Is faith a gift that only God can give us? (Note: I have an answer, but I would like input).

Is faith a gift that only God can give to us?


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HosannaHM

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This happens online sometimes where someone equates their interpretation of scripture is being equal with the word of God. Basically any interpretation other than theirs is ignorance, heresy, lies from the devil, calling God a liar etc.

Too true, brother. That's why I talked about authority a few posts back. That portion of the post was conveniently ignored by our highlighting-hero. Truth is I don't enjoy arguing, but some people will offend (whether they realize it or not in this case) by their conduct and then play the victim as if they are God's man. They will act like they are being persecuted for God's truth, when in reality they are just impolite.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Here's the thing for me personally when it comes to something like OSAS eternal security. If true, then my only reason for obeying and doing works, is strictly for God alone. If it has nothing to do with my salvation / saving myself, then it's all and only about pleasing God. Again, that's why I personally like that doctrine. I'm not sold on it, but that's what I like about it. So for some I suppose it could be a license to sin. But for me it's a license to stop thinking about what's in it for me, and to totally delight in what's in it for God.

If the speed limit on highways was still in effect, but there was no punishment for speeding on the highways, then what do you think more people would do? They will ignore the speed limit and drive as fast as they like or feel seeing only the speed limit as suggestive. The accident, and death rate on highways would increase because people would be driving more recklessly (if such were the case, though).

Now, suppose a person had a license to murder, cheat, sleep around, hurt others, etc.; It would speak badly of the character of God in regards to fair justice in that a believer would not be punished in the final end for being evil, and it would encourage others to do evil in God's name, and it would lead many to treat sin not as seriously because God would not treat it as seriously. I see Jesus warning us in how sin can destroy our souls in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:32-46, Luke 9:62, and how loving God and loving our neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). Even the apostle Paul says be not deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

So no. I don't see Eternal Security (Once Saved Always Saved), and the Non-OSAS Sin and Still Be Saved (Free Will Baptist) belief as being biblical, or good. God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4) or even as a safety net to sin the rest of this life. Grace is there to help to battle and fight against mortal sin so as to overcome it (See: 2 Corinthians 7:1, Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2). If not, then one is simply justifyin sin and or evil in God's name. One has given in to their old man when they should have put on the new man in Christ.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Too true, brother. That's why I talked about authority a few posts back. That portion of the post was conveniently ignored by our highlighting-hero. Truth is I don't enjoy arguing, but some people will offend (whether they realize it or not in this case) by their conduct and then play the victim as if they are God's man. They will act like they are being persecuted for God's truth, when in reality they are just impolite.

Wisdom is justified of her children (Matthew 11:19).
 
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HosannaHM

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Most of us have misunderstood things witin God's Word every now and then.

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?

I believe that when we mistunderstand God's Word, it is the enemy who has clouded our understanding on a particular part of what His Word says. This would not be the whole of the Word of God on all things (obviously). Many Christians accept those verses on the Trinity as one example. So this would be an example where the enemy has not stolen His word out of heart when it comes to those verses that talk about the Trinity.



You believe they are random bible verses that I have quoted to you, but they were not quoted without any thought or intent, my friend. For example: I did not quote Philippians 2:14 randomly.

“Do everything without complaining and arguing,” (Philippians 2:14).

It is random in the sense that you keep quoting them at me without acknowledging the point I'm trying to make with you. It is arrogant to tell me I'm arguing and complaining when we are both having a dispute. I guess it only takes one to argue, because you would probably classify your posts as reasoning from the scriptures. But when I do it- arguing and complaining. The double standard strikes again. And I'm doubling down on what I said earlier: I don't want Christians to come to this thread for wisdom and understanding because in reality, it looks like a bunch of brothers bickering over secondary issues.
 
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It is random in the sense that you keep quoting them at me without acknowledging the point I'm trying to make with you. It is arrogant to tell me I'm arguing and complaining when we are both having a dispute. I guess it only takes one to argue, because you would probably classify your posts as reasoning from the scriptures. But when I do it- arguing and complaining. The double standard strikes again. And I'm doubling down on what I said earlier: I don't want Christians to come to this thread for wisdom and understanding because in reality, it looks like a bunch of brothers bickering over secondary issues.

I always strive to make my discussion on the forum about the wrong belief and not the person. If a person starts to make it about me, I will mention something wrong once that they are doing by God's Word in the most non-offensive way and get back on track to discussing God's Word in light of wrong beliefs. But my focus here is that I am only offering God's Word to you. You want to make it about me instead of discussing God's Word in light of various beliefs in a personally non-condemning way. The topic of this thread is actually about whether or not faith is gifted to a person or not. I have been trying to steer that discussion back on it's tracks, but the thread topic keeps getting derailed. The thread topic is not about Bible Highlighter, but the thread topic is about faith and if it is gifted by God or not. A hatred towards a wrong belief does not mean I am attacking the individual. I am not interested in even doing that here. My goal is demolish arguments (2 Corinthians 10:5). This would be done with preaching the Word of God.

A person yelling at traffic to stop because the bridge is out up ahead on a foggy day may appear to be hateful or impolite, but they are actually yelling to save people's souls in love. My goal is to preach the Word all the more in love, and have less of me and more of Him in me by doing so.

We can agree to disagree on how you may see things, but God knows the truth of things and He will reveal all things. For if I felt I did any wrong towards my neighbor, I would apologize indeed. But standing up for the truth of God's Word is never wrong (in my book).

Peace be unto you in the Lord.
May God bless you (even if we disagree on God's Word).
 
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Yep. A friend of tax collectors and sinners! As opposed to the self-righteous Pharisees.

Jesus was not a friend of sinners (in the sense that they remained as sinners). Jesus called sinners to repentance. In Luke 13:3, Jeuss basically says to repent or perish. This does not make sense in Calvinism because the Elect cannot perish, and the Non-Elect cannot repent. Jesus also said to “sin no more” to two people (John 5:14) (John 8:11). Jesus warned how sin can destroy our souls (Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, and how loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). So no. Jesus was not making friends with those who refused to repent and they stayed in their sins. Jesus was only among sinners so as to evangelize them and reach them for the cause of God. A doctor heals those who are sick. The doctor does not tell them to remain in their sick state otherwise the doctor is not doing His job correctly.

As for the Pharisees: They ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, justice, faith, and mercy (See: Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42). Jesus said, “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20). Jesus was not talking about a belief alone in Him for salvation. The context is the sermon on the moutn (Which is full of righteous instruction in regards to being in God's kingdom).
 
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Ceallaigh

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If the speed limit on highways was still in effect, but there was no punishment for speeding on the highways, then what do you think more people would do? They will ignore the speed limit and drive as fast as they like or feel seeing only the speed limit as suggestive. The accident, and death rate on highways would increase because people would be driving more recklessly (if such were the case, though).

Now, suppose a person had a license to murder, cheat, sleep around, hurt others, etc.; It would speak badly of the character of God in regards to fair justice in that a believer would not be punished in the final end for being evil, and it would encourage others to do evil in God's name, and it would lead many to treat sin not as seriously because God would not treat it as seriously. I see Jesus warning us in how sin can destroy our souls in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:32-46, Luke 9:62, and how loving God and loving our neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). Even the apostle Paul says be not deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

So no. I don't see Eternal Security (Once Saved Always Saved), and the Non-OSAS Sin and Still Be Saved (Free Will Baptist) belief as being biblical, or good. God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4) or even as a safety net to sin the rest of this life. Grace is there to help to battle and fight against mortal sin so as to overcome it (See: 2 Corinthians 7:1, Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2). If not, then one is simply justifyin sin and or evil in God's name. One has given in to their old man when they should have put on the new man in Christ.

Relax. I was just demonstrating that people can have non-selfish reasons for liking a doctrine.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Too true, brother. That's why I talked about authority a few posts back. That portion of the post was conveniently ignored by our highlighting-hero. Truth is I don't enjoy arguing, but some people will offend (whether they realize it or not in this case) by their conduct and then play the victim as if they are God's man. They will act like they are being persecuted for God's truth, when in reality they are just impolite.

I have had to put people on ignore because I inevitably have to say things to them that I don't like having to say.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Right, and Jesus was hated for doing the same thing. Ever read John 8:31-59 lately? If not, I would encourage you to read it slowly and pay very close attention to what was being said.

The thing is Christians on this forum are not bothered by what Jesus had to say. Or what Paul wrote in his letters. Whereas quite a few have been bothered by the way you talk to them. I'd say to work on that, rather than come up with reasons to stick with it.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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It is random in the sense that you keep quoting them at me without acknowledging the point I'm trying to make with you. It is arrogant to tell me I'm arguing and complaining when we are both having a dispute. I guess it only takes one to argue, because you would probably classify your posts as reasoning from the scriptures. But when I do it- arguing and complaining. The double standard strikes again. And I'm doubling down on what I said earlier: I don't want Christians to come to this thread for wisdom and understanding because in reality, it looks like a bunch of brothers bickering over secondary issues.

God and everyone else in this thread can see who started the personal arguments, brother. But again, this is not the discussion of this thread. This thread discussion is not about Bible Highlighter or you personally. This thread is about the topic of whether or not faith is gifted. I will allow for slight off topic discussion on the unbiblical teaching on sin and salvation as taught by the church today because it is tied to the problem of the belief that teaches faith is gifted (in that both beliefs teach a lack of responsibility or accountability towards God). But this thread topic is not about you or me personally. I was never interested in making it personal. If you feel I have instigated (or initiated) a personal argument, then please provide the post # within this thread, and if I feel it is fair and just that I am to blame for the striking of the match that started the fire of the personal argument, I will apologize. For my goal is to not make it personal with anyone but to discuss God's Word in light of wrong beliefs.

Anyways, peace, and blessings be unto you and your familly in the Lord.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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The thing is Christians on this forum are not bothered by what Jesus had to say. Or what Paul wrote in his letters. Whereas quite a few have been bothered by the way you talk to them. I'd say to work on that, rather than come up with reasons to stick with it.

I beg to differ. Many Christians I have encountered may not come right out and say openly they have a problem with the words of Jesus and His followers, but their denial of His words being in effect for today like Mid Acts Dispensationalists (or others saying that Jesus did not really mean what He said plainly) is the same equivalent. This is why I fear for my fellow brethren who do not see what I see on this very important issue.

For example: When I tell Christians about Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 7:26-27, Matthew 13:41-42, etc. in how He warned against how sin or disobedience can destroy our souls, many Christians will tell me that Jesus did not really mean what we think He said plainly or His words in the gospels no longer apply anymore. The same is true with verses like 1 Timothy 6:12. They cannot be believed at face value because of what they have been taught by their Pastor or church or by a belief they heard on the internet that sounds more comforting to them. But I just read my Bible, and believe it at face value even if it is not something I like always. For we must all strive to accept the whole counsel of God's Word. For it is my prayer that God always keeps my eyes open and fresh when I look at His Word and show me those things that may be hidden from my sight. We must have this same kind of mind, my brethren. We must not make room for mortal sin to make it's way into our lives in any way. For we are told to be not deceived on the matter in that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

We are told to strive to enter in at the straight gate (Luke 13:24).
Are we striving, my brethren to enter the straight gate? I sure hope so because they are words from our Lord.
 
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To all:

“Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.” (1 Thessalonians 5:5-8).

“The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.” (Romans 13:12-14).
 
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zoidar

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For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
(Ephesians 2:8-9, NKJV)

Faith is God's gift to us. Ephesians 2:8.

-CryptoLutheran

Is faith the gift refered to, or is salvation the gift refered to? I have always taken it that faith is the gift, but when I read it today I realized that it must be salvation that is the gift, not faith in particular. What do you think?
 
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Ceallaigh

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I beg to differ. Many Christians I have encountered may not come right out and say openly they have a problem with the words of Jesus and His followers, but their denial of His words being in effect for today like Mid Acts Dispensationalists (or others saying that Jesus did not really mean what He said plainly) is the same equivalent. This is why I fear for my fellow brethren who do not see what I see on this very important issue.

For example: When I tell Christians about Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 7:26-27, Matthew 13:41-42, etc. in how He warned against how sin or disobedience can destroy our souls, many Christians will tell me that Jesus did not really mean what we think He said plainly or His words in the gospels no longer apply anymore. The same is true with verses like 1 Timothy 6:12. They cannot be believed at face value because of what they have been taught by their Pastor or church or by a belief they heard on the internet that sounds more comforting to them. But I just read my Bible, and believe it at face value even if it is not something I like always. For we must all strive to accept the whole counsel of God's Word. For it is my prayer that God always keeps my eyes open and fresh when I look at His Word and show me those things that may be hidden from my sight. We must have this same kind of mind, my brethren. We must not make room for mortal sin to make it's way into our lives in any way. For we are told to be not deceived on the matter in that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

They're not disagreeing with Jesus, they're disagreeing with you. The problem is with your demeanor. You are talking to your peers. Your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. You are not Jesus talking to children of the devil (John 8:44) which is apparently what you equate them with considering you wrote:

Right, and Jesus was hated for doing the same thing. Ever read John 8:31-59 lately? If not, I would encourage you to read it slowly and pay very close attention to what was being said.

I'd suggest getting off the high horse you appear to be on. Unless you enjoy lots of needless bickering. But I doubt I'm saying anything that hasn't been said already. So I'm going to take my leave of it.
 
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Is faith the gift refered to, or is salvation the gift refered to? I have always taken it that faith is the gift, but when I read it today I realized that it must be salvation that is the gift, not faith in particular.

Salvation, as an object, is not mentioned in Ephesians 2:8. It is a verb, God is saving us, "by grace you have been saved" refers to an action. An action caused by grace. An action caused by grace through faith.

Grammatically, in the originally Greek text, "by grace you have been saved through faith" is the "gift of God". The entire clause is attributed to God, as something God does and gives. Which is why it is "not of yourselves". We didn't do it. We didn't make anything happen. We received something. That something is God saving us by His grace through faith. Faith is, therefore, the gift of God.

That faith is the gift of Ephesians 2:8 has always been how Christians have read the text. That does not exclude salvation from being God's gift, but the text is clearly attributing salvation as a work of God. And God's way of saving us is by His grace through faith, a faith which comes from God and is not of ourselves.

Otherwise Ephesians 2:9, "not by works, so that no one may boast", would make no sense. If we bring faith, then we bring our work; if faith is one of our works then it is no longer "not by works" and "not of yourselves", it is no longer "the gift of God"; and there is, in fact, room for one to boast. For one may then boast in himself of his faith.

But Paul makes it abundantly clear, there is no room for boasting, not even when it comes to faith. Even faith is the gift of God, granted to our hearts by the Holy Spirit through the power of God's own word (Romans 10:17).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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zoidar

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Salvation, as an object, is not mentioned in Ephesians 2:8. It is a verb, God is saving us, "by grace you have been saved" refers to an action. An action caused by grace. An action caused by grace through faith.

Grammatically, in the originally Greek text, "by grace you have been saved through faith" is the "gift of God". The entire clause is attributed to God, as something God does and gives. Which is why it is "not of yourselves". We didn't do it. We didn't make anything happen. We received something. That something is God saving us by His grace through faith. Faith is, therefore, the gift of God.

That faith is the gift of Ephesians 2:8 has always been how Christians have read the text. That does not exclude salvation from being God's gift, but the text is clearly attributing salvation as a work of God. And God's way of saving us is by His grace through faith, a faith which comes from God and is not of ourselves.

Otherwise Ephesians 2:9, "not by works, so that no one may boast", would make no sense. If we bring faith, then we bring our work; if faith is one of our works then it is no longer "not by works" and "not of yourselves", it is no longer "the gift of God"; and there is, in fact, room for one to boast. For one may then boast in himself of his faith.

But Paul makes it abundantly clear, there is no room for boasting, not even when it comes to faith. Even faith is the gift of God, granted to our hearts by the Holy Spirit through the power of God's own word (Romans 10:17).

-CryptoLutheran

But look at this:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, faith is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
— Ephesians 2:8-9

Or:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves,
salvation is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
— Ephesians 2:8-9

Can it really be saying that faith is not by works?

I don't know how Christians have read the text in the past? Do you got some early Christians to refer to?
 
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HosannaHM

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God and everyone else in this thread can see who started the personal arguments, brother. But again, this is not the discussion of this thread. This thread discussion is not about Bible Highlighter or you personally. This thread is about the topic of whether or not faith is gifted. I will allow for slight off topic discussion on the unbiblical teaching on sin and salvation as taught by the church today because it is tied to the problem of the belief that teaches faith is gifted (in that both beliefs teach a lack of responsibility or accountability towards God). But this thread topic is not about you or me personally. I was never interested in making it personal. If you feel I have instigated (or initiated) a personal argument, then please provide the post # within this thread, and if I feel it is fair and just that I am to blame for the striking of the match that started the fire of the personal argument, I will apologize. For my goal is to not make it personal with anyone but to discuss God's Word in light of wrong beliefs.

Anyways, peace, and blessings be unto you and your familly in the Lord.

Alright. I'm gonna let you get back to arguing with people about soteriology. I was simply trying to help you understand why you aren't getting anywhere with anyone. Maybe I'm wrong, God knows. I believe the plain reading of the text "how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity" is applicable. Talking about demeanor is inevitable whenever mutual respect is absent. The Lord knows I was trying to help, not hinder. I'll be on my way.

Grace to you. We'll all be casting the crowns we've clutched at Jesus' feet.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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But look at this:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, faith is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
— Ephesians 2:8-9

Or:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves,
salvation is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
— Ephesians 2:8-9

Can it really be saying that faith is not by works?

I don't know how Christians have read the text in the past? Do you got some early Christians to refer to?

I believe it is God's grace that is being referred to here as the gift because God so loved the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son.... (John 3:16). Jesus is the gift. Jesus is the source of a person's eternal life (1 John 5:12, John 17:3). Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). The Word of God are the words of Jesus.

Remember, in the “Parable of the Sower” these truths:

#1. In the Parable of the Weeds (that relates to the Parable of the Sower), we learn that He that sows the good seed is the Son of man (Jesus) (Matthew 13:37).

#2. The seed is the word of God, i.e. the gospel message from the Scriptures (Luke 8:11) (For we are born of incorruptible seed, which is the word of God that endures forever, see: 1 Peter 1:23-25; Also the words of Jesus are spiritual and they are life - John 6:63). We must not only accept the gospel, but we also must accept the CALL OF THE GOSPEL in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. This call of the gospel is... God has chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. This sanctification of the Spirit is holy living based on verse 12, and verses 16-17 in the same chapter. IN short, we have to obey the Lord as a part of the faith. The faith are the words of God (from Jesus and His apostles) that we hear and obey.

#3. Only those individuals who are labeled as: "The seed by the way side" are those who when they have heard the word, Satan came immediately, and took away the word that was sown in their hearts. (Mark 4:15). This is not said of the other seeds who fell away.

#4. The alternative to the "seed by way side" to be saved is if they "believe" in order to be saved (Luke 8:12). For Luke 8:12 says, "lest they should believe and be saved."
 
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zoidar

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I believe it is God's grace that is being referred to here as the gift because God so loved the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son.... (John 3:16). Jesus is the gift. Jesus is the source of a person's eternal life (1 John 5:12, John 17:3). Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). The Word of God are the words of Jesus.

Remember, in the “Parable of the Sower” these truths:

#1. In the Parable of the Weeds (that relates to the Parable of the Sower), we learn that He that sows the good seed is the Son of man (Jesus) (Matthew 13:37).

#2. The seed is the word of God, i.e. the gospel message from the Scriptures (Luke 8:11) (For we are born of incorruptible seed, which is the word of God that endures forever, see: 1 Peter 1:23-25; Also the words of Jesus are spiritual and they are life - John 6:63). We must not only accept the gospel, but we also must accept the CALL OF THE GOSPEL in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. This call of the gospel is... God has chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. This sanctification of the Spirit is holy living based on verse 12, and verses 16-17 in the same chapter. IN short, we have to obey the Lord as a part of the faith. The faith are the words of God (from Jesus and His apostles) that we hear and obey.

#3. Only those individuals who are labeled as: "The seed by the way side" are those who when they have heard the word, Satan came immediately, and took away the word that was sown in their hearts. (Mark 4:15). This is not said of the other seeds who fell away.

#4. The alternative to the "seed by way side" to be saved is if they "believe" in order to be saved (Luke 8:12). For Luke 8:12 says, "lest they should believe and be saved."

Yeah, possibly it can be refering to grace... :scratch:
 
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