The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Clare73 said:

It remains for you to Biblically demonstrate such from NT doctrine.

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Clare, I am just saying that one should read the Bible with one's God-given common sense, without having the sense biased by pre-existing theology. Text first! Later, the theology. I keep saying that we (yes, me included) are like school children sitting in on a Masters Class, or we are like beach-goers who have barely dipped our toes into a vast ocean.

Shrewd Manager said:

Right. So the plain meaning of the scripture is not to be qualified or minimised. We're just required to take it on faith and at face value. God's going to do something great.

Clare, if you were saved by grace, and not by anything you did, why do you deny that God will save every soul the same way? It's only His expressed plan, after all.

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I guess 'cause I don't take my NT doctrine from personal interpretation of OT prophecy, particularly when it disagress with what Jesus said:

"Whoever does not believe in the name of God's one and only Son is condemned already." (John 3:18)

Lazarus Short said:

Clare, I am just saying that one should read the Bible with one's God-given common sense, without having the sense biased by pre-existing theology. Text first! Later, the theology. I keep saying that we (yes, me included) are like school children sitting in on a Masters Class, or we are like beach-goers who have barely dipped our toes into a vast ocean.

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Actually "text first" is exactly how I came to my understanding of Biblical revelation.

And I didn't arrive at my understanding by my personal interpretation of OT prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8),
which can be understood in more than one way.

Which is exactly why I require Biblical demonstration of what you assert.

Likewise, common sense will never have understandng of the infinite and divine, for that understanding is anything but common.

Clare73 said:

I guess 'cause I don't take my NT doctrine from personal interpretation of OT prophecy, particularly when it disagress with what Jesus said:

"Whoever does not believe in the name of God's one and only Son is condemned already." (John 3:18)

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That's why Jesus came, Clare. To seek and save those already condemned to death in Adam. What would be the point otherwise? Oh my.

Clare73 said:

I guess 'cause I don't take my NT doctrine from personal interpretation of OT prophecy, particularly when it disagress with what Jesus said:

"Whoever does not believe in the name of God's one and only Son is condemned already." (John 3:18)

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Shrewd Manager said:

That's why Jesus came, Clare. To seek and save those already condemned to death in Adam. What would be the point otherwise? Oh my.

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Precisely! "Whoever believes in the name of God's one and only Son is not condemned."(John 3:18)

"Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36)

And those who die in unbelief of the person and work of Jesus Christ for remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice
remain condemned.

No universal salvation there. . .well, according to Jesus anyway.
Full disclosure: not everyone agrees with Jesus.

Clare73 said:

Precisely! "Whoever believes in the name of God's one and only Son is not condemned."(John 3:18)

"Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36)

And those who die in unbelief of the person and work of Jesus Christ for remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice
remain condemned.

No universal salvation there. . .well, according to Jesus anyway.
Full disclosure: not everyone agrees with Jesus.

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Ok Clare, so we can agree that scripture teaches the ONLY thing that prevents ppl seeing the life of ages, the life eternal, is BELIEF.

But you say that ppl who die in unbelief will be resurrected to be destroyed/ damned. I say they are resurrected to have their unbelief destroyed, so they may be saved (even as through fire). They are destroyed in the sense that they 'die to self', the false identity that cleaves to sin and the flesh dies. We all have some such parts that need to be overcome. Your vision is of endless misery and suffering for the many, mine is of restoration and healing.

So I'd suggest that you're overlooking the core tenets of our faith that God is love and Yahusha is His salvation, and that we need to build our hope on that immovable foundation, not just for ourselves but for our neighbours as well, indeed for all of mankind. I commend it to you as the gospel of reconciliation in the spirit of victory.

Saint Steven said:

Here's another facet of this. To make matters even MORE challenging.

Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

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For to him all are alive. Interesting. I'm surprised that didn't jump out to me the last time I read Luke. All the translations and the lexicon I looked at say the same thing.

Shrewd Manager said:

Ok Clare, so we can agree that scripture teaches the ONLY thing that prevents ppl seeing the life of ages, eternal life, is BELIEF.

But you say that ppl who die in unbelief will be resurrected to be destroyed/ damned.
I say they are resurrected to have their unbelief destroyed, so they may be saved (even as through fire).

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However, Jesus says they are resurrected to be condemned to the fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).

They are destroyed in the sense that they 'die to self', the false identity that cleaves to sin and the flesh dies.

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Only if that is the sense in which the devil and his angels are destroyed.

Please give NT Scriptures which present this teaching.

We all have some such parts that need to be overcome.
Your vision is of endless misery and suffering for the many, mine is of restoration and healing.

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And herein is your offense against the word of God written.

You assume a "better vision" than Jesus. You prefer your "vision" and opinion over that of Jesus.
No argument is sufficient against one's inordinate preferences.

So I'd suggest that you're overlooking the core tenets of our faith that God is love and Yahusha is His salvation,

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And I emphattically assert that you apply Scriptural truth and principles according to your fallen human judgment and wisdom regarding what is best, in much ignorance of most of the NT revelation regarding God and man.

]and that we need to build our hope on that immovable foundation, not just for ourselves but for our neighbours as well, indeed for all of mankind. I commend it to you.

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And I think you should write your own bible with your own notions for your own superior religion.

Clare73 said:

Please give NT Scriptures which present this teaching.

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Behold, I am making all things new!

How's that?

Clare73 said:

And herein is your offense against the word of God written.

You assume a "better vision" than Jesus. You prefer your "vision" and opinion over that of Jesus.
There is no argument against one's inordinate preferences.

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Now now Clare, please don't resort to that tactic. We're both interpreting scripture here.

Clare73 said:

And I emphattically assert that you apply Scriptural truth and principles according to your fallen human judgment and wisdom regarding what is best, in much ignorance of most of the NT revelation regarding God and man.

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That's a non sequitur Clare, unless you take the essence of God as fatherly love and salvation to mean something warped and untoward.

Clare73 said:

And I think you should write your own bible with your own notions for your better religion.

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We can write it together - I'll condemn everyone to hell, and then you step in and save them in ever-loving grace and mercy. How's that for a plotline?

Shrewd Manager said:

Behold, I am making all things new!

How's that?

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A great example of what I'm talking about.

That's a non sequitur Clare, unless you take the essence of God as fatherly love and salvation to mean something warped and untoward.

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Contrare. . .that is a perfect sequitur. . .you deny the teaching found everywhere in the Bible that God is not only loving, he is also just.

I view God's plan from verses I find in the Bible such as 2 Peter 3:9, The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Salvation is made available for all from Christ's coming and bearing everything for it, but coming to Christ in repentance with faith to follow Christ who is Lord is needed, those doing that are covered in Christ, while God's justice which is not compromised must come.

Saint Steven said:

So, Jesus died to save us from God? That's an interesting (and seemingly unnecessary), plan.

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And being wiser than God, you would know.

I think salvation from God's condemation for my sin (Romans 5:18) is a great plan!
Why don't you?

Saint Steven said:

Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

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Saint Steven said:

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

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And spiritually we do not, even in Gehenna.

Clare73 said:

And being wiser than God, you would know.

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I wish you'd stop with the snarky retorts. I'm sure you must know by now he's talking about a doctrine that he considers to be incorrect.

MMXX said:

I wish you'd stop with the snarky retorts. I'm sure you must know by now he's talking about a doctrine that he considers to be incorrect.

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Are you sure about that? He mocked "Jesus died to save us from God."

Is he not talking about Jesus dying to save us from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9)?
That doctrine is not incorrect, and if he thinks it is, then he sees himself to be more wise than God.
Where am I wrong here?

What incorrect doctrine to you think he is talking about.