God’s Foreknowledge

FutureAndAHope · Apr 28, 2021

The very fact that there was a tree in the garden of Eden should alert us to the fact of choices being important. Reformed theology nullifies man’s choosing, and makes salvation a choice that God makes, i.e. man has no part in salvation only God does. Reformed theology believes that God wills or is the cause of everything, that no acts is outside of God’s will. Basically He chooses a select few for salvation and damns the rest not giving them any chance of redemption.

Initially if you look into the theology, you could be lead to believe it is true, for it explains many verses in the Bible. However we have to be careful when breaking up scripture to not make a doctrine out of a few scriptures especially if there is counter scripture. So I will start with a counter scripture. A scripture that shows clearly that God did not preplan all the actions of man.

Gen 6:5-7 The LORD saw how bad the people on earth were and that everything they thought and planned was evil. He was very sorry that he had made them, and he said, "I'll destroy every living creature on earth! I'll wipe out people, animals, birds, and reptiles. I'm sorry I ever made them."

God’s will is not divided, how could He will the time of Noah and man’s response, know all about it, yet be sorry he created man. It makes no logical sense. So let’s go to the verses that are the center piece of Reformed theology. But before we begin, I will make a statement, I do not believe that the following verses apply to the individual salvation of man, which I believe is by freely responding to the message of the cross, and abiding in God’s will, bringing about salvation. But rather these scriptures apply to the “purpose of God” (Romans 9:11), the overarching plan God has for humanity. A structure, or thread of His will that runs through our everyday lives.

Rom 9:11-23 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Reformed theology, takes the above scripture as meaning that even our individual salvation is chosen by God, where I say it is the overall purposes of God that are chosen, pivotal points in history or our lives.

We know from the Bible, that “God is love”, in general if you read the Bible you see a fair minded God, who asks us to “love one another”, to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”; all in all God seems fair. The verses above seem far from fair, God hardens some, sending them to hell with no chance at all. That does not seem like, the God who says “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. But let’s go right back to the verse about God hardening Pharoah. What does it say?

Romans 9: 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Paul says inspired of the Holy Spirit, God “endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath”, what does he mean by that? Well,

2 Peter 3:9 says: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God is long-suffering, not willing that any perish, but that all, and I stress all, should come to repentance. If we flow this thought through the passage in Romans. It could be stated this way: “what if God wanting to show His wrath against the vessels of dishonor, had previously endured their behavior, i.e. attempted to bring them to salvation, but they had resisted it, so God gave them over to a plan that displayed His wrath”

Romans 1:20-22 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

But we have to admit from scripture that God has foreknowledge the ability to know certain events or people beforehand. But what people do not realize is you don’t need a fixed story to know certain people or events. A supercomputer can predict outcomes in a game of chess, which involves “knowing” all random choices a person can make. Using a thing called a Decision Tree, and for good reason, it predicts outcomes based upon decisions. Below you can see a Decision Tree for a simple game of Naughts and Crosses.

So how does this fit with God’s foreknowledge? Let’s say you have a dice, and roll it. It has 6 possible outcomes. If you roll it again the next time, it has the same six outcomes. If you record each outcome, maybe 5 first, then a 3, then a 2. Let’s say we wanted to record all possible outcomes that end in a 6 being rolled on the fourth try. It could be 1, 4, 3, 6 or it could be 2, 5, 1, 6. We would find there are many combinations but they all end in a 6. Let’s say 6 is our end game, it matters not what happens in between the first roll, and the last, as long as our last roll is a 6. Let’s say 6 represents the end of creation when Jesus returns, or what we have been talking about fixed points of God’s purpose. It matters not what happens in between as long as Christ returned, or our purpose is fulfilled. We can look at the numbers in between as free will choices, the freedom to have any number of outcomes does not affect our end game, as long as we force the last number to be a 6. I believe that God has set end game points in every person’s life, a point of decision, an important event, a choice event ordained by God. How we respond to these important events will determine the path for our life. Yet it is a path through what I would call a Decision Tree. This is why God could say in Genesis “I'm sorry I ever made them”. Yes God has foreknowledge, but at the point in Genesis that he “currently knew”, He was sad of the outcome. He still retained foreknowledge of all that would happen after, according to his plan and will.

public hermit · Apr 28, 2021

Did you intend to post this in this section? Your first "very fact" regards a tree in the Garden of Eden. That's not the best "apologetic" platform from which to start, but I'll watch.

As far as free will goes, it's not as popular as it used to be. If you want to reach these determinists, you're better off being a pseudo-Calvinist, who on the side is wholly open to universalism. I know, evangelicals are always 30 years behind the times.

(Please don't read the below, cited source, if bad language hurts your feelings. Thank you.)

The clockwork universe: is free will an illusion?

Mark Quayle · Apr 28, 2021

Someone once said, concerning liberals and conservatives, that they were two sides to the truth, and that the truth was probably somewhere near the middle. I will admit that Reformed Theology is not the whole truth, and that God will open our eyes too, but the truth has no regard for either point of view. The truth simply is. One point of view may be closer than the other, but neither are quite right. The truth is not in the middle, nor at either end.

FutureAndAHope said:
The very fact that there was a tree in the garden of Eden should alert us to the fact of choices being important. Reformed theology nullifies man’s choosing, and makes salvation a choice that God makes, i.e. man has no part in salvation only God does. Reformed theology believes that God wills or is the cause of everything, that no acts is outside of God’s will. Basically He chooses a select few for salvation and damns the rest not giving them any chance of redemption.

Again, you misrepresent Reformed Theology. It does not nullify man's choosing. Nor does it claim that God damns anyone, not being given a chance of redemption. People are damned for their sins, not for God's lack of mercy.

Reformed theology teaches 'two wills' of God, both evident from Scripture, and not confused. His command is one way he wills. His hidden plan is the other will. When you say RT teaches that nothing happens outside his will, I hope you realize which will you are referencing.

Also, I hope you mean by 'chance of redemption' something like 'opportunity of redemption'. If you believe in the ability of chance to cause anything you are contradicting yourself. Anyhow, why should God give anyone the opportunity of redemption? Does he owe them something?

FutureAndAHope said:
Gen 6:5-7 The LORD saw how bad the people on earth were and that everything they thought and planned was evil. He was very sorry that he had made them, and he said, "I'll destroy every living creature on earth! I'll wipe out people, animals, birds, and reptiles. I'm sorry I ever made them."

Just as do most of your ilk, you consider God, and his emotions, to be altogether like your own. Perhaps you forget that God is not like us --we are like him, to some small degree.

CS Lewis said, concerning the lion Aslan, the 'Christ' of Narnia, when asked if the lion was safe, Mr. Beaver says something like, "Safe??!! No, he's not safe! But he is good." You want a safe, tame, God. God owes you nothing. You pretend God is good according to your notions of 'good'.

But look at your implications: First you posit a god who is a victim of chance, and subject to our decisions. Then you think foreknowing means something like foresees --not forecauses. Well, even if he foresaw what would happen, but went ahead and created it anyway, then he CAUSED it. Therefore, if you believe in God's foreknowledge, you are contradicting yourself to say he did not cause it.

You also work off the common misconception, the exaggeration of the notion of God's choice, that if he chose, then nobody else did. That is simply not so. God almost always works through agency; he uses means to accomplish his ends.

You also operate from the human POV that defines choice as uncaused. That is simply nonsense.

FutureAndAHope said:
God’s will is not divided, how could He will the time of Noah and man’s response, know all about it, yet be sorry he created man. It makes no logical sense.

You jump right into your usual thinking: that God is like man. God planned this whole matter from the beginning. His sorrow, (not like ours), is from the amount of rebellion of the creature against the creator, not from having an epiphany. He

FutureAndAHope said:
So let’s go to the verses that are the center piece of Reformed theology.

Sudden change of direction here. Why go there? Why not show us here YOUR theology from scripture?

By the way, what makes you say these verses are the center piece of Reformed theology?

FutureAndAHope said:
But before we begin, I will make a statement, I do not believe that the following verses apply to the individual salvation of man, which I believe is by freely responding to the message of the cross, and abiding in God’s will, bringing about salvation. But rather these scriptures apply to the “purpose of God” (Romans 9:11), the overarching plan God has for humanity. A structure, or thread of His will that runs through our everyday lives.

Thank you for showing us from the get-go, how you color Scripture. But, what reason do you have for supposing that God's purpose, even his 'overarching plan', does not apply to the individual salvation of man?

FutureAndAHope said:
Rom 9:11-23 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Reformed theology, takes the above scripture as meaning that even our individual salvation is chosen by God, where I say it is the overall purposes of God that are chosen, pivotal points in history or our lives.

We know from the Bible, that “God is love”, in general if you read the Bible you see a fair minded God, who asks us to “love one another”, to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”; all in all God seems fair. The verses above seem far from fair, God hardens some, sending them to hell with no chance at all. That does not seem like, the God who says “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. But let’s go right back to the verse about God hardening Pharoah. What does it say?

Romans 9: 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Paul says inspired of the Holy Spirit, God “endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath”, what does he mean by that? Well,

2 Peter 3:9 says: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God is long-suffering, not willing that any perish, but that all, and I stress all, should come to repentance. If we flow this thought through the passage in Romans. It could be stated this way: “what if God wanting to show His wrath against the vessels of dishonor, had previously endured their behavior, i.e. attempted to bring them to salvation, but they had resisted it, so God gave them over to a plan that displayed His wrath”

Romans 1:20-22 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

"... not willing that any should perish, but that all..." You said you stress 'all'; why do you stress 'all'? Does God stress it the way you do? The context, even the rest of that verse you failed to completely quote, shows he is talking about the Elect, by the way.

FutureAndAHope said:
But we have to admit from scripture that God has foreknowledge the ability to know certain events or people beforehand. But what people do not realize is you don’t need a fixed story to know certain people or events. A supercomputer can predict outcomes in a game of chess, which involves “knowing” all random choices a person can make. Using a thing called a Decision Tree, and for good reason, it predicts outcomes based upon decisions. Below you can see a Decision Tree for a simple game of Naughts and Crosses.

So how does this fit with God’s foreknowledge? Let’s say you have a dice, and roll it. It has 6 possible outcomes. If you roll it again the next time, it has the same six outcomes. If you record each outcome, maybe 5 first, then a 3, then a 2. Let’s say we wanted to record all possible outcomes that end in a 6 being rolled on the fourth try. It could be 1, 4, 3, 6 or it could be 2, 5, 1, 6. We would find there are many combinations but they all end in a 6. Let’s say 6 is our end game, it matters not what happens in between the first roll, and the last, as long as our last roll is a 6. Let’s say 6 represents the end of creation when Jesus returns, or what we have been talking about fixed points of God’s purpose. It matters not what happens in between as long as Christ returned, or our purpose is fulfilled. We can look at the numbers in between as free will choices, the freedom to have any number of outcomes does not affect our end game, as long as we force the last number to be a 6. I believe that God has set end game points in every person’s life, a point of decision, an important event, a choice event ordained by God. How we respond to these important events will determine the path for our life. Yet it is a path through what I would call a Decision Tree. This is why God could say in Genesis “I'm sorry I ever made them”. Yes God has foreknowledge, but at the point in Genesis that he “currently knew”, He was sad of the outcome. He still retained foreknowledge of all that would happen after, according to his plan and will.

You say, "Reformed theology, takes the above scripture as meaning that even our individual salvation is chosen by God, where I say it is the overall purposes of God that are chosen, pivotal points in history or our lives."

Again, why do you suppose that? Anything there to that effect? He is talking about vessels, not a cupboard.

"... not willing that any should perish, but that all..." Why do you stress 'all'? Does God stress it the way you do? The context shows he is talking about the Elect, by the way.

You still make God subservient to mere chance. Chance can determine nothing.

Furthermore, you have no other reason to say God is not in complete control of every detail, than you preferred notion of love or kindness, and you assume what you do, because it fits your theology. Eisegesis.

FutureAndAHope · Apr 29, 2021

Here is a video I made to teach the topic of free will and destiny. You may prefer to listen rather than read.

Ceallaigh · Apr 29, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
God’s will is not divided, how could He will the time of Noah and man’s response, know all about it, yet be sorry he created man. It makes no logical sense. So let’s go to the verses that are the center piece of Reformed theology. But before we begin, I will make a statement, I do not believe that the following verses apply to the individual salvation of man, which I believe is by freely responding to the message of the cross, and abiding in God’s will, bringing about salvation. But rather these scriptures apply to the “purpose of God” (Romans 9:11), the overarching plan God has for humanity. A structure, or thread of His will that runs through our everyday lives.

I have a similar view regarding this. I don't think the predestined elect is in reference to every Tom, Dick, or Harry who's became a Christian. I believe certain people have been elected by God to fulfill certain substantial roles, with which God has woven the tapestry of his kingdom. Those mentioned in Hebrews 11 for example.

FutureAndAHope · Apr 29, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Again, you misrepresent Reformed Theology. It does not nullify man's choosing. Nor does it claim that God damns anyone, not being given a chance of redemption. People are damned for their sins, not for God's lack of mercy.

So I don't get it wrong in future, what does your theology say, in plain english, no more than a few paragraphs.

Also, I hope you mean by 'chance of redemption' something like 'opportunity of redemption'. If you believe in the ability of chance to cause anything you are contradicting yourself. Anyhow, why should God give anyone the opportunity of redemption? Does he owe them something?

God is not harsh in His interactions to bring about salvation. The bible says God is "faithful and just to forgive our sins"

Faithfulness relates to His long-suffering, waiting for us to repent. "Just" is truely that a just and fair God. A just and fair God would act with the attitude of "I do owe my creation a fair trial"; to say harshly "does he owe us something" comes from the harshness of your doctrinal position not God's heart.

Just as do most of your ilk, you consider God, and his emotions, to be altogether like your own. Perhaps you forget that God is not like us --we are like him, to some small degree....CS Lewis said, concerning the lion Aslan, the 'Christ' of Narnia, when asked if the lion was safe, Mr. Beaver says something like, "Safe??!! No, he's not safe! But he is good." You want a safe, tame, God. God owes you nothing. You pretend God is good according to your notions of 'good'.

This was in reference to the scripture in Genisis. DO you think the following scripture is not meant to be understood? You force it from your mind becasue it does not fit with your theology. You should rather fit your theology to it.

Gen 6:5-7 And the Lord saw that the sin of man was great on the earth, and that all the thoughts of his heart were evil. And the Lord had sorrow because he had made man on the earth, and grief was in his heart. And the Lord said, I will take away man, whom I have made, from the face of the earth, even man and beast and that which goes on the earth and every bird of the air; for I have sorrow for having made them.

But look at your implications: First you posit a god who is a victim of chance, and subject to our decisions. Then you think foreknowing means something like foresees --not forecauses. Well, even if he foresaw what would happen, but went ahead and created it anyway, then he CAUSED it. Therefore, if you believe in God's foreknowledge, you are contradicting yourself to say he did not cause it.

God is not a victim of chance, He preplanned all the possible outcomes of man so that we were protected within limits, or at least put a framework around man to limit his actions, to reduce possible harm. But free will is one of God's desires.

Act 17:26-27 And he has made of one blood all the nations of men living on all the face of the earth, ordering their times and the limits of their lands, So that they might make search for God, in order, if possible, to get knowledge of him and make discovery of him, though he is not far from every one of us:

You also operate from the human POV that defines choice as uncaused. That is simply nonsense.

Choice is simply that a choice. Our choosing or denying of Christ determines our outcome, whether we will have spiritual sight or blindness.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

2Th 2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Thank you for showing us from the get-go, how you color Scripture. But, what reason do you have for supposing that God's purpose, even his 'overarching plan', does not apply to the individual salvation of man?

Because it can mean either, but the very nature of "love" revealed in scripture shows us God's nature denies this type of action, that if it can mean "overarching plan", why should it not.

"... not willing that any should perish, but that all..." You said you stress 'all'; why do you stress 'all'? Does God stress it the way you do?

Why because you ignore the fact God wants to save all men not just ones He selected.

The context, even the rest of that verse you failed to completely quote, shows he is talking about the Elect, by the way.

We are Elect by God's selection, but the selection is based upon faith in Christ, and obedience to his word. It is first our choice to acknowledge God, and obey what we see.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

You say, "Reformed theology, takes the above scripture as meaning that even our individual salvation is chosen by God, where I say it is the overall purposes of God that are chosen, pivotal points in history or our lives."

Again, why do you suppose that? Anything there to that effect? He is talking about vessels, not a cupboard.

People can have an "overarching plan", applied to them. Whether for good or evil.

Furthermore, you have no other reason to say God is not in complete control of every detail, than you preferred notion of love or kindness, and you assume what you do, because it fits your theology. Eisegesis.

Not at all the bible says "God is love", we know what love is:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

A God with such attributes, would have all (that respond to His love) come to salvation, not choose a select few, and pour out wrath. The Bible does not say God is warth, no he is love.

Who is God angry with:

Rom 1:18 For there is a revelation of the wrath of God from heaven against all the wrongdoing and evil thoughts of men who keep down what is true by wrongdoing;

Those who suppress, flatten the truth, by living unrighteously. Those who hide teh truth so they can sin.

Mark Quayle · Apr 29, 2021

Edit: sorry, hit the button too soon.

Mark Quayle · Apr 29, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
So I don't get it wrong in future, what does your theology say, in plain english, no more than a few paragraphs.

You have a habit of claiming Reformed theology says something that is actually only your rendition of it, including your extrapolations of the precepts posited by RT.

Reformed theology cannot be put in a few paragraphs, but I will be happy to correct you where you wander.

In any of these paragraphs, you will find little you can debate, but must prop up what you think are logical implications, or a wrong focus, or any of a number of other irrelevant things to strike at. Reformed theology doesn't pretend to be an entire systematic theology, but rather a response to bad theology, and a positing of certain necessary truths. And there is a LOT I will not bother to put up, mostly because in those matters most of Christian theologies are in agreement with Reformed Theology. There are also many of these that pretty much all Christianity would agree with that I would consider particularly Reformed in use and meaning, screaming for my attention, and many also not coming to mind, but I don't have the time to think of and write them all.

But for starters, and these are in my own words, quickly written, subject to improvement:

Sovereignty of God, and of God alone. And so many other things logically extrapolated from Omnipotence.

God's reason for Creation is primarily for his own Glory. The creation of the temporal world is only a small part of that, done for the purpose of taking home to himself his particular creation --his people. His works, his actions, upon all creation, is for the praise of his Glory.

God's Freedom as First Cause, Omnipotent God is not bound, or obligated by any exterior cause. He owes nobody anything --not even an explanation.

God's nature is his attributes is who he is. Thus, for example, he does not do goodness because it is good, but good is what it is, because God does it. God's wrath 'carries him' but is totally under control. Existence is from God, not to God.

God is above, beyond, outside our knowledge, judgement, understanding, though he has shown us enough of himself that we are without excuse. And to whom much has been given, much will be required.

Also, TULIP:

Total Depravity: Modern Reformers wish this had been called Total Inability, since it does not claim that lost man can do no good, but that everything lost man does is in enmity to God, and so he is unable to please God. Thus, he is unable to, of his own fallen will, 'accept' Christ, nor does he find anything attractive in submitting to God. He is spiritually DEAD! Unable to even grasp at Salvation.

Unconditional Election: This means only that God did not look on any merit or worth or deeds of any person in order to choose those he chose for his particular people. They cannot earn anything, of themselves. God in his sovereign wisdom chose who he did for his own reasons and his own uses, and that, by his own counsel.

Limited Atonement: Many also wish this went by another name: Particular redemption. The Atonement is a specific payment for all the sins of a specific people. The redemption is thus limited to only those to whom God chose to show his particular mercy.

Irresistible Grace: When God the time is right, God places his Holy Spirit within each person he chose, and that, without consulting the person. The Spirit of God then, and not by invitation nor by permission granted nor by any other work or worth of man, irrevocably changes the will, the heart of that person, giving him new birth, spiritual life instead of the death that had been his prison.

Perseverance of the Saints: What God has begun he will complete. Those he has chosen for himself will indeed remain in him to the end, and will be with him in Heaven. This too is the supernatural work of God.

FutureAndAHope · Apr 30, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Total Depravity: Modern Reformers wish this had been called Total Inability, since it does not claim that lost man can do no good, but that everything lost man does is in enmity to God, and so he is unable to please God. Thus, he is unable to, of his own fallen will, 'accept' Christ, nor does he find anything attractive in submitting to God. He is spiritually DEAD! Unable to even grasp at Salvation.

Have you considered:

Rom 2:4-8 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his works: to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,

It is not that man can not be saved, man need only look at the good nature of God to be saved. I know that what keeps me saved, is not some dread for a heartless God, but his love shown to me when I was undeserving. His long-suffering kindness in revealing the cross, and its forgiveness, and it's call to all people, those who will respond to the light He gives. A kindness revealed in His words to "forgive 77x7", a love that "pardoned the adulterer", healed the sick, and made us share in His works. He, not counting my sins against me, calling me free, yet drawing me to live a holy life, a higher life than before. You know, we can have all knowledge but if we have not love we are nothing.

I also would say, we can indeed be pleasing to God. For so was Cornilius:

Act 10:1-4 Now there was a certain man in Caesarea, Cornelius by name, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always. He saw in a vision openly, as it were about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming in unto him, and saying to him, Cornelius. And he, fastening his eyes upon him, and being affrighted, said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are gone up for a memorial before God.

Mark Quayle · Apr 30, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
Have you considered:

Rom 2:4-8 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his works: to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,

It is not that man can not be saved, man need only look at the good nature of God to be saved. I know that what keeps me saved, is not some dread for a heartless God, but his love shown to me when I was undeserving. His long-suffering kindness in revealing the cross, and its forgiveness, and it's call to all people, those who will respond to the light He gives. A kindness revealed in His words to "forgive 77x7", a love that "pardoned the adulterer", healed the sick, and made us share in His works. He, not counting my sins against me, calling me free, yet drawing me to live a holy life, a higher life than before. You know, we can have all knowledge but if we have not love we are nothing.

I also would say, we can indeed be pleasing to God. For so was Cornilius:

Act 10:1-4 Now there was a certain man in Caesarea, Cornelius by name, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always. He saw in a vision openly, as it were about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming in unto him, and saying to him, Cornelius. And he, fastening his eyes upon him, and being affrighted, said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are gone up for a memorial before God.

Of course I've considered Romans 2.

I didn't say man cannot be saved. But the Gospel is the grace of God --not the work of man.

I thought I had answered you about Cornelius. Somehow you think that God's work in Cornelius is a result of his devoutness. Have you not considered that his devoutness was a result of God's work?

Do you really think a person can earn God's attention, and that while being a slave to sin, Dead in sin?

FutureAndAHope · Apr 30, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Of course I've considered Romans 2.

I didn't say man cannot be saved. But the Gospel is the grace of God --not the work of man.

I thought I had answered you about Cornelius. Somehow you think that God's work in Cornelius is a result of his devoutness. Have you not considered that his devoutness was a result of God's work?

Do you really think a person can earn God's attention, and that while being a slave to sin, Dead in sin?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I acknowledge that the true work of God in a person's life is what makes the righteous. But we need to understand that God "loved", the world and it's people. Love, endures all things, even when crucified Christ said "Father forgive them for they do not know what they do".

God may only see small actions on our part as treasures in His sight. He knows we are prone to sin, imagine a man prone to sin, doing works that mirror God's own heart. As it was said of David, he was a man after god's own heart.

We all may be given signposts, opportunities to display God's nature, but most of us fail to act rightly. Yet Cornelius was a man who acted with the heart of God. So his gifts were a memorial in the eyes of God. So he was chosen as the first Gentile to receive Christ.

FutureAndAHope · May 4, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Furthermore, you have no other reason to say God is not in complete control of every detail, than you preferred notion of love or kindness, and you assume what you do, because it fits your theology. Eisegesis.

I thought I would clarify my belief here, to show that it is scriptural.

So how does it work? I believe that each of us are given during our lives bursts of light, revelation of God. All of us will encounter God at some point in our lives. How we respond to this knowledge will determine the course of our lives. If we respond with thankfulness, and turn to Christ, then His good plan is begun in our lives. If we harden our hearts against God, and refuse all of His mercy, then our eyes will be darkened to the truth, and eventually we will perish.

I believe it happens as follows:

God shows us His will and nature, of forgiveness, and asks us to turn from sin to God.

Romans 1:20-22 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

This turning to love for God, and His commands is what ultimately brings about saving grace.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.

Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

People who turn from God to sin will eventually perish, if they refuse to return and repent. They become spiritually blind.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

But this salvation is held out to all people, not just a select few. The Elect are those who turn to God, who respond to His invitation of life. They are still selected by God, but based upon the fact they respond to His offer of forgiveness.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Mark Quayle · May 4, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
God shows us His will and nature, of forgiveness, and asks us to turn from sin to God.

Romans 1:20-22 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

You do realize, do you not, that the text you quote says nothing about God's nature of forgiveness, nor does it say anything about God 'asking' us to do anything.

FutureAndAHope said:
This turning to love for God, and His commands is what ultimately brings about saving grace.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.

Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

"Choose you this day whom you will serve
John 12 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."

And there's plenty more such verses. And how do you think it is that anyone will do such a thing as to turn to Christ?

To hear you tell it, the first step is done by the sinner, who has no inclination toward Christ. Enemy of God. Unable to please God.

To hear you tell it, you have whereof to boast in saving your soul.

FutureAndAHope said:
People who turn from God to sin will eventually perish, if they refuse to return and repent. They become spiritually blind.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

All true. How does that show Free Will? The lost will do what the lost do.

FutureAndAHope said:
But this salvation is held out to all people, not just a select few. The Elect are those who turn to God, who respond to His invitation of life. They are still selected by God, but based upon the fact they respond to His offer of forgiveness.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Who is that 'whosoever'?

The 'us', the 'any', the 'all', is found in the context. The Elect.

They are chosen by God for his purposes, before they ever did anything.

FutureAndAHope · May 4, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
You do realize, do you not, that the text you quote says nothing about God's nature of forgiveness, nor does it say anything about God 'asking' us to do anything.

What it tells us is God's attributes are clearly seen but some people choose to deny those attributes and continue in sin, so their hearts become darkened. That is the point I was making.

"Choose you this day whom you will serve
John 12 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."

Not sure what you are getting at here, but again it says, all people, "will draw all to Myself".

And there's plenty more such verses. And how do you think it is that anyone will do such a thing as to turn to Christ?

No one would turn to your view of Chirst, but I praise God that is not the real Christ. The real Christ, leads men to repentance by His goodness.

To hear you tell it, the first step is done by the sinner, who has no inclination toward Christ. Enemy of God. Unable to please God.

No - John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

To hear you tell it, you have whereof to boast in saving your soul.

Not at all the boast is on God's behalf, that it was not that we loved God, but God revealed His love to us, and as Jesus said "we" responded with a changed heart.

1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

All true. How does that show Free Will? The lost will do what the lost do.

It shows that the reason for damnation was people choose to not love the truth (as it says that they could have been saved) but they choose to act unrighteously.

Who is that 'whosoever'?

The 'us', the 'any', the 'all', is found in the context. The Elect.

They are chosen by God for his purposes, before they ever did anything.

All means all, not a select few.

Mark Quayle · May 4, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
What it tells us is God's attributes are clearly seen but some people choose to deny those attributes and continue in sin, so their hearts become darkened. That is the point I was making.

You introduced the text (Romans 1:20-22) as evidence of your claim: "God shows us His will and nature, of forgiveness, and asks us to turn from sin to God."

So I said, "You do realize, do you not, that the text you quote says nothing about God's nature of forgiveness, nor does it say anything about God 'asking' us to do anything."

FutureAndAHope said:
Not at all the boast is on God's behalf, that it was not that we loved God, but God revealed His love to us, and as Jesus said "we" responded with a changed heart.

HOW did we respond, if we cannot please God (Romans 8) unless God has changed our will from enmity to love?

FutureAndAHope said:
1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Quite! Exactly!

FutureAndAHope said:
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

And this contradicts predestination of the Elect how?

FutureAndAHope said:
It shows that the reason for damnation was people choose to not love the truth (as it says that they could have been saved) but they choose to act unrighteously.

Wherefore, they are without excuse. But where does it say they could have chosen the truth aside from God changing their heart?

FutureAndAHope said:
All means all, not a select few.

Synergism.

FutureAndAHope · May 4, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
HOW did we respond, if we cannot please God (Romans 8) unless God has changed our will from enmity to love?

This is a general statement about the flesh. Of course, the fleshly deeds are unpleasing to God. This does not mean God destains us, He sees the good in His creation. But He also knows that without His Spirit creation can not be truly righteous.

And this contradicts predestination of the Elect how?

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

How, God obviously wants a response from man. It is not God just chucks His Holy Spirit in us and makes us conform to His image. No. We must respond to His call, with obedience, and love.

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Mark Quayle · May 4, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
This is a general statement about the flesh. Of course, the fleshly deeds are unpleasing to God. This does not mean God destains us, He sees the good in His creation. But He also knows that without His Spirit creation can not be truly righteous.

Do you understand the term, "Born Again"? How about "Enmity"? "Cannot"? And we Reformed are accused of evading the plain sense of the language! With a sweep of the hand, you wipe away a whole doctrine, with bare assertion: "general statement"?? Because you say so? Then you follow it up with more: "He sees good in his creation" Yeah, but his creatures? The fallen? Where do you find license to modify the plain meaning of the text like this?

"But He also knows that without His Spirit creation can not be truly righteous." What? Without his Spirit humans cannot be righteous at all!

Mark said, "And this contradicts predestination of the Elect how?"
To which, you post (again):

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

You said: "How, God obviously wants a response from man. It is not God just chucks His Holy Spirit in us and makes us conform to His image. No. We must respond to His call, with obedience, and love."

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Yes, those verses. They defeat Reformed Theology how? By misrepresenting Reformed Theology? It doesn't teach that "God just chucks his Holy Spirit in us and makes us conform to his image". It does teach that we respond --in fact that we are compelled by the love of God to respond-- with obedience and love, not to mention repentance and submission. It does not, just in case you were about to go there, say that obedience is automatic. If one does not obey, that one is not saved.

FutureAndAHope · May 4, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Do you understand the term, "Born Again"? How about "Enmity"? "Cannot"? And we Reformed are accused of evading the plain sense of the language! With a sweep of the hand, you wipe away a whole doctrine, with bare assertion: "general statement"?? Because you say so? Then you follow it up with more: "He sees good in his creation" Yeah, but his creatures? The fallen? Where do you find license to modify the plain meaning of the text like this?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The world that Jesus was talking about, was it rocks and stones, or people, to who are loved by God.

Ok you did not reply to this:

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Points to note:

God opens a man's earths to the truth
He commands them to return from sin

They now have a choice. Which ends in:

Prosperity and pleasures

Or

Destruction and death

How is that not a choice?

My doctrine is God shows, man responds, God then assigns the outcome. How about these other ifs:

1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.

Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

Did God lie to Cain?

Mark Quayle · May 4, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The world that Jesus was talking about, was it rocks and stones, or people, to who are loved by God.

Ok you did not reply to this:

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Points to note:

God opens a man's earths to the truth

He commands them to return from sin

They now have a choice. Which ends in:

Prosperity and pleasures

Or

Destruction and death

How is that not a choice?

My doctrine is God shows, man responds, God then assigns the outcome. How about these other ifs:

1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.

Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

You're not listening. I have been saying all along that Reformed Theology does not rule out choice! In fact, as I've been saying all along, Reformed Theology INSISTS on choice! The caricature has you deciding what to say before you even hear what RT actually teaches.

FutureAndAHope · May 4, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
You're not listening. I have been saying all along that Reformed Theology does not rule out choice! In fact, as I've been saying all along, Reformed Theology INSISTS on choice! The caricature has you deciding what to say before you even hear what RT actually teaches.

Genuine choice? Any man can be saved? Out of 100 people. God reveals HImself to each of the 100, and their choice determines their fate?

As a smaller sample, of 3. Solomon, Cain, Israel.

Each given the choice of life, or death, based upon their obedience to God.

3 out of 3 given a choice. Cain failed. So did Solomon. Israel did not do much better. If Cain was damned, he at least was given the choice of life. Do you give 100 out of 100 that choice?

1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.

Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

God’s Foreknowledge

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Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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