What do you think about the sacraments?

The Liturgist

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Is that correct? Certainly I have known Catholic priests to do so. Are they technically in breach of canon law when doing so?

Yet I was reading those who were demanding the Eucharist be withheld from President Biden on the issue of abortion legislation.

I’ve heard of priests getting chewed out for threatening to deny communion to political figures like Biden, so based on that and everything I know about Roman Catholic canon law, I am going to say “yes, they are in breach - provided the person seeking communion identified as a member of a church the Roman Catholic Church does not offer the sacraments to.”

So if you’re not Eastern or Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian or a member of the Polish National Catholic Church (I think), and you tell them that, my understanding is they could exclude you from the sacrament.

Fun fact: non-Catholics and others seeking a blessing from the priest but not the Eucharist will cross their arms over their shoulders; conversely, assuming this posture prior to receiving the Eucharist is an ancient Orthodox tradition making a comeback in some ROCOR churches, including the local one. This caused me some confusion when I visited that parish.
 
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zippy2006

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Actually there are some sins that are result in excommunication
Latae sententiae such as physically attacking the Pope, committing an abortion either as the mother or the abortionist (except for health reasons like an ectopic pregnancy I would assume), and throwing away a consecrated Host or stealing one for illicit purposes (Satanists and militant atheists like to sacrilegious abuse the body of Christ in the form of unleavened wafers that are used in the Western Rites of the Roman Catholic Church and some other denominations), among other things. These excommunications require absolution from the Pope, who delegates this authority to the Apostolic Penitentiary. The confessor and the Apostolic Penitentiary refer to the excommunicated penitent by a psuedonym in order to protect his or her privacy and the seal of the confessional.

Yes, that's a good point. The reason the priests were not allowed to absolve abortion is because of the legal status of the penitent.

Is that correct? Certainly I have known Catholic priests to do so. Are they technically in breach of canon law when doing so?

No, I do not believe that is correct. The distinction here is between public and private grave sin. The Liturgist is correct with respect to private grave sin. If a priest knows that someone has committed a grave sin but that sin remains private, he cannot refuse communion. With public grave sin it gets trickier.

That said, Biden's situation isn't tricky from a canonical perspective. Priests are canonically justified in denying Biden communion, and they have done so without incident. That doesn't mean that it is always prudent to do so, or that their bishop will not be irked by it. In some cases it may even be against the bishop's wishes, in which case they would be disobeying a superior, but not transgressing canon law.

This came up some dozen years ago with John Kerry. See this directive, especially #5 and #6: Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion: General Principles | EWTN
 
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CleanSoul

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They're unable to absolve the sin of abortion

No. In 2016, pope Francis gave authority to all catholic priests to absolve the sin of abortion.

able to absolve the sins of pedophilia and murder!

I don't think you understand that confession is a sacrament, at least in the Catholic faith. The penitent is first and foremost confessing to God. So, what people are doing is trying to tell God what he can, and cannot forgive.

Also, how many attorneys know their client actually did do the very thing which they are defending them, yet, they do not have follow a directive requiring them to turn them in to authorities?
 
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Andrewn

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No. In 2016, pope Francis gave authority to all catholic priests to absolve the sin of abortion.
Good. Then we can start to talk in a way that makes sense.

I don't think you understand that confession is a sacrament, at least in the Catholic faith. The penitent is first and foremost confessing to God. So, what people are doing is trying to tell God what he can, and cannot forgive.
God forgives repentant sinners. In cases of pedophilia there are psychological issues and sexual inclinations that may make a change of behavior difficult and help far beyond the capacity and the time-limits of a confessions is required. Thus referral to someone authorized by the bishop as @Paidiske suggested is reasonable.

Also, how many attorneys know their client actually did do the very thing which they are defending them, yet, they do not have follow a directive requiring them to turn them in to authorities?
It seems that is the logic the Catholic Church used. But pedophilia is a crime with victims who suffer for the rest of their lives. Church cannot ignore the psychological and spiritual wellbeing of the victims to cover for priests. Victims, and their families, should logically be included in the proceedings. And moving the offender to an unsuspecting parish to continue to offend is sharing the blame with him.

The church is not a lawyer for the defendant, it's representing Christ judge for the weak.
 
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Mary of Bethany

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Thanks to @HTacianas , @tampasteve , @Anthony2019 , @ViaCrucis , @Paidiske , @The Liturgist , and @MarkRohfrietsch for explaining the purpose of individual confession to a pastor.

All, more or less, agree with the statement "all may, some should, none must".

This is with the exception of @HTacianas who wrote, "it is a pre-requisite to the Eucharist." This may theoretically, and historically, be the case in EO, OO & RC churches. But is it really a common practice to deny communion to people who had not confessed to the pastor?

As far as I know, at least in the U.S., only the ROCOR parishes (Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia) require confession before every Communion. My own jurisdiction asks people to confess every month or so, and other jurisdictions just say “at least X times per year. But neither are there “confession police” watching for people who haven’t confessed. . Priests generally know their flock well enough to know if someone needs help/encouragement/counseling in that way. And that is between them and their priest.
 
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The Liturgist

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As far as I know, at least in the U.S., only the ROCOR parishes (Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia) require confession before every Communion. My own jurisdiction asks people to confess every month or so, and other jurisdictions just say “at least X times per year. But neither are there “confession police” watching for people who haven’t confessed. . Priests generally know their flock well enough to know if someone needs help/encouragement/counseling in that way. And that is between them and their priest.

ROCOR parishes do not require confession before any communion. The local parish wants members to confess every four weeks. Many OCA parishes are the same, as are Romanian and Moscow Patriarchate parishes (there are about 40 or so remnants from the 75 MP parishes).
 
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Jonaitis

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Do you like them, do you oppose them? Share your opinion.

I don't think any Christian would be opposed to baptism and the Lord's Table. They were instituted by the Lord and ought to be practiced in all the churches. Anyone found in opposition against the sacraments are in opposition with God.
 
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Not David

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I don't think any Christian would be opposed to baptism and the Lord's Table. They were instituted by the Lord and ought to be practiced in all the churches. Anyone found in opposition against the sacraments are in opposition with God.
Look who is back!
I believe the Salvation Army avoid doing the two of them.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't think any Christian would be opposed to baptism and the Lord's Table. They were instituted by the Lord and ought to be practiced in all the churches. Anyone found in opposition against the sacraments are in opposition with God.

For some reason the Salvation Army does not observe these sacraments, which is sad, and also makes no sense to me, because as a movement, it was initially formed by Methodists, and John Wesley was a fervent believer in frequent Holy Communion. It also saddens me, because in the late 19th century the two groups who did the most for the desperately poor of the South of London, living under Dickensenian conditions, were the Salvation Army and also the Anglo-Catholic/Tractarian* movement in the Church of England.

*Anglo Catholics are very high church Anglicans. Unlike the Salvation Army, which benefitted from laws which ended the state persecution of “Non-Conformist” churches like the Congregationalists, Presbyterians and so on, and the Roman Catholics, who benefitted from a repeal of the penal laws, the Anglo Catholic missionaries in South London were actually persecuted for, of all things, wearing chasubles and using incense during Holy Communion, practices which are now extremely common in Anglicanism.
 
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Philip_B

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For some reason the Salvation Army does not observe these sacraments, which is sad, and also makes no sense to me, because as a movement, it was initially formed by Methodists, and John Wesley was a fervent believer in frequent Holy Communion. It also saddens me, because in the late 19th century the two groups who did the most for the desperately poor of the South of London, living under Dickensenian conditions, were the Salvation Army and also the Anglo-Catholic/Tractarian* movement in the Church of England.

*Anglo Catholics are very high church Anglicans. Unlike the Salvation Army, which benefitted from laws which ended the state persecution of “Non-Conformist” churches like the Congregationalists, Presbyterians and so on, and the Roman Catholics, who benefitted from a repeal of the penal laws, the Anglo Catholic missionaries in South London were actually persecuted for, of all things, wearing chasubles and using incense during Holy Communion, practices which are now extremely common in Anglicanism.
My feeling is that at its base the Salvation Army was started with the intent of proclaiming, and not for taking away from the Church. The members of the Salvation Army would attend their own Church as occasion presented for the Sacraments.
 
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Jonaitis

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For some reason the Salvation Army does not observe these sacraments, which is sad, and also makes no sense to me, because as a movement, it was initially formed by Methodists, and John Wesley was a fervent believer in frequent Holy Communion. It also saddens me, because in the late 19th century the two groups who did the most for the desperately poor of the South of London, living under Dickensenian conditions, were the Salvation Army and also the Anglo-Catholic/Tractarian* movement in the Church of England.

*Anglo Catholics are very high church Anglicans. Unlike the Salvation Army, which benefitted from laws which ended the state persecution of “Non-Conformist” churches like the Congregationalists, Presbyterians and so on, and the Roman Catholics, who benefitted from a repeal of the penal laws, the Anglo Catholic missionaries in South London were actually persecuted for, of all things, wearing chasubles and using incense during Holy Communion, practices which are now extremely common in Anglicanism.

In better understanding their reasoning, they find them "non-essential" to Christian practice since they see no salvific bearing upon or benefit through them. They aren't necessarily opposed to them when fellowshipping with other churches, from what I read. If the elements of worship isn't instituted within a body, I cannot call them a "church" in the proper sense. But, this is the consequence of their view of the sacraments. They may as well just be an organization without calling themselves anything more. They have benefitted a lot of people, and it is sad, but this is an area of err that runs deeper in their theology.
 
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The Liturgist

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My feeling is that at its base the Salvation Army was started with the intent of proclaiming, and not for taking away from the Church. The members of the Salvation Army would attend their own Church as occasion presented for the Sacraments.

This may be so, but at present the Salvation Army is a full-fledged denomination with its own clergy (who are commissioned officers) and laity (who are enlisted soldiers) and its own church services. I don’t understand why they felt the need to create new rites of enlistment and the commissioning of officers based on military ritual, instead of using the ancient liturgical sacraments always observed by the Church of England and the Methodists. I don’t understand why they don’t just coordinate the ecclesiastical aspect of their organization with the Methodists or Anglicans from which they originated, so as to allow their clergy, their commissioned officers, more time to focus on coordinating charitable operations? Something along the lines of St. John’s Ambulance or the Knights of Malta, which are both charitable organizations in the Roman Catholic church, the latter with its own clergy in addition to charitable operations. I just find it bewildering.


I don't think any Christian would be opposed to baptism and the Lord's Table. They were instituted by the Lord and ought to be practiced in all the churches. Anyone found in opposition against the sacraments are in opposition with God.

I mentioned the case of the Salvation Army, where I am actually confused as to why they do not have the sacraments or coordinate with a church that does. There are two other cases however which occurred to me, where there are theological reasons which I do understand, although I disagree with them:

In the first case, we have the Quakers. Some Quakers do have baptism and holy communion; some have entirely programmed worship like any low church Protestant denomination. There are others who have unprogrammed or waiting worship, which I am not inherently opposed to as I myself think there is value in silence and silent or relatively quiet contemplation and prayer (for these reasons, I really am attracted to the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox monastic practices of hesychasm and continual mental recitation of the Psalter, and the Jesus Prayer, which Anglicans increasingly use as well in the Anglican Rosary, the Roman Catholic tradition of the low mass, and devotions such as lectio divina, the Holy Hour, the novena, and the Rosary, and the related Russian Orthodox prayer rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov). So the Quakers who have waiting worship but observe Baptism and Holy Communion I like, and have an interest in.

However, there are some Quakers who, I believe, have done away with baptism and the Lord’s Supper, and this I cannot agree with. Like the Salvation Army, these are still Nicene Christians who are defined as Christians by the Statement of Faith of this website, which I think is a very good means of identifying groups as Christians, and so I do respect them as Christian, but I really wish they would observe the sacraments, which are not without reason called ordinances.

There are also some liberal Quakers who have adopted a doctrine very similar to that of the Unitarian Universalists, albeit with worship being almost exclusively or exclusively of the unprogrammed, waiting worship form. However, these Quakers do not meet the CF.com definition of Christian, and I would argue they are basically a more mystical alternative to the Unitarian Universalists.

I have greatly enjoyed the Oxford Handbooks on Anglican Studies and Methodist Studies, and there is a new volume available on the Quakers which I think I will get.

The other group of Christians whose sacramental practices are somewhat incomplete are the Priestless Russian Old Believers. When the Nikonian Schism occurred in the Russian Orthodox Church in 1666 after Patriarch Nikon and the Czar forcibly introduced liturgical reforms, which is an interesting discussion in its own right, this caused quite a stir, and there were violent persecutions of traditionalists. There is a very sad painting showing an elderly babushka tied to a cart, being taken away by the militia to be executed for making the sign of the cross with two fingers instead of three.

Now, most Old Believers retained the full sacraments, either through their own hierarchies set up in Russia by sympathetic bishops, or else, by emigrating to Georgia or the Ottoman Empire and being received by the Georgian Catholicos or the Patriarchs of Constantinople and Romania (and I think Bulgaria as well), and later, the Russian Orthodox Church reversed its decision and welcomed Old Believers back into the church, complete with their more ancient liturgy, and of the Old Believers I have mentioned, all observe the seven sacraments recognized as canonical in the Eastern Orthodox church.

However, a minority of Old Believers came to an opinion which I think was erroneous, these being the “priestless Old Believers.” Presumably ignorant or suspicious of every other Orthodox church, including those which were extremely liturgically conservative such as the Georgian Orthodox Church, and doubting the legitimacy of the Old Believer bishops in Russia, they came to believe that all truly Orthodox bishops had been martyred, and therefore, when the last of their priests died around 1745, they believed there were no more Orthodox priests. So they continue to baptize their children, because laity in every denomination including the Orthodox can baptize in an emergency, and some of them still have the sacrament of marriage, but Priestless Old Believers do not have Holy Communion or other sacraments that require a priest or bishop, and they build their churches so that the iconostasis is a solid wall, without the royal doors or the deacons’ doors.

Despite not having priests, they observe a full cycle of services, including the usual Orthodox mainstays like the Paraklesis, All Night Vigils, Vespers, Matins, the hours, and the Typika, which is somewhat equivalent to Ante-communion in the Anglican tradition, in that it has most of the content of the Divine Liturgy, including the proper scripture lessons and hymns for the day, but lacks Holy Communion and can be served as a “reader service” without any of the prayers the priest would do. The Typika is actually used routinely in canonical Orthodox churches, for example, on some feasts where there is a Vesperal Divine Liturgy, and also as a standby if the priest is unavailable (which sometimes happens; several Eastern Orthodox churches have priest shortages and some small parishes have to share a priest, including parishes here in the US and Canada). The Priestless Old Believers are therefore in a melancholy situation because they have come to the dismal belief that there are no priests available anywhere. A number of them live in the area around Woodburn, Oregon; additionally, in Erie, PA, there was a Priestless Old Believer church, the Church of the Nativity, but they were persuaded that there were still valid priests, and became part of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia; they print English translations of the Old Rite service books and sell Lestovkas and other Russian Old Orthodox / Old Believer items, and I have bought several things from them. They also sell an inexpensive and charming little book called A Collection of Eastern Fables by a Russian Priest. I have spoken with them and they are lovely people.
 
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Andrewn

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However, a minority of Old Believers came to an opinion which I think was erroneous, these being the “priestless Old Believers.” . . . but Priestless Old Believers do not have Holy Communion or other sacraments that require a priest or bishop, and they build their churches so that the iconostasis is a solid wall, without the royal doors or the deacons’ doors.
I can always count on you to relay information about the weirdest sects :).
 
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The Liturgist

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I can always count on you to relay information about the weirdest sects :).

There were some weirder sects which resulted from an apocalyptic panic caused by the Nikonian schism. A benign group of priestless Old Believers that was nonetheless completely bizarre were the “Hole Worshippers” (dyrniki) who concluded that in the absence of a valid hierarchy, icons could not be validly used, so instead of an iconostasis, simply cut a hole to the outside in the shape of a cross in the apse of their churches and chapels.

Even stranger are the netovtsy, from the word nyet, who concluded there could be no valid sacraments at all, not even baptism, and then went a step further by saying nyet to praying in churches or any kind of dedicated religious building.

As strange as these sects are, they are still united by one common characteristic, that being a belief that the Russian Orthodox Church, before the Nikonian schism, was a fully legitimate church with valid sacraments and properly ordained clergy. The difference between the groups was the extent to which they believed that the sacraments of the Russian Orthodox Church and other Orthodox churches in communion with the Russian church remained valid. This distinguishes most of the 50 odd sects that resulted from the Nikonian schism from the Protestant denominations that emerged in the Reformation; some people have erroneously likened the Nikonian Schism to an Eastern Reformation when this is not the case at all; the Orthodox churches never reached a point where the majority of members of a particular church wanted to reform the historic, traditional practices of a church, but when bishops attempt for whatever reason to force through changes, this has historically tended to cause schisms.

One could actually draw a direct parallel between the mainstream Old Believer hierarchies which retained bishops, and the conservative Anglican movements in the US and elsewhere*. So the Edinovertsy, who are a part of the canonical Russian Orthodox Church and resulted from the church repenting of its decision to ban the old liturgy, are a bit like the Prayer Book Society; then of the two major Old Believer hierarchies with bishops, the larger of these, the Lipovan hierarchy, is a bit like ACNA in that its bishops were ordained by bishops in Georgia and the Ottoman Empire, and it has ecumenical relations, and the smaller group is a bit like some of the smaller Continuing Anglican churches. However, to my knowledge, no Anglican traditionalists have ever ceased to have certain sacraments or services due to a belief in a lack of valid clergy, and I think the reason for this likely relates to a fundamental difference between how Eastern and Western Christians regard the validity of ordinations and other sacraments, with the Augustinian ex opere operanto model prevailing in the West, and the somewhat more restrictive view of another brilliant Latin theologian, St. Cyprian of Carthage, which still fully avoids Donatism but requires an unbroken continuity of Orthodoxy, prevailing in the East.**

* It is amusing to consider the numerous instances wherein analogies can be drawn between Anglicanism and the various Eastern, Oriental and Assyrian Orthodox communions.

** It is likewise amusing to consider that in each case where a prominent Augustinian doctrine is rejected by the Orthodox churches, the heresy St. Augustine was fighting against is instead avoided through the use of another Latin speaking theologian of the Western church, with St. Cyprian of Carthage being the point of reference for sacramental validity, particularly in terms of Holy Orders, and St. John Cassian viewed as the last word on original sin and anti-Pelagian soteriology; in both cases the Orthodox church agreeing with St. Augustine in anathematizing Donatism and Pelagianism as dreadful heresy, but the specific alternative doctrines being read from other theologians.
 
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He was using a misunderstood verse of 1 Peter:
"to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also"
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Even stranger are the netovtsy, from the word nyet, who concluded there could be no valid sacraments at all, not even baptism, and then went a step further by saying nyet to praying in churches or any kind of dedicated religious building.

I remember reading that there were (not sure if they exist anymore) a small sect of polygamous Old Believers in Siberia.
 
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I can always count on you to relay information about the weirdest sects :).

I know! I got interested in weird sects because I find human religious behavior fascinating but Liturgist has me beat!
 
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