Wisconsin Catholic priest warns congregants against Covid vaccine, defying pope and his bishop

Certainly interesting. I was wondering if no catholic priest would stand up

Lord have mercy!

Occasionally I wonder why I joined the Catholic Church. It seems to have just as many cranks as some of the other denominations.

We need more courageous priests like Father Altman. God bless him!

Fenwick said:

Fr. Altman making mainstream headlines, you know if that's the case then he's doing something right!

The pastor of a Roman Catholic church in Wisconsin has been leading his flock astray by urging them to shun the Covid-19 vaccine.

The Rev. James Altman, of the St. James the Less Catholic Church in La Crosse, made his feelings clear about the vaccines in a posting that appeared in the church bulletin on April 18.​

Wisconsin Catholic priest warns congregants against Covid vaccine, defying pope and his bishop

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I have said all along that people can have legitimate questions about the COVID vaccine given it doesn’t have full approval yet. It’s a matter of weighing that risk against the risk of getting COVID, and the latter is not just about us but about the overall community.

But I can’t say that in this case Fr. Altman is “doing something right.” He’s in defiance of his bishop and his vow of obedience to him. That should only occur in a clear-cut situation where a bishop is clearly in the moral wrong – and that is not the case here. He’s actively encouraging people to not get the vaccine which could have devasting affects on his parishioners and those they come into contact with. “God is still the best doctor and prayer is still the best medicine” – we are not a faith that shuns medical treatment and should have prudence in seeking the same. While I can respect when people make the personal choice to not get vaccinated I can’t respect a person in authority actively encouraging people to reject that option. Not when we’re approaching 600,000 people dead from COVID in the last year. This is not a “hoax” as Fr. Altman has claimed and his deception in that will not be without consequences.

That article also mentions Bishop Strickland and his urging people to reject any vaccine that has any connection to abortion. Unfortunately to my knowledge there are no COVID vaccines available that have no ties whatsoever, although as the USCCB has made known some are more objectionable than others. I have in general admired Bishop Strickland, but my question for him would be this – are you also going to encourage people to not get the MMR vaccine as well? Because to my knowledge, it was tested using the same fetal cell line as the COVID vaccines. Why reject this vaccine specifically but not others? Are we willing to go back to the days that a pregnant woman has to live in fear that she contact rubella during her pregnancy resulting in a child with a severe birth defect or a miscarriage as a result? Is that truly being pro-life? Are we willing to thoroughly research each medicine that may be prescribed and reject any that have comparable issues, regardless of the consequences to our health? It would seem to me that we would have to if we take Bishop Strickland’s request seriously and be geniunely consistent. It doesn’t appear to me he’s done his research on this topic and that’s a shame. Basically the conspiracy theorists found a claim to throw out there that raises legitimate concerns about the vaccine with the pro-life community, and unfortunately some jumped on it without doing the necessary research or considering the full ramifications of that position. Unfortunately it makes us seem anything but pro-life and leaves a huge gap in terms of a holistic, consistent approach in dealing with this issue in the realm of medicine. To reject this vaccine on the grounds of the abortion issue when to be consistent we’d have to reject many other medical treatments doesn’t make any sense, and makes us look a bit foolish in my opinion. And unfortunately, because of the opinions put forth by Fr. Altman and Bishop Strickland, there will no doubt be unnecessary deaths as a result.

Bob Crowley said:

Occasionally I wonder why I joined the Catholic Church. It seems to have just as many cranks as some of the other denominations.

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Why wouldn't we?

I remember having a discussion with an Evangelical one time and they were certain they had no child abusers in their church. Of course they defined church as their local congregation. Still I think most of us know few families or church congregations are not impacted by that evil.

I didn't really get into it with her but afterward I did wish I had asked her if that was true one might wonder why Satan was so little troubled by their small group that he didn't feel the need to expend the energy to sow weeds in their corner of the wheat field. Because it seems to me that if he were concerned about their impact on things he would be much more active.

narnia59 said:

But I can’t say that in this case Fr. Altman is “doing something right.” He’s in defiance of his bishop and his vow of obedience to him. That should only occur in a clear-cut situation where a bishop is clearly in the moral wrong – and that is not the case here.

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So, what is your model of the Church? A political correctness institution? There is another name for that, namely, (drumroll) ... communism

The point I want to make is, that if Altman is doing this from conscience, then he is free to do that. Conscience is something that is lacking in communism, and other totalitarian religions. In those systems you just have to follow orders.

Would be interested to hear your view on this.

PeterDona said:

So, what is your model of the Church? A political correctness institution? There is another name for that, namely, (drumroll) ... communism

The point I want to make is, that if Altman is doing this from conscience, then he is free to do that. Conscience is something that is lacking in communism, and other totalitarian religions. In those systems you just have to follow orders.

Would be interested to hear your view on this.

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He is free to do that and his bishop is also free to discipline him if he sees fit. And I am free to disagree that his actions are noble. Being free to do something doesn't mean it is wise, or the right thing to do, or prudent though.

While the Church does teach that we must always obey our conscience, there are also stern warnings that our conscience if not well formed can lead us astray. I guess I am a bit leery of the conscience argument in general because I have seen people use it to justify doing all kinds of things that are morally wrong. I have no doubt that many Catholic politicians would tell us that their informed conscience tells them that supporting abortion as the law of the land is the right thing to do. And my guess is at least some of them really believe that. Many have been deceived by their own pride that leads them to think that through their conscience they have discovered they are smarter than the Church. It is definitely a two-edged sword.

A lot of his reasoning is just wrong. Example -- "If the injection actually worked, no one who actually took it would have any cause for fearing anyone who did not. They would be 'safe' even if you coughed in their face." Since none of the vaccines are 100% effective nor do they claim to be, then yes, people still need to be cautious. How hard is that to understand?

Another example -- "If the injection actually worked, you would not get COVID-19 but people do." Again what part of not 100% effective is so hard to understand? That doesn't mean the vaccine isn't highly effective.

And his end line that "God is still the best doctor and prayer is still the best medicine" almost sounds like a faith healing type of position where we do not have an obligation to use ordinary and proportionate means to preserve our own health.

I understand that there are reasonable questions about the vaccine and everyone has to make their own decision and weigh the risks. I would have no problem if Fr. Altman had personally decided against taking the vaccine. I would have no problem if he told people that he had personally decided to not take it. But to call COVID 19 a hoax is an insult to all of us who have lost loved ones to this horrid disease. And to urge people to not take the vaccine based upon reasoning that is less than sound I think is a questionable way to use the role of a pastor.

So if someone believes they are doing something as instructed by their conscience does that automatically absolve them from the consequences of their actions?

narnia59 said:

I have no doubt that many Catholic politicians would tell us

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While I do agree with much of the general principles you laid out, and while I can not say that I have any understanding of american politics, living in Denmark which is hardly a christian country by now, I do get the feeling that politicians (unfortunately) are willing to say just anything that will get them closer to some desired political outcome, example their re-election.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my request.

While on the topic of politicians, and this whole menagerie that we are facing.
Now this may not mean much to you in US, who know not a lot about european history.
In the 1930'es we had in Europe, beginning in Germany the nazism, where laws of public health were introduced, which eventually led to the jews being a threat to public health and therefore put into special camps.
Now again we see, at least here in Denmark, erection of prison camps, and introduction of public health laws to remove by force anyone who is "suspected to suffer from a critical disease". Coincidentally, Covid-19 has been given the status of a critical disease. So we see the same spectacle once again in Denmark, as we did 90 years ago in Germany.

In the 1930'es, the catholic church was recorded to largely not speak out against the rising nazism, and I am afraid that once again the catholic church will remain silent.

narnia59 said:

He is free to do that and his bishop is also free to discipline him if he sees fit. And I am free to disagree that his actions are noble. Being free to do something doesn't mean it is wise, or the right thing to do, or prudent though.

While the Church does teach that we must always obey our conscience, there are also stern warnings that our conscience if not well formed can lead us astray. I guess I am a bit leery of the conscience argument in general because I have seen people use it to justify doing all kinds of things that are morally wrong. I have no doubt that many Catholic politicians would tell us that their informed conscience tells them that supporting abortion as the law of the land is the right thing to do. And my guess is at least some of them really believe that. Many have been deceived by their own pride that leads them to think that through their conscience they have discovered they are smarter than the Church. It is definitely a two-edged sword.

A lot of his reasoning is just wrong. Example -- "If the injection actually worked, no one who actually took it would have any cause for fearing anyone who did not. They would be 'safe' even if you coughed in their face." Since none of the vaccines are 100% effective nor do they claim to be, then yes, people still need to be cautious. How hard is that to understand?

Another example -- "If the injection actually worked, you would not get COVID-19 but people do." Again what part of not 100% effective is so hard to understand? That doesn't mean the vaccine isn't highly effective.

And his end line that "God is still the best doctor and prayer is still the best medicine" almost sounds like a faith healing type of position where we do not have an obligation to use ordinary and proportionate means to preserve our own health.

I understand that there are reasonable questions about the vaccine and everyone has to make their own decision and weigh the risks. I would have no problem if Fr. Altman had personally decided against taking the vaccine. I would have no problem if he told people that he had personally decided to not take it. But to call COVID 19 a hoax is an insult to all of us who have lost loved ones to this horrid disease. And to urge people to not take the vaccine based upon reasoning that is less than sound I think is a questionable way to use the role of a pastor.

So if someone believes they are doing something as instructed by their conscience does that automatically absolve them from the consequences of their actions?

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With respect, in your last paragraph, I think you've used the wrong motivation.
A well founded conscience will always have as it's motifying factor that of the Christian's love and obedience to God, before anything else.
So if there is a subsequent concern that comes before that motivation, (such as "If I say this what will my Bishop think?") Then that person's prime activating factor is not that of pleasing God, but one of saving their own skin.

Finally, a voice of reason! I'm not about to jump ship just yet (as far as vaccination is concerned), but its refreshing to hear at least one lone countervoice in the middst of what seems to be a tsunami of insanity.
The thing I've been reacting to the most is the popes words on the matter. To coining vaccination with moral obligation and thus making it some sort of a moral imperative is not ok! It kind of reminds me of the old Gallilio and the pope controvercy. The pontif has no relevant education making him qualified to make such statements. Its an unfortunate mixing of roles, a mixing of roles that we usually find unpermissable in any secular society.
Institutional differenciation doesnt make room for such to occure.

The same goes for global warming etc. Theres no way to defend the theological framing of those issues whatsoever!

Fr. Altman is right about the main object of the church. It is not to be politicized and just another "human rights watch", but to lead her flock towards their eternal salvation. Vaccination and climate change is just ad hoc noice that prevents the church from fullfilling her main duty, namely to bring people to heaven.

Thank you, Stabat, for your kind words!!
Yesterday I received my Catholic Diocese newspaper. In the newspaper was an article from Rome that promoted the prevailing thought that it was ok by the Church if people got the shot.
I cried! I sobbed!!
Where is the foundation of the Church when we need her??
In His grace, God gave us 10 commandments to live by. And each week we are supposed to review those commandments, and see how our actions match up.
The current Covid vaccines and how they are made fail to reach those standards. Instead the way they are made requires the cells of aborted children for testing purposes.
The question that no one has yet asked is this:
Why, if living cells are required for testing, have the pharmaceutical companies not asked for volunteer donors???
But no. Instead they buy these from abortionists, and thus they support what the Church forbids except in cases where the mother's life would be endangered if the pregnancy were to continue.
So this is how it pans out:
1.children are murdered.
2. Their cells are harvested and sold to pharmaceutical companies for profit.
3. The companies make the shots. They profit.
4. People are taught to place their trust and faith in companies that profit from murder.
5. They do so, and the Church endorses it.
So tell me, what happened to make the Catholic Church (which has supported the sanctity of life for centuries) suddenly decide that it was more important to support this?

I know and I will always know that my daily life is in God's hands.
And that before I live each day, all of the events of that day have gone through His hands. And only what I can endure with His help has been passed on to me, that by living what He gives me, I can glorify Him.

So ask yourself this:
does this shot, as it has been made and promoted, glorify God in any way?

pdudgeon said:

So ask yourself this:
does this shot, as it has been made and promoted, glorify God in any way?

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I'll answer your rhetorical question in simple words: NO!

The church failed us in the face of nascism and she fails us again. It's not ok to "talk the talk, but not to walk the walk!". If we claim to be against abortion we should live by it!

The church has betrayed us by her rhetoric. Our lives are, as you say, in the hands of almighty God. Our days has been counted from the very beginning. Nothing we do can ever make a difference.

In God my saviour I trust!

pdudgeon said:

So ask yourself this:
does this shot, as it has been made and promoted, glorify God in any way?

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I think He permits it without willing it. So far most vaccines have some connection to abortion. In different degrees. Some are morally repugnant and should be avoided. I decided that I would refuse the J and J one for example. Some have more remote connection to abortion. I got jabbed with the Pfizer vaccine. And I have objected to it’s remote connection to abortion. I think we need to do more of that. Catholics have hospitals and medical schools and should be able to either make a good vaccine or shape the marketplace by demanding a good vaccine.

We should be on guard against going after each other on this. But we should be demanding moral vaccines. That’s where we are failing.

chevyontheriver said:

I think He permits it without willing it. So far most vaccines have some connection to abortion. In different degrees. Some are morally repugnant and should be avoided. I decided that I would refuse the J and J one for example. Some have more remote connection to abortion. I got jabbed with the Pfizer vaccine. And I have objected to it’s remote connection to abortion. I think we need to do more of that. Catholics have hospitals and medical schools and should be able to either make a good vaccine or shape the marketplace by demanding a good vaccine.

We should be on guard against going after each other on this. But we should be demanding moral vaccines. That’s where we are failing.

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Yep, that's what I am wondering too. We know that God is capable of making a vaccine if He wants one. Nothing is too hard for Him.

We also know that in the End Times there will be trials that will separate the faithful, as well as temptations and deceits from Satan to sway, if possible, the faithful away from God.
What I pray is that no one will turn away from their beliefs.
Our God is faithful, and His hand can protect us. I believe this.
What I'm finding is that there's an awefull lot of hatred and misconception out there in the World, regarding those who have decided not to take the shot.
I can't speak for everyone, but for myself, I think that this is an individual's choice, and that what they choose is between them and God.