Date of Triumphal Entry

mkgal1

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That is too bad. Read the article as you have done with all other articles, studies, Bible, etc. No deadline for you. Take your time.
It's not really "too bad". I'm grateful to be able to do what I can and still be alive. God has shown His faithfulness to me in a very powerful and personal way. He can get messages and lessons through to us in very personal ways. He truly is the Great Counselor.....Wise Rabbi.....Good Teacher.

How gracious of you to not hold me to a deadline. Thanks for the "grace".
 
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grafted branch

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The covenant can only be confirmed by the death of the testator. It cannot be confirmed by baptism while Christ was still alive. Therefore, the covenant was confirmed at the Cross, not Baptism.
Fair enough, Hebrews 9:16-17 states that a testament is in force after the death the testator. That would mean that sins couldn’t actually be forgiven until the testator died. However Matthew 9:2-6 has Jesus forgiving sins prior to his death. How did Jesus get the power to forgive without dying first? Wouldn’t the fact that he was able to forgive sins be conformation of the covenant?

It seem to me that confirming the covenant and having the covenant in force are related to each other but not the same thing.
 
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Christian Gedge

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The covenant can only be confirmed by the death of the testator. It cannot be confirmed by baptism while Christ was still alive. Therefore, the covenant was confirmed at the Cross, not Baptism.

Fair enough, Hebrews 9:16-17 states that a testament is in force after the death the testator. That would mean that sins couldn’t actually be forgiven until the testator died. However Matthew 9:2-6 has Jesus forgiving sins prior to his death. How did Jesus get the power to forgive without dying first? Wouldn’t the fact that he was able to forgive sins be conformation of the covenant?

May I butt in here? The 'confirmation of the covenant' should be understood as a process of confirmation that took place over the full span of seven years (the 70th week) beginning with his baptism and ending with the promise given to the Gentiles. This was the covenant first promised to the patriarchs and elaborated in Daniel 9:24.

Obviously the greater part was fulfilled in Messiahs atoning death, but the last two clauses were completed in Pentecost, then up to and including the Gentile Pentecost of Acts 10.

For a full explanation please see chapters 10 and 14 of The Atonement Clock.
 
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TribulationSigns

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grafted branch

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May I butt in here? The 'confirmation of the covenant' should be understood as a process of confirmation that took place over the full span of seven years (the 70th week) beginning with his baptism and ending with the promise given to the Gentiles. This was the covenant first promised to the patriarchs and elaborated in Daniel 9:24.

Obviously the greater part was fulfilled in Messiahs atoning death, but the last two clauses were completed in Pentecost, then up to and including the Gentile Pentecost of Acts 10.

For a full explanation please see chapters 10 and 14 of The Atonement Clock.
I agree with most of what you’re saying here but Daniel 9:24 says 70 weeks are determined. So the list of items in Daniel 9:24 doesn’t necessarily have to happen in the final week. I doubt many people would argue against “to anoint the most Holy” being Jesus’s baptism but this event could’ve happened in the 69th week. I downloaded your book from the link (I really appreciate you making this available) and I’m going to take a look at it but is there a reason that Jesus’s baptism has to be the first day of the confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9:27? I question this being the first day of the 70th week because of Daniel 12:11-12.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Fair enough, Hebrews 9:16-17 states that a testament is in force after the death the testator. That would mean that sins couldn’t actually be forgiven until the testator died. However Matthew 9:2-6 has Jesus forgiving sins prior to his death. How did Jesus get the power to forgive without dying first? Wouldn’t the fact that he was able to forgive sins be conformation of the covenant?

So you are saying that all Old Testament Saints before the Cross did not have their sins forgiven before they physically died? The Holy Spirit did work in the Old Testament. See...the servants of God, all servants of God from the Old and New Testament, are sealed when they become believers. And they cannot be unsealed or resealed or any other extra sealing you want to bring up. Because that sealing (securing) is salvation by grace, and thus they are secured until the day of redemption. But don't take my word for it:

Ephesians 4:30

[30] "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

Abel was sealed, Lot was sealed, Noah was sealed, Abraham was sealed, Peter was sealed, and low and behold I was sealed too. This is what some people cannot seem to grasp. The sealing of Israel has been going on since the very first believer, and it doesn't hesitate/stop/pause until the very last believer is sealed. Unsealed, resealed, these are not words found in the bible. You are painting scenarios that don't exist. All Israel shall be saved the same way, by the deliverer out of Zion who takes away their sins. Where does this comes from. Christ Himself, at the Cross when He died, so that the Holy Spirit TRANSCENDS time, going back to the old Testament and New Testament.

Zec 14:8-9
(8)
And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
(9) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The former sea represents Saints from Old Testament. The hinder sea represents Saints from the New Testament.

The Holy Spirit is not limited to the events of the cross forward, from the day of Pentecost forwards. No, Israel of God is from the first saved person IN CHRIST to the Last saved person IN CHRIST, from Abel to the Last Elect of all time. Remember the Olive Tree (Covenant Israel) existed BEFORE the Cross, some were broken off after the Cross and Gentiles started to grafted into that SAME Covenant Israel.

I like to add that the Old Testament Saints had the same spirit of Christ dwelling in them just as we do. It moved them in their walk and in their lives just as it moves us in ours. Or did you think that Old Testament saints were just inherently righteous to walk into fiery furnaces, fight with lions, kill hundreds with the jawbone of an ass, and offer up their son as a sacrifice? No. The Spirit of Christ within them moved them to righteousness just as it moves us. The believer, Pre-Christ, is not one wit different from the believer post-Christ. They are all saved by faith of Christ that they have the power over death, and they were all saved by the blood of the "New Testament." The Old Testament believer by faith looking forward to Christ's death. That is why they had the physical temple, altar, animal sacrifices, feasts, etc. were only a shadow or example of a true pointing to Christ's Death. While the New Testament believer by faith looking backwards to Christ's death. Based on the confirmation of the covenant at the Cross, through the Holy Spirit, Christ can forgive His people in the former sea and the hinder sea.

Hope it helps.
 
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TribulationSigns

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May I butt in here? The 'confirmation of the covenant' should be understood as a process of confirmation that took place over the full span of seven years (the 70th week) beginning with his baptism and ending with the promise given to the Gentiles. This was the covenant first promised to the patriarchs and elaborated in Daniel 9:24.

Unbelievable, Christian Gedge! You have ignored Hebrew 9.

God's Word is CLEAR on WHEN and HOW the covenant was confirmed by the mediator of the covenant.

Heb 9:15-17
(15) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
(17) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

See? The covenant cannot be started, strengthened or become a force when the testator was baptized with water while he was alive! Sorry, bud, but God is clear that the covenant only can become a force the moment the testator died. Period. Just like the will, we prepared before our death today. It is an inheritance for your children. Your children will not receive your inheritance until your will becomes a force the moment you die. Not "7 years in process". That's absurd.

Nowhere in the Bible that will support your "process of confirmation": No, it is confirmed when Christ cried, "it is done!" And He died.
 
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Christian Gedge

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the list of items in Daniel 9:24 doesn’t necessarily have to happen in the final week

Verse 24 explains the six clauses that make the covenant, and verse 27 tells us which week and how long it would take.
“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week”
 
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grafted branch

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So you are saying that all Old Testament Saints before the Cross did not have their sins forgiven before they physically died? The Holy Spirit did work in the Old Testament. See...the servants of God, all servants of God from the Old and New Testament, are sealed when they become believers. And they cannot be unsealed or resealed or any other extra sealing you want to bring up. Because that sealing (securing) is salvation by grace, and thus they are secured until the day of redemption. But don't take my word for it:

Ephesians 4:30

[30] "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

Abel was sealed, Lot was sealed, Noah was sealed, Abraham was sealed, Peter was sealed, and low and behold I was sealed too. This is what some people cannot seem to grasp. The sealing of Israel has been going on since the very first believer, and it doesn't hesitate/stop/pause until the very last believer is sealed. Unsealed, resealed, these are not words found in the bible. You are painting scenarios that don't exist. All Israel shall be saved the same way, by the deliverer out of Zion who takes away their sins. Where does this comes from. Christ Himself, at the Cross when He died, so that the Holy Spirit TRANSCENDS time, going back to the old Testament and New Testament.

Zec 14:8-9
(8)
And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
(9) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The former sea represents Saints from Old Testament. The hinder sea represents Saints from the New Testament.

The Holy Spirit is not limited to the events of the cross forward, from the day of Pentecost forwards. No, Israel of God is from the first saved person IN CHRIST to the Last saved person IN CHRIST, from Abel to the Last Elect of all time. Remember the Olive Tree (Covenant Israel) existed BEFORE the Cross, some were broken off after the Cross and Gentiles started to grafted into that SAME Covenant Israel.

I like to add that the Old Testament Saints had the same spirit of Christ dwelling in them just as we do. It moved them in their walk and in their lives just as it moves us in ours. Or did you think that Old Testament saints were just inherently righteous to walk into fiery furnaces, fight with lions, kill hundreds with the jawbone of an ass, and offer up their son as a sacrifice? No. The Spirit of Christ within them moved them to righteousness just as it moves us. The believer, Pre-Christ, is not one wit different from the believer post-Christ. They are all saved by faith of Christ that they have the power over death, and they were all saved by the blood of the "New Testament." The Old Testament believer by faith looking forward to Christ's death. That is why they had the physical temple, altar, animal sacrifices, feasts, etc. were only a shadow or example of a true pointing to Christ's Death. While the New Testament believer by faith looking backwards to Christ's death. Based on the confirmation of the covenant at the Cross, through the Holy Spirit, Christ can forgive His people in the former sea and the hinder sea.

Hope it helps.
I agree that everyone both Old Testament and New Testament are all saved the same way which is through the blood of Christ. I agree Old Testament was looking forward to the cross and we are now looking back at the cross. I also agree that people can’t lose their salvation. That being said, there is obviously a difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. Since the new covenant took effect immediately and not over a period of time, why does Daniel 9:27 say he shall confirm the covenant for one week? Do you think the new covenant will expire after the week?
 
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grafted branch

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Verse 24 explains the six clauses that make the covenant, and verse 27 tells us which week and how long it would take.
“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week”
Ok, thanks. I will read your book before I ask any more questions.
 
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mkgal1

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Do you think the new covenant will expire after the week?
The "New Covenant" is also prophesied as the "everlasting covenant" and "covenant of peace" so it doesn't "expire". The only temporary covenant was the Mosaic Covenant.
 
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keras

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[QUOTE="Christian Gedge, post: 75928911, member: 404494 However your timeline from creation says that we are now only nine years from the 6000-year mark.

What are you implying here? Are you expecting a major event at that time? If so, I cannot support such an idea, because there simply isn’t any scriptural justification for it. We are given certain signs concerning the times we live in and that is sufficient for me. I don’t believe specific endtime events can be dated as his first coming could.[/QUOTE]

I am expecting many major events before Jesus Returns at His Appointed time. All as described throughout the Bible and especially in Revelation.

The sequence of the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, will take place as listed. The first five Seals were opened by Jesus at His Ascension, proved by all the Christian martyrs of the fifth Seal and culminating with the 7th Bowl; the Battle of Armageddon, at the Return. Revelation 16:16-17
 
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Timtofly

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I appreciate your honest adjustment concerning the date of Jesus death to AD 30. It is indeed a pivotal point in human history. However your timeline from creation says that we are now only nine years from the 6000-year mark.

What are you implying here? Are you expecting a major event at that time? If so, I cannot support such an idea, because there simply isn’t any scriptural justification for it. We are given certain signs concerning the times we live in and that is sufficient for me. I don’t believe specific endtime events can be dated as his first coming could.
Exodus 20:9-11

"Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

God cannot punnish past the point of the Law.

I guess if you you interpret that as 6 indefinite lengths of days, you would be consistent in theology.

"Thou shalt labor for an indefinite period of time, and the 7th Day will be an indefinite period of time, in addition to the commanded amount of time."
 
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grafted branch

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Verse 24 explains the six clauses that make the covenant, and verse 27 tells us which week and how long it would take.
“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week”
I looked at chapters 10 and 14. You have the first day of the 70th week as 1 Nisan AD 27 and it also being the day in John 1:29 where John the Baptist says behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus’s baptism in Mark 1:9-13 has him immediately being driven into the wilderness after he is baptized. Jesus’s baptism had to have taken place at least 40 days prior to 1 Nisan AD 27. That puts Jesus’s baptism into the 69th week which I personally would agree with. But that also prevents all 6 clauses in Daniel 9:24 from happening in the 70th week if “to anoint the most Holy” is referring to Jesus’s baptism.

In chapter 10 you have an explanation of “to anoint the most Holy” which I mostly agree with but it has Jesus’s baptism in the 70th week. So the Pentecost event is a possibility for the completion of “to anoint the most Holy” on Daniels people, which would put the completion of all 6 clauses in the 70th week. But if Jesus’s baptism is used as part of the anointing then I’m not seeing how that event can fit into the 70th week.

I have not studied prophetic timelines so I can’t even begin to submit a reason for placing the first day of the 70th week as the day Jesus started to preach other than my understanding of Daniel 12:11-12. So I see I’m going to have to take a closer look at how prophetic dates are determined. The one thing I’m still not convinced of is Jesus’s baptism being part of the confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 or happening in the 70th week.
 
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Timtofly

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Confirm:

establish the truth or correctness of (something previously believed, suspected, or feared to be the case).

How is Jesus Christ confirming at the first Advent? It seems to me that is God doing the confirming. The only time Christ can confirm is at the Second Advent. The Second Advent is when Jesus Christ confirms to the many the NT. The first advent was God confirming the Atonement to the OT church.

Technically it is God confirming both times, but from a physical time aspect, God was establishing the Atonement. The Atonement already established from the foundation of creation.

Daniel 9:26 is God confirming the Messiah at the first Advent. Daniel 9:27 is Messiah at the 7th Trumpet confirming the end and fulfillment of Daniel 9:24.


The issue that is made, is that the fulfillment of the destruction of 70AD Jerusalem is attempting to define the whole 70 weeks. That is not the case. This destruction would also happen after 69 weeks just as much as Jesus being born and living on earth happened after 69 weeks. Remember that part of the definition of confirm deals with a prior established belief or thought. It is not an absolute new idea.

Paul explains this point in Galatians 4:4-5

"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."

The 69 weeks were complete. 69 weeks was the fullness of time, not 70 weeks. Christ would come prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. The Jews rejecting Jesus Christ did not cause the destruction of Jerusalem. Daniel already prophecied it would be destroyed. Paul says that Christ was born under the Law. Had the Temple been destroyed prior to the first advent, Christ would not have been born under the Law. That does not mean the Law could not have been done away with first. The timing just allowed the fact Christ experienced the Law. It was only for the sake of those under the Law. Has nothing whatsoever to offer Gentiles who were never under the Law.

Those who do not allow a gap, if consistent should not even allow Gentiles into verse 24:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city."

In fact, the church is taken away at the Second Coming in the 6th Seal. The confirmation is too the many, in verse 27, after the Gentile church is removed. "Thy people" can only refer to the house of Jacob, and not the grafted in branch. The Gentile church was not part of the 69 weeks. The church was grafted in during the gap after Messiah was "cut off". That does not effect the Atonement one bit. The Atonement was by faith for the natural branch just as equally as the branch grafted in. The promise of Daniel 9 does not even involve the Gentile church, not once. The only mention is that Gentiles would destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. Gentiles do not confirm the Covenant. God is Who is determining and confirming what happens in the 70 weeks.
 
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grafted branch

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Those who do not allow a gap, if consistent should not even allow Gentiles into verse 24:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city."
I know from previous conversations with you that you believe that those who were in Sheol (Abraham’s bosom) were removed at Christ’s first event.

When a believer dies now, which of the 6 clauses in Daniel 9:24 would Jesus still need to confirm for them? Or, since you believe in a gap, when a Jew dies in the future, which of the 6 clauses in Daniel 9:24 would Jesus still need to confirm for them?
 
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DavidPT

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But that also prevents all 6 clauses in Daniel 9:24 from happening in the 70th week if “to anoint the most Holy” is referring to Jesus’s baptism.

I have never understood the logic as to why some argue that is meaning Jesus' baptism, and that this is the first thing on the list they have Jesus fulfilling--yet it is the last thing mentioned in verse 24, not the first thing mentioned.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Why does the text say 70 weeks are determined, to finish the transgression, unless it actually means that? A lot of interpretations have everything in that verse fulfilled by the middle of the 70th week.

If a judge sentenced someone to 10 years in prison for a crime, with no possibility of parole, would anyone suggest that before the 10 years have elapsed, this person already paid for the crime in full? Instead of that, why not this instead? While he is spending 10 years in prison he is in the process of paying for his crime. When he is released from prison he has paid for his crime in full. Shouldn't something similar be true about verse 24, that until the 70 weeks have finished entirely, the transgression concerning Daniel's ppl and Daniel's holy city, is not quite finished yet?
 
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Timtofly

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I know from previous conversations with you that you believe that those who were in Sheol (Abraham’s bosom) were removed at Christ’s first event.

When a believer dies now, which of the 6 clauses in Daniel 9:24 would Jesus still need to confirm for them? Or, since you believe in a gap, when a Jew dies in the future, which of the 6 clauses in Daniel 9:24 would Jesus still need to confirm for them?
The confirmation is for the living in dead bodies on earth. Those in Paradise need no confirmation period. Adam was banned from Paradise. Paradise was not banned from Creation. Paradise did not need redemption and none of those promises.

Those who claim spiritual interpretation are saying that as well. They cannot apply it to physical life on earth any more or less than I do. The day of Redemption for those in Paradise was the day the soul left this corruptible body for an incorruptible one. What people who claim spiritual application are essentially doing is trying to enforce earthly physical sin and flesh on those in Paradise. That was not the result of the Cross. Those who deny the Millennial reign of Christ deny that those 6 conditions will ever be physical and relate to physical earth.

Those 6 conditions can never effect dead people. Why would that ever be considered? Dead people do not physically enjoy life on earth. Nor do they deal with those 6 conditions in sheol or Paradise. Paradise was never corrupted, needing those 6 conditions. Sheol is eternal damnation, and obviously is never going to change. Do those 6 conditions apply to the physical now, the only place they would ever make sense? No they do not.
 
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DavidPT

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The exact date that Decree was promulgated is just simply; not known.
All we can be sure of, is that it was 483 years before 30 AD.
YOU prove otherwise.


I'm not trying to prove otherwise. Presently I'm on the same side of the debate that you are on. Yet, I'm pointing out, that to be fair to other side, one needs to prove that the triumphal entry was 483 years after the commandment in question went out. I'm just trying to figure out if I am actually on the correct side of the debate here? I can see the logic in 'unto Messiah the Prince' meaning His triumphal entry, but does it agree with history, that 483 years earlier a commandment went out at that time?
 
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