What is the reformed doctrine of regeneration?

dms1972 said:

I admit to be somewhat confused about the whole matter of "born again" - I have read a few different views on it - and wanted to ask if this view (from Leanne Payne's book The Healing Presence) is in harmony with reformed theology:

"Christ in us and we in Him: this is the concrete reality. God was incarnate of the virgin Mary by the Spirit of Christ; man is indwelt, in-gifted, in-graced, in-godded. This is why our ecleticism (so prevalent in the Church today, as many non-christian ideas flood in) will not work. Herein is the (dreadful to some) exclusiveness of the Christian truth and reality that we are to proclaim. There is no possibility for eclecticism in it. In the Presence, unless they will to remain separate, men are born anew. Moslems, Hindus, Hebrews who walk into the Presence and power of the Holy Spirit are quickly remade. They become Christians."
​

Its the phrase "...unless they will to remain separate..." is that compatible with monergistic regeneration?

Another related question : what is the teaching about perfect passivity - is that Reformed or Lutheran

Some people say when Jesus says "ye must be born again" he is telling us to do something?

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The reformed believe that regeneration is when God changes a persons heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26). In other words we believe that God changes the heart of an individual from one who cannot accept the gospel (or God) because they cannot (Romans 8:7), to one who can accept the gospel. For more information on this lookup the doctrine of Total Depravity.

After this person asks Jesus to come into their hearts, he goes to live with them and salvation occurs. We believe that a person is born again BEFORE they accept the gospel while many other Christians believe that it is after.

Yes, our beliefs are in tune with monoergistic regeneration because like I said, we believe salvation to be the work of God and work of God alone. Its just that we take it a step further and say that God does ALL of the work of salvation including an individuals acceptance of the gospel are all works of God. God before time began, chose those who would obtain salvation and he will not lose or ever forget about any of them.

I am not familiar with perfect passivity can you explain it further?

When Jesus said "you must be born again" he was trying to tell Nicodemus that while in our flesh we will never or can never accept God or get into heaven. For salvation to occur an individual must be regenerated to accept the things of God and to want the things of God. And their sin nature has to be taken care of.

While we have a sin nature until we die, after death we will no longer have a sin nature if we have the Holy Spirit living within us and our lives are spent with God slowly sanctifying us and getting us ready for meeting him face to face.

If we're still in our sins, we cannot be with God because one cannot be sinful and be in the presence of God. He detests sin.

I hope I answered all your questions.

Hello @dms1972, Calvinists teach that God quickens or regenerates us to (spiritual) life. This is what we believe being "born again" or "born from above" is referring to .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; Ephesians 2:1-5.

Conversely, it might be asked, if being "born again" is required to even see/perceive God and His Kingdom, then how could anyone come to saving faith unless God has already caused them to be "born again" (unless He has already quickened/regenerated their hearts) since they would still be in this (unregenerate) state .. 1 Corinthians 2:14 and incapable of understanding and/or accepting Him or spiritual truth from Him because they are?

This is why we teach that regeneration precedes faith.

God bless you!

--David

dms1972 said:

I admit to be somewhat confused about the whole matter of "born again" - I have read a few different views on it - and wanted to ask if this view (from Leanne Payne's book The Healing Presence) is in harmony with reformed theology:

"Christ in us and we in Him: this is the concrete reality. God was incarnate of the virgin Mary by the Spirit of Christ; man is indwelt, in-gifted, in-graced, in-godded. This is why our ecleticism (so prevalent in the Church today, as many non-christian ideas flood in) will not work. Herein is the (dreadful to some) exclusiveness of the Christian truth and reality that we are to proclaim. There is no possibility for eclecticism in it. In the Presence, unless they will to remain separate, men are born anew. Moslems, Hindus, Hebrews who walk into the Presence and power of the Holy Spirit are quickly remade. They become Christians."
​

Its the phrase "...unless they will to remain separate..." is that compatible with monergistic regeneration?

Another related question : what is the teaching about perfect passivity - is that Reformed or Lutheran

Some people say when Jesus says "ye must be born again" he is telling us to do something?

Click to expand...

Regeneration, though may not be a reformed position, is the Holy Spirit dwelling in the beliver. Once lost through Adam, Jesus Christ of Nazareth made it possible once again to enter The Kingdom of God. Blessings.

Hello @Maria Billingsley, you are correct, that is not a Reformed position (which are the only "positions" which are supposed to be taught on this particular board ), but I'm interested because I've never heard of it before (from Protestants, Catholics or Orthodox), so I'd like to know where/who you got that teaching from, the idea that the HS indwelling the believer = regeneration (and where that idea is taught in the Bible as well).

Thanks

--David
p.s. - do you believe that our first parents were indwelt by the HS in the Garden of God prior to their disobedience and fall into sin? Thanks again.

St_Worm2 said:

Hello @Maria Billingsley, you are correct, that is not a Reformed position (which are the only "positions" which are supposed to be taught on this particular board ), but I'm interested because I've never heard of it before (from Protestants, Catholics or Orthodox), so I'd like to know where/who you got that teaching from, the idea that the HS indwelling the believer = regeneration (and where that idea is taught in the Bible as well).

Thanks

--David
p.s. - do you believe that our first parents were indwelt by the HS in the Garden of God prior to their disobedience and fall into sin? Thanks again.

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The verse you used in your post, #3 Ezekiel 36:26-27, is the Holy Spirit at work within the believer aka, regeneration.
Yes, God walked with Adam and Eve before the fall.

St_Worm2 said:

Hello @Maria Billingsley, you are correct, that is not a Reformed position (which are the only "positions" which are supposed to be taught on this particular board ), but I'm interested because I've never heard of it before (from Protestants, Catholics or Orthodox), so I'd like to know where/who you got that teaching from, the idea that the HS indwelling the believer = regeneration (and where that idea is taught in the Bible as well).

Thanks

--David
p.s. - do you believe that our first parents were indwelt by the HS in the Garden of God prior to their disobedience and fall into sin? Thanks again.

Click to expand...

Cont...
Titus 3
. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

dms1972 said:

virgin Mary by the Spirit of Christ; man is indwelt, in-gifted, in-graced

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Here is the first issue with this statement. Man in general is not indwelt with the Holy Ghost. Only (it seems) post-Pentecost elect are "indwelt".

Being "indwelt" by the Spirit of God though should not be confused with being atoned for. There were plenty of people pre-Pentecost who were atoned for, but not indwelt as post-Pentecost believers are.

Also, being indwelt should not be confused with the Holy Spirit's authority / ability to "direct" / "influence" someone. "The heart of the king is in the hand of God." God can and does direct the affairs of men; even those who never become redeemed. By the nature of being God; He has the ability and authority to do that to the accomplishment of His own will.

dms1972 said:

unless they will to remain separate, men are born anew.

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Again, this is a contradiction in terms. If we believe what the Scripture says about God being sovereign; we have to conclude that those who are born anew do not will to remain separate from God. Aligning of the will of the individual to the will of God is part of both the regeneration process as well as the sanctification process.

dms1972 said:

what is the teaching about perfect passivity - is that Reformed or Lutheran

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Luther is the one who coined this phrase; but I suppose depending on how one interprets what he said; it could be a "reformed doctrine".

According to Luther; it meant "to be put to death as a sinner and raised as a saint". And to that explanation; that is a "passive" process as the Holy Ghost works in a person. God makes the elect willing to be renewed. And to my understanding of Biblical doctrine; that "passivity" is "perfect" because it does produce sanctification and not a fatalistic lack of desire (action) for believers to see God's working in their lives.

The "passivity" of sanctification in deed does "do" something.

dms1972 said:

Some people say when Jesus says "ye must be born again" he is telling us to do something?

Click to expand...

I think when Jesus said to Nicodemus "you must be born again" that was a factual statement of happening in the life of someone who does indeed become redeemed. Being "born again" is the evidence of the working of the Holy Spirit; not the prerequisite to His action.

dms1972 said:

I admit to be somewhat confused about the whole matter of "born again" - I have read a few different views on it - and wanted to ask if this view (from Leanne Payne's book The Healing Presence) is in harmony with reformed theology:

"Christ in us and we in Him: this is the concrete reality. God was incarnate of the virgin Mary by the Spirit of Christ; man is indwelt, in-gifted, in-graced, in-godded. This is why our ecleticism (so prevalent in the Church today, as many non-christian ideas flood in) will not work. Herein is the (dreadful to some) exclusiveness of the Christian truth and reality that we are to proclaim. There is no possibility for eclecticism in it. In the Presence, unless they will to remain separate, men are born anew. Moslems, Hindus, Hebrews who walk into the Presence and power of the Holy Spirit are quickly remade. They become Christians."
​

Its the phrase "...unless they will to remain separate..." is that compatible with monergistic regeneration?

Another related question : what is the teaching about perfect passivity - is that Reformed or Lutheran

Some people say when Jesus says "ye must be born again" he is telling us to do something?

Click to expand...

Calvin held that repentance is regeneration:

"I interpret repentance as regeneration, whose sole end is to restore in us the image of God" (ICR III.III.9).

For Calvin, the mark of repentance (regeneration) is a continual process of the mortification of the flesh and vivification of the spirit/Spirit. In other words to die and be raised with Christ. It is an intentional, consistent self-denial, such that "this warfare will end only at death" (ibid.).

dms1972 said:

Thanks. I think Calvin understands two senses of regeneration - a broad sense continuing throughout one's life, and a narrow sense. He seems to refering to regeneration in the broader sense here.

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I would be interested in seeing a source for that narrow sense. He definitely pushes back against any sort of experience that results in Christian perfection.

dms1972 said:

What I want to understand is whether there is something that happens to some persons (ie. they made spiritually alive) completely apart from anything they do preceding it.....

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Hello again dms1972, I think that there is no question about that, that God, in regard to those who are outside of Christ & "dead" in their trespasses and sins, chooses to act apart from anything that they do in bringing them to saving faith (as ~dead~ people are incapable of doing, well, anything, yes)?

Calvinism and Arminianism both speak of a type of grace that comes before, an "enabling" grace from God. One is called irresistible or effectual grace (Calvinism), and the other, prevenient grace (Arminianism). The scope & the effect of these two types of enabling grace are different, but both sides believe that God must act before anyone can/will come to saving faith and believe. (Oh, and Romans Catholic believe that God's enabling grace is conferred in the waters of baptism)

As the Apostle tells us plainly,

Likewise, here is St. Paul's description of a "natural" man/woman. He tells us that a person in this state cannot understand or accept the spiritual things of God (as anything other than foolishness, that is). Such a person will never choose to come to saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (unless God makes it possible for them, that is, by enabling them to believe .. or, as the Lord Jesus puts it, by His Father "drawing" them).

--David

Hello again @dms1972, it may be helpful to understand that John 6:44 correctly refers to God's irresistible call a "drawing" (not a "dragging"), because that's exactly what it is (and what it seems like from our POV). It's Him (His patience/kindness/love) that draws us to Him/that we find to be irresistible cf Romans 2:4. IOW, He never has to tie us up and drag us to saving faith, kicking and screaming all the way because we don't want to come, because we (at least eventually) will ~want~ to come

The Apostle Peter wrote his 2nd Epistle to and about God's elect, the saints (and His 'saints to be', of course). Here's a verse that most outside of the Reformed camp take as a general statement to all (saints and reprobate), but that would make it the only such statement in that entire Epistle.

Rather, I believe v9 was written to and about the saints/saints to be alone because God is long-suffering towards us/waits patiently for ALL of us (who He knows will eventually come to saving faith in Jesus), NOT for those who He already knows never will

Here's the verse.

God is love (and the first two/principle ingredients in agape are, patience and kindness .. 1 Corinthians 13:4)
--David

dms1972 said:

What I want to understand is whether there is something that happens to some persons (ie. they made spiritually alive) completely apart from anything they do preceding it and which they cannot prevent happening? Or is that hyper-calvinism?

I read of one person who said he was born again while crossing the road! He had thought he was self-sufficient and came to see he wasn't.

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I've had several "inklings" / "events" of "coming to life" long before I knew what was happening, which were certainly outside of anything I did with an intention of "wanting" spiritual life.

And I would describe those "inklings" as an awareness. It's an awareness that something is beyond the here and now. It's like unto the idea of walking around in a dark house tripping over the furniture and suddenly someone "cuts the lights on" and all the sudden you can "see" around you. You are now aware.

The first time this happened to me, I was maybe 6 or 7 yard old. My mother had sent us at various ages to the local church to "get confirmed". (Which I thought was kind of odd because we never went to church.)

Well, this instance happened at my older siblings' confirmation. The only thing I remember was the preacher saying "Let us pray" and I "bowed my head" (looked down at my shoes like everyone around me appeared to be doing); and I said: Well.... God.. eh, I don't know what to say because I've never done this before. And suddenly I was aware that something existed beyond what I could see. I didn't know what it was and I wasn't even sure I was "happy" about this awareness. I felt like a speck of dust in a vast cosmos that how would anyone even know I was here? I was aware "something" was "out there"; but I had no idea what it was, whether "it" cared, or even to a certain extent if this "experience" was a figment of my imagination; but something changed.

Following that incident, several other similar incidents continued to happen. By the point I got into latter high school; I'd concluded that this awareness had something to do with God. And on the heels of that conclusion; I'd come to the realization that I was actually alive. Being alive meant something. Granted, I still didn't know who or what God was; but the awareness that He existed was very real.

But it wasn't until I'd actually started reading the Bible that I could put a name to God. Yet even at that I wasn't reading the Bible because I "wanted to be born again". I was reading it because something in me wanted to understand this.

So yes, I believe I'd had a spiritual awakening before I really knew or understood who or what Jesus was. I'd been "born again" even though I didn't know that yet.

dms1972 said:

I admit to be somewhat confused about the whole matter of "born again" - I have read a few different views on it - and wanted to ask if this view (from Leanne Payne's book The Healing Presence) is in harmony with reformed theology:

"Christ in us and we in Him: this is the concrete reality. God was incarnate of the virgin Mary by the Spirit of Christ; man is indwelt, in-gifted, in-graced, in-godded. This is why our ecleticism (so prevalent in the Church today, as many non-christian ideas flood in) will not work. Herein is the (dreadful to some) exclusiveness of the Christian truth and reality that we are to proclaim. There is no possibility for eclecticism in it.​

Click to expand...

Its the phrase "...unless they will to remain separate..." is that compatible with monergistic regeneration?

Another related question : what is the teaching about perfect passivity - is that Reformed or Lutheran

Some people say when Jesus says "ye must be born again" he is telling us to do something?

Click to expand...

What is this Presence which men walk into?