Creationism/Creation Science... approved by Arkansas house

HARK! said:

Interestingly, in the same school system just a couple of years later, I was reading my Bible in my HS homeroom class (a free period) The teacher walked up to me and told me to close it. I closed it; and I put it on my desk. He then told me to put it out of sight where no one can see it. I put it on the rack under my chair, with some of my other books. He then said, "no, put that in your duffel bag; where no one can see it." I did that. Then he said, "I don't want to see that here again."

Had I known what I know now; I would have found support to take this to the courts.

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My goodness. I think schools were way more carefree about the first amendment back then. At the same time other school districts were mired in religious promotion. I think we're getting better at knowing where to draw the line.

BobRyan said:

True - and we can "watch them not do that" all day long.

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As you know a single human lifetime is a small blip in the history the Earth and in the scale that evolution move in. Making an argument of "watch them not do that" is preposterous and is not evidence against evolution.

BobRyan said:

1. I am a creationist so of course I hold to a competing doctrine on origins - to the doctrine on origins found in certain forms of "evolution".

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I think it is fine that you poke and prod the theory of evolution with a critical eye. There are obvious gaps in the theory, in particular abiogenesis and this part which you are pointing out, how a primitive single cell without a distinct nucleus has turned into eukaryotic cells. And that is the point of science, to discover these mysteries. I thank you for pointing this gap out to me.

But I do find it quite odd that this same critical eye is completely closed when looking at your preferred alternative.
If science had proposed that a being with magical powers came to earth and wished all life forms into existence (poof viola) I would think people with a critical eye would be asking where is the evidence for this? And those people wouldn't be pointing to gaps in the theory of evolution and then saying well we don't know this therefore it must have been that being with magical powers that did it then. The critical person would be asking then why do we see evidence in DNA that gives the illusion of common ancestory? Why do we get a large number of marsupials in Australia, why did we get no land based mammals at all in NZ, why were there so many flightless birds in NZ? Why can we categorise life into a tree of life which gives the impression of evolution?
"Because the magic being chose to do it that way" isn't a satisfactory answer. Not to a person with a critical eye.

BobRyan said:

2. I maintain that observations in real life show that prokaryotes remain prokaryotes even over 75000 (or 40 million) generations of observation.

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It seems you haven't found your black swan, so you hold onto a belief that it can't exist.

I also have a black swan with regards to a supernatural realm. There is no evidence at all of anything being supernatural, no ghosts, no gods, no angels, not demons.

I do acknowledge that the ToE has some gaps. I acknowledge that abiogenesis is not understood, I acknowledge that the evolution of eukaryotic cells is not understood. But I think it is much less of a leap to suggest that it happened in the natural realm via natural forces (as did everything that we have observed so far happen due to natural forces) rather than to leap to some outlandish idea that there is this supernatural realm with supernatural beings who have powers of the natural realm and can wish things into existence.

So rather than running around in endless circles I will just acknowledge and thank you for pointing out that the evolution of eukaryotic cells is not yet known.

stevil said:

As you know a single human lifetime is a small blip in the history the Earth and in the scale that evolution move in. Making an argument of "watch them not do that" is preposterous and is not evidence against evolution.



I think it is fine that you poke and prod the theory of evolution with a critical eye. There are obvious gaps in the theory, in particular abiogenesis and this part which you are pointing out, how a primitive single cell without a distinct nucleus has turned into eukaryotic cells. And that is the point of science, to discover these mysteries. I thank you for pointing this gap out to me.

But I do find it quite odd that this same critical eye is completely closed when looking at your preferred alternative.
If science had proposed that a being with magical powers came to earth and wished all life forms into existence (poof viola) I would think people with a critical eye would be asking where is the evidence for this? And those people wouldn't be pointing to gaps in the theory of evolution and then saying well we don't know this therefore it must have been that being with magical powers that did it then. The critical person would be asking then why do we see evidence in DNA that gives the illusion of common ancestory? Why do we get a large number of marsupials in Australia, why did we get no land based mammals at all in NZ, why were there so many flightless birds in NZ? Why can we categorise life into a tree of life which gives the impression of evolution?
"Because the magic being chose to do it that way" isn't a satisfactory answer. Not to a person with a critical eye.


It seems you haven't found your black swan, so you hold onto a belief that it can't exist.

I also have a black swan with regards to a supernatural realm. There is no evidence at all of anything being supernatural, no ghosts, no gods, no angels, not demons.

I do acknowledge that the ToE has some gaps. I acknowledge that abiogenesis is not understood, I acknowledge that the evolution of eukaryotic cells is not understood. But I think it is much less of a leap to suggest that it happened in the natural realm via natural forces (as did everything that we have observed so far happen due to natural forces) rather than to leap to some outlandish idea that there is this supernatural realm with supernatural beings who have powers of the natural realm and can wish things into existence.

So rather than running around in endless circles I will just acknowledge and thank you for pointing out that the evolution of eukaryotic cells is not yet known.

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The strictest scrutiny possible of biological evolution, brushing aside mountains of evidence that affirm the big picture while harping on the remaining mysteries.

Yet throwing the door wide open to the most fantastical claims that require entire new realms of reality for which theres not a shred of evidence whatsoever.

There's got to be a word for this.

BobRyan said:

evolutionism

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Already taken.

I agree that evolutionary science is full of holes and gaps. However, there is an exciting beauty about its symmetries. What is established has rigour. It stands critical examination. It is incomplete but like any interesting puzzle, invites further study.

In contrast the Biblical account of the Creation tells us very little. Nothing about microscopic life that the creationists here are so obsessive about, for example. It demands belief but offers no evidence. It is a story to tell sitting round the night fires.

Basically it is just an inventory of what nomadic tribes could see on an ordinary day. The subject is never mentioned again.

JMV said:

This world has and always will say "i dont know, but by our own wisdom we will." Truth is self evident and will be put on open display in a very terrible way for the scoofers, yet remember all you self appointed christians that the atheist shall have it far better than you, for when they seek forgiveness they shall surely find it. For as it is written, it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?


For thus says the Lord:

7/1/11 From The Lord, Our God and Savior
The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy
For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear

"Therefore hear the Word of The Lord, O peoples of the earth, and gain wisdom: Are not the mountains risen up at the Word of My mouth? Do not the highest peaks break through the clouds at My command? Are not the depths carved out by My knowledge, and the seas filled according to My will? Who causes the clouds to gather together and bring forth rain? Who calls forth the wind from its place and stirs up the hurricane? Who speaks to the horrible mountain, causing it to burst forth, to spew its fervent heat? It is I who has done it, The One who formed it, The One who causes to be! My children, look upon the stars, upon the whole of the heavens, consider the vastness thereof, and know: YAH has spoken it into being, YAHUWAH caused it to be!
Behold, I have spread out life like a blanket, and caused it to multiply in all the earth; life fills every corner! And still mankind seeks out its beginnings and longs to know its source, asking in vain, “Where did I come from, and why are we here? From what source did all this life come, and how did it get here? What is the beginning, and how will it end?”
Blind and hard-hearted generation, deceived and ignorant peoples, foolish children, LIFE HAS A NAME! The Beginning and The End has walked among you! The Source and The Reason is here, and shall also come in great power and glory! From Him did you come forth, and to Him must you return, all you, His beloved. Behold, His names are many and wonderful![1] That which He is has no end, for as I AM so also is He! The Father and The Son are one, and our name, one - YAHUSHUA-YAHUWAH!


In the beginning was The Word, and The Word
Was with God, and The Word was God;
The same was in the beginning with God...

Through Him all things came into being,
And nothing in all creation was made apart from Him...

In Him was life, and The Life was the light of men;
The Light shines in the darkness,
And the darkness shall not overcome it...

And behold, The Word became flesh...

Immanu El!"

Indeed this world has been forced to admit it long ago; the universe had a beginning and was created. So man in his never ending prideful quest attempts to lay hold of the wisdom of the world, by it explaining the origin of Life:

4/14/06 From The Lord, Our God and Savior - The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy, For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear

"Yet men continue to seek out wisdom, yet never find it; they search for knowledge, yet it remains forever outside their grasp... For apart from Me there is no knowledge, apart from Me all understanding passes away. For I AM HE, The Only Fountain from which flows all wisdom and knowledge, The Source of all things."

~

"So then all who receive of Me grow wise,
Receiving of that which is pure,
Learning to walk in that which is eternal...

As one being led along a mountain stream of living waters,
Filled with a fervent desire to seek out its source;
Drinking from it along the way,
Gaining strength in weakness...

Leaving all behind in their holy pursuit.


Yet with the ungodly, it is not so. For the ungodly man proclaims the wisdom of the world, seeking always to lay hold on it, to make it his own. Thus he shall indeed gain the world, yet shall be left wanting, when all he has built up crumbles before his eyes. For all who remain married to this world shall surely share in its end. For the wisdom of man is like him - Grass of the field, here today and tomorrow thrown into the fire.
And thus shall the wisdom and glory of man be destroyed together, along with that which had sprung up from beneath - Lies, ever-growing deceptions, leading him away from The Truth and The Life. For like lost sheep all have gone astray; there are none who know, not one who truly understands... They run to and fro in all the earth, neither seeing or believing, grasping always at particles of dust blowing in the wind; worldly men sinking into the mire of their own ways, meet for death; a whole generation of dying children suffocating in the ever-shifting sands of religion, philosophy and science, falsely called truth and wisdom, built upon the corrupt knowledge of man and the evil one, all of which shall burn in the Day."

Atheists and christians alike, who, and not what, is the answer you're looking for. He the beginning and the end who walked among us in the flesh, Immanu El! YAHUSHUA-YAHUWAH:

"That which is revealed to one may not yet be revealed to another. And those who have seen, have seen, yet most have only understood dimly. Therefore trust is required, and comes before understanding, for understanding can only come from Me... For I am The Only Fountain, The Only Knowledge in which is life.
Beloved, when one loses sight of Me or turns away, understanding darkens. Yet one who keeps Me in front of them, coming to Me at all times and in every season, in them understanding brightens and they will have peace. For they abide in Me, and rest in the knowing that all things are held within My understanding, and are given and received according to the good pleasure of My will.

And indeed, this is sufficient for them,

For they had first sought after
The Kingdom of God and His righteousness...

By which much revelation was added to them
According to the Spirit which I have
Poured out for them...


Says The Lord YahuShua."

Fear of the Lord is indeed the beginning of wisdom! Blessed are those who say i dont know, can you teach me Lord. Yea:

"Blessed are those who answer, “Yes, Lord”,
For their faith is revealed...

Blessed are those who pray, “Your will be done, Lord”,
For they have great trust...

Blessed are those who say, “Amen, Lord”,
At all times and in every season,
For they have understood...

Blessed are those who know,
I AM WHO I AM;
They shall have peace..."

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Who you calling a scoofer?

BobRyan said:

My point was about prokaryotes observed in real time for 75,000 generations( or is it 40 million? depends on who you ask) - showing all day long that they are not turning into eukaryotes not even when observed over more generations than it supposedly took humans to evolve.

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This is new to me.
I thought it took about 3 to 4 billion years for evolution on Earth to generate what we see today as humans. That would be including thousands or millions of generations of single celled organisims in our ancestory line.

How many generations do you think there have been in our entire ancestory line? From the point when we had the very first "life" organism? That common ancestor that all life shares.

BobRyan said:

Well that is good of you - and would be expected in all normal branches of science - but it is pretty rare to find it when it comes to evolution.

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Science is applied to the Theory of Evolution. These people apply critical thought all the time.

BobRyan said:

That is not entirely correct. Abiogenesis technically speaking is about how dust, rocks and gas might "pop out" a bacteria given enough time

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It has some correlation to the Evolutionary process.
A process whereby change happens (randomly) and something more functional, more successful is eventually able to propagate and thrive in a contest against less successful structures for limited resources.

BobRyan said:

I agree that "looking for evidence" is an important step - no matter if we are talking about the doctrine on origins found in evolutionism or the one found in creationism.

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OK, and this search is ongoing, meaning we don't know everything yet. That is why people do science. It is a method of discovery.
Science hasn't yet started to investigate this "creationism" hypothesis, why is that?
Perhaps it is a poorly formed hypothesis, not leading to measurable observations, not offering a mechanism that is supported by previous scientific findings?
The suggestion that a god (not made of natural stuff like atoms), not bound to Space or Time, not bound to the rules of the known universe just willed things into existence. Well this would lead naturally to many questions
Why do we suppose there is a god?
What is the definition of a god?
What is the god made of?
How can this god interact with reality?
Have we ever observed this god?
Have we ever observed anything supernatural?

There would be many, many, many questions that would need to be answered before we delve into trying to find evidence that this god created the abundance of life that we have on earth.

Scientists over hundreds of years have discovered matter and energy, gravity, electromagnatism, atoms, sub atomic particles, DNA etc. These are all building blocks that go towards a more complicated theory of evolution.

What is known of the supernatural realm? What scientific tests can be made of this realm?
Does it have a supernatural universe? How old is that universe? Does it have matter and energy? How much? Does it have atoms and subatomic particles? Does it have time? How old is that realm? Does it have intelligent life? How did that life come to be? What were the origins of that life. Is there a variety of life forms in the supernatural realm? How did that variety of life come to be?
These should be the questions answered before we attempt to look at life from a supernatural realm crossing over to our natural realm and wishing our known lifeforms into existence.

BobRyan said:

I am sure you would agree that if I said "an easter bunny alien on another planet sent DNA to earth and that is how we got eukaryotes because we can show that just plopping DNA fragments on the ground results in Eukaryotes popping up like daisies" - well we would all have a few things to "test in the lab".

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Isn't that a reason why we should be exploring other planets such as Mars for life?
If we find life elsewhere and if it had DNA similar to ours, then that would be very interesting. Do we then have common ancestory with life on other planets? Can origins of life be carried on asteroids etc?
But if we find life on other planets where DNA is very different. Then that would also be very interesting.

BobRyan said:

The critical person might ask "why do all cars have carburetor no matter who makes them?"

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Good question. Have people shared knowledge with each other with regards to car design?
Have multiple people independantly invented the carburetor?

BobRyan said:

They might ask "why do all rockets use combustible fuel?"

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Yip, maybe we take one invention and apply it to new designs for things with new functions

BobRyan said:

or "why do all reentry vehicles have heat shields?"

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Perhaps all vehicles coming back into our atmosphere come in at a high speed and experience a great amount of friction which causes heat which is a big problem and needs to be addressed in designs.

BobRyan said:

- but they would not argue that a "common ancestor created them that way". They would argue something along the lines of "some design that works" vs failed designs imagined in earlier periods of human history.

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But these things that you have mentioned, don't have sex, they don't replicate and share their DNA. They don't have DNA that was passed down along their ancestral line, giving way to discover at what point in time the lineage branched out onto separate paths.

BobRyan said:

A critical person "might ask" -- "why does the fabricated tree of life diagram make it look like Eukaryotes popped out of a black or brown stick line ( instead of arising out of bacteria evolving over time the way evolutionists actually think it happened) ?"

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This is just nonsense. You do understand the concept of modelling don't you? A black or brown stick line, come on, please try to have a civil and somewhat intellectually honest conversation.

HARK! said:

Public school, big Liberal city, 7th grade, mid '70's.

This was a dedicated course on Astrology.

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What did you learn? I'm really curious....

BobRyan said:

Hmmm designing a good solution to the same problem means a lot of things being sent up there - all have to face the same problem and most of them do it with the same basic design solution. Something an intelligent designer would be expected to do - no matter how many different sorts of things sent up there that are expected to return in one piece (i.e. the same general problem to be solved)

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But then we have multiple "designs" if the eye. Human eye is very different to an octopus eye.
For creatures swimming, we have lots and lots of fish, but then we have some mammals (whales and dolphins)
Why are marsupials in Australia? Is it a coincidence that Australia has so many of them? Or is there more to it.
Evolutionary scientists have their answers.
What are the creationists answers?

BobRyan said:

Neither do rocks, dust, or gas. coming up with that vastly complex system from just rocks, dust, gas, sunlight -- is quite the trick for "rock" to do.

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Rocks aren't thinking intelligent beings, they don't come up with anything. This is a mischaracterisation and appears to be intentionally dishonest.
As you know, a Rock didn't give birth to, or create a fully formed living creature.

BobRyan said:

And if any of this were actually "simple as a rock" then if rocks can do it -- a scientist should be able o mix a few chemicals together and come up with a rabbit, a eukaryote?

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No, science is very complicated. Evolution is a simple process that has occurred for billions of years and has resulted in very complex structures. Scientists (even given their intelligence) can't compete with that, they can't just know how to create life, how to create cells, how to create DNA.

BobRyan said:

My statement was not "they saw the number of generations it took for dust and rocks to produce all life" -- rather I am taking one specific example "humans" and looking at how long it took "to get humans" from their previous ancestor to humans. Not "rocks"

so then taking that same number of observed generations at 40 years per generation would be about 5M to 11M years ago. Now ask yourself - what were humans supposedly doing 11M years ago? Answer -- there were no humans at all 11 M years ago even by evolution's terms/story-telling

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Evolution occurs faster when you have more instances of a species. If you have billions of a species then it takes less time for variants to appear in the population than when you have hundreds of a species.

BobRyan said:

I am looking for the one-celled life form prokaryote to make that one step jump from prokaryote with no nucleus - to a one-celled animal Eukaryote with a nucleus in a number of generations that it supposedly would take for our non-human ancestors to come up with humans.

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You are assuming that the "prokaryotes" now and in the experiments are the same as the ones that actually evolved in history, you are assuming that conditions now are the same as when it supposedly occurred in history.

BobRyan said:

More specifically how many generations since our most recent non-human ancestor to humans? or even from two ancestor levels below that -- to human?

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Changes are small.
Look at all mammals, we have a lot in common, our bone structures are very similar, but altered.
Going from prokaryotes to Eukaryote isn't just the lengthening or shortening of a bone size, it is a significant change.

I think that it is great that the Arkansas House felt the need to insert their own peculiar version of “science” into children’s curriculum because they could.
What better way to express one’s faith than to give the imprimatur of the Great State of Arkansas to a (at best) tangential sub-belief of that faith!?