Per coffee's suggestion, creating this thread special.
I disagree. Our Savior is coming back so we do not have to live in a world full of sin. The promises from Jesus are true.I can't talk about such matters. We will see. But it's not necessary he to back. People must become members of his kingdom. And his kingdom is inside us.
I have spoken with enough SDA's and former SDA's to know better. So if SDA's don't believe man is saved by works, then why do they believe that those who worship God on Sunday instead of Saturday will receive the mark of the beast? Why do SDA's make such a huge issue out of keeping the sabbath day if they don't believe it's necessary for salvation? Why are SDA's constantly stressing obeying the commandments (10 commandments from the old covenant of law) if they don't believe it's a salvation issue? Why do SDA's teach that when a believer’s name comes up in an Investigative Judgment, God will weigh the good works against the sins. Adventist’s teach, if those sins that were confessed and had been "pardoned" were not perfectly overcome, they will go against the believer. Bottom line, an Adventist must perfectly overcome their sin in order to stand before God. So sinless perfection? This is performance based works salvation - "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works."Hi Danthemailman,
No SDA believes we are saved by "works" as stated many times.
And there it is. The SDA gospel in a nutshell.The only scripture spoken and personally written by the hand of God in the entire Bible is The Ten commandments, now written in our heart in the New Covenant. God asked us to obey all Ten commandments, not just nine.
What will the judgment for the lost dead determine? All who are lost and names are not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. So will the judgment for all the lost dead be the same? Matthew 23:14 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.There is clear scripture telling us we are not saved by works. What you are confusing though is how we are "saved" and how we are "judged" which are two different things. We are saved by God's grace (His gift) by our faith. But how are we judged according to scripture?
Revelations 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
2 Corinthians: 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad...
I am sorry to hear this. Why do you not believe the promises of Jesus that He is coming back for us?I disagree.
Those who teach salvation by works typically confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. If one reads Romans 2:4-7 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works.
Again, you are confusing how we are saved vs. how we are judged. I am telling you how we are saved -God's grace through our faith yet you still refuse to believe me. It's pretty unfair to make blanket statements about SDA members because we have regular SDA posters on CF who have all told you the same thing, but instead you put words in our mouth that we have told you over and over it is not what we believe. God's grace and His judgement are two different things.I have spoken with enough SDA's and former SDA's to know better. So if SDA's don't believe man is saved by works, then why do they believe that those who worship God on Sunday instead of Saturday will receive the mark of the beast? Why do SDA's make such a huge issue out of keeping the sabbath day if they don't believe it's necessary for salvation? Why are SDA's constantly stressing obeying the commandments (10 commandments from the old covenant of law) if they don't believe it's a salvation issue? Why do SDA's teach that when a believer’s name comes up in an Investigative Judgment, God will weigh the good works against the sins. Adventist’s teach, if those sins that were confessed and had been "pardoned" were not perfectly overcome, they will go against the believer. Bottom line, an Adventist must perfectly overcome their sin in order to stand before God. So sinless perfection? This is performance based works salvation - "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works."
And there it is. The SDA gospel in a nutshell.
What will the judgment for the lost dead determine? All who are lost and names are not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. So will the judgment for all the lost dead be the same? Matthew 23:14 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
Judgement for believers at the judgment seat of Christ is not to determine salvation, but rewards. 1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
How am I putting words in your mouth? If we are saved, then why would there be an investigative judgment of works to determines one’s salvation? If we leave this earth having been saved by grace through faith then a judgment is not going to change that outcome.Again, you are confusing how we are saved vs. how we are judged. I am telling you how we are saved - God's grace through our faith yet you still refuse to believe me. It's pretty unfair to make blanket statements about SDA members because we have regular SDA posters on CF who have all told you the same thing, but instead you put words in our mouth that we have told you over and over it is not what we believe. God's grace and His judgement are two different things.
How am I putting words in your mouth? If we are saved, then why would there be an investigative judgment of works to determines one’s salvation? If we leave this earth having been saved by grace through faith then a judgment is not going to change that outcome.
I've had multiple people (who are not SDA) also claim they don't teach that man is saved by works, then turn around and contradict themselves. Once example: I was recently in a conversation with a Roman Catholic who claimed that the RCC does not teach that we are saved by works and I quoted Ephesians 2:8,9 to him. He interpreted that passage of scripture to mean that we are saved by grace through faith "infused" with works, just not by specific works of the law. Saved through faith + "these" works (good works) just not "those" works (works of the law). I soon discovered the root of the problem of his argument after he further made this statement below:
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..
His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith mixed with works.
Another example is a conversation I recently had with someone who attends the church of Christ. After stating that the church of Christ does not teach that man is saved by works, he then contradicted himself by stating, "it is works of obedience that help to save us and just not works of the law or works of merit."
I have no problem with the verses you cited in post #30 and none of those verses teach salvation by works. Jesus clearly drew the line in the sand on who is saved and who is condemned in John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. So those who believe in/trust in/rely in Him as the all sufficient means of their salvation are not condemned.Does scripture teach us that everyone is saved? No, it doesn't, although Jesus wants to save everyone. I already provide a plethora of scripture telling us there will be a judgement. You can refer back to post #30. SDA did not write the Bible. Jesus will decide who is saved and who is not. I don't recommend ignoring scripture because you don't agree with it.
The verses refer to judgment based on what we do, not salvation. Jesus also saidI have no problem with the verses you cited in post #30 and none of those verses teach salvation by works. Jesus clearly drew the line in the sand on who is saved and who is condemned in John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. So those who believe in/trust in/rely in Him as the all sufficient means of their salvation are not condemned.
In 1 John 5:11-13, we read - And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
You seem to isolate and obsess over verses on "commandment keeping" as if we are saved by grace through commandment keeping instead of by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) So believing in Jesus is merely a "step" towards obtaining salvation then obeying the 10 commandments from the Old Testament (with a heavy emphasis on the 4th commandment) seals the deal? How do you define "believes in Him" in John 3:18? I witness many people trying to "shoe horn" works "into" believes in Him, then claim they don't teach works salvation. I gave you two examples of this in post #51.The verses refer to judgment based on what we do, not salvation. Jesus also said
Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” Mathew 19:16-17
The Bible is one fluid book, you can't stop at one verse because it's what you like and disregard the rest. Believing in Jesus is a first step. Jesus does not want us to be baby Christians forever, we should be growing in our faith which in turn gives better understanding of scripture.
I don't actually, but you keep disregarding scripture like it doesn't exist, which doesn't make it go away. What I was quoting came from the mouth of Jesus so you're not really disagreeing with my words.You seem to isolate and obsess over verses on "commandment keeping" as if we are saved by grace through commandment keeping instead of by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) So believing in Jesus is merely a "step" towards obtaining salvation then obeying the 10 commandments from the Old Testament (with a heavy emphasis on the 4th commandment) seals the deal? How do you define "believes in Him" in John 3:18? I witness many people trying to "shoe horn" works "into" believes in Him, then claim they don't teach works salvation. I gave you two examples of this in post #51.
Now Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping even the first commandment which is the first of the two great commandments. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37) The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms, yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing/trusting/relying in Jesus for salvation.
The rich young ruler remained unconvicted, missed the point that Jesus was making, and failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, but continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). He went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - "keep the commandments and you will be saved," but instead, Paul said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.."
Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the exact same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
*Do you define "keep" the commandments as "perfectly obey" all 10 commandments from the old covenant of law? So the new covenant to you is simply the 10 commandments (with all it's rules and regulations) from the old covenant re-packaged?
I noticed that you did not answers my questions at the bottom of post #55. I don't disagree with the words of Jesus and I'm careful to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. We can't simply isolate pet verses that fit pet doctrines and ignore the rest. Now what did Jesus say in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26?) Anything about salvation through obeying the 10 commandments there? If we could perfectly obey the 10 commandments then we would not need a Savior. (Romans 3:23; 6:23; Romans 3:24-28; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9 etc..).I don't actually, but you keep disregarding scripture like it doesn't exist, which doesn't make it go away. What I was quoting came from the mouth of Jesus so you're not really disagreeing with my words.
I did address this, believing is just the first step, but an important one. It's a baby Christian. We are supposed to grow in our faith. Jesus came to save us from sin, not give a license to sin. Jesus said if you love Me keep My commandments. Jesus even gives a Helper to obey, that's how much He wants us to not sin. John 14:15-18. What you seem to be suggesting is to disregard anything in the bible that's says "obey" "laws" "commandments" "Sabbath" which is a significant part of God's Word. In fact, the Bible ends with this:I noticed that you did not answers my questions at the bottom of post #55. I don't disagree with the words of Jesus and I'm careful to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. We can't simply isolate pet verses that fit pet doctrines and ignore the rest. Now what did Jesus say in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26?) Anything about salvation through obeying the 10 commandments there? If we could perfectly obey the 10 commandments then we would not need a Savior. (Romans 3:23; 6:23; Romans 3:24-28; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9 etc..).
So believing in Christ unto salvation (John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 16:31) is insufficient to save? I believe that Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)I did address this, believing is just the first step, but an important one.
Of course we are supposed to grow from baby Christians to mature Christians and some will grow faster than others.It's a baby Christian. We are supposed to grow in our faith.
Who said anything about a license to sin?Jesus came to save us from sin, not give a license to sin.
Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the new covenant. (Colossians 2:16-17)Jesus said if you love Me keep My commandments. Jesus even gives a Helper to obey, that's how much He wants us to not sin. John 14:15-18. What you seem to be suggesting is to disregard anything in the bible that's says "obey" "laws" "commandments" "Sabbath" which is a significant part of God's Word. In fact, the Bible ends with this:
Notice reward and work. Salvation is a gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) and not a reward. *Also see 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 in regards to rewards.Revelations 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Do or keep His commandments is descriptive of believers. (1 John 2:3) Revelation 22:15 is descriptive of unbelievers. Multiple translations in Revelation 22:14 read, "Blessed are those who wash their robes" - https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation 22:14 which symbolizes those who have been forgiven of their sins through the blood of the Lamb (Romans 3:24-26). *Also see Revelation 7:14.14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
Are you accusing me of adding or taking away from the words of the prophecy of that book?A Warning
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I Am Coming Quickly
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
So you think that's all we have to do is believe to be saved?So believing in Christ unto salvation (John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 16:31) is insufficient to save? I believe that Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)
Of course we are supposed to grow from baby Christians to mature Christians and some will grow faster than others.
Who said anything about a license to sin?
Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the new covenant. (Colossians 2:16-17) I don't disregard New Testament commands for Christians.
Notice reward and work. Salvation is a gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) and not a reward. *Also see 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 in regards to rewards.
Do or keep His commandments is descriptive of believers. (1 John 2:3) Revelation 22:15 is descriptive of unbelievers. Multiple translations in Revelation 22:14 read, "Blessed are those who wash their robes" - https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation 22:14 which symbolizes those who have been forgiven of their sins through the blood of the Lamb (Romans 3:24-26). *Also see Revelation 7:14.
Are you accusing me of adding or taking away from the words of the prophecy of that book?