Consensus Formula in 1675 were in conflict with the French Calvinists of the School of Saumur. There are Strict Calvinists and Moderate Calvinists, Hyper and non-Hyper (differing especially on reprobation and the extent of the atonement and whether God loves all men), 5 pointers, 4 pointers, 3 pointers, 2 pointers. In America Calvinists were divided into Old School and the New School. As we have seen, the Calvinists of England were divided in the 19th century.

Whenever, therefore, one tries to state TULIP theology and then refute it, there are Calvinists who will argue with you that you are misrepresenting Calvinism. It is not so much that you are misrepresenting Calvinism, though. You might be quoting directly from various Calvinists or even from Calvin himself. The problem is that you are misrepresenting THEIR Calvinism!

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YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND CALVINISM!
 
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Would this not suggest your theology is wanting...

Same words yet different... ????

Do you really think God produced a bible for the world to read but chose to make it so complicated that only Bible Highlighter and a few others of his ilk would understand it?

The same Jesus that held babes on His knee and said let them come unto me - produced a book that the simple would be confused by?

The Lord I know is LOVING...

Not wishing that anyone NOT be saved...

and certainly not putting a theological stumbling stone at the feet of the simple.

I am not sure what your words here have anything to do with what I stated previously. I would agree that the Lord is loving and I would agree that the Lord desires all to be saved.

As for understanding the Scriptures:

I am just offering you what I feel what the Bible says plainly (involving the context). If you do not agree, that's okay. We can agree to disagree in love.

Peace be unto you in the Lord.
 
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