Does the Bible forbid women from being preachers/pastors?

Childofgodharrison said:

Exodus 39:1
Moreover, from the blue and purple and scarlet material, they made finely woven garments for ministering in the holy place as well as the holy garments which were for Aaron, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.
You probably won't except this scripture either.

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Of course I accept the Scripture.
I don't accept the way that you interpret and apply it - there is a big difference.
Somebody made a garment for Aaron to wear. So?
You said earlier;

Childofgodharrison said:

Do you think that the bible is going to tell us everything? The bible is a spiritual book. If you understand the spiritual meaning then you will understand it in a different way.

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You've been talking about accepting these things spiritually, not physically - which is why you've complained that I think a covering is a literal hat.
Now you're saying that Aaron had a covering because someone made a literal robe for him to wear. So what?
You can't say, one minute, that these are spiritual things and the Bible is talking spiritually, and then quote where he had a physical covering that was actually made for him.

And again, you're jumping around Scripture, taking verses out of context and trying to make them fit your scenario.

Your interpretation of the Scriptures is between you and God; I'm done.

Strong in Him said:

I preach, but there might be those who say that I do not give formal sermons - especially if I'm using puppets or other visual aids.
And in practice, what's the difference between a woman leading a house group and explaining a Bible passage, teaching that passage in Bible college or school and preaching from the passage in a church building on a Sunday?

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"Pastors" do more than just preach.

But since you've made clear that you preach but are not an ordained minister, the title of this thread and what the debate has been all about might be in question. No?

Kilk1 said:

What interpretation does this book give? I'd be interested in hearing a summary of the book's interpretation!

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In sum, the presentation by Kroeger & Kroeger in their book is that there are a lot of extra-biblical, 1st century cultural contexts which Paul's writing to Timothy doesn't include. They say we need to do our historical homework (which Kroeger & Kroeger discuss over 220 pages) so we can better understand what Paul was saying about women on the whole. Kroeger & Kroeger basically pull the tires off the tired old mantra that women can't our shouldn't ever "speak" or "teach" in the presence of men.

The late Spiros Zodhiates, being Greek himself and a New Testament Greek scholar, analyzes the language used by Paul in the New Testament, as well as offering some moderate textual criticism, to arrive at some similar conclusions that Kroeger & Kroeger have.

Albion said:

"Pastors" do more than just preach.

But since you've made clear that you preach but are not an ordained minister, the title of this thread and what the debate has been all about might be in question. No?

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I wasn't answering, or arguing, only from my point of view.

Strong in Him said:

I wasn't answering, or arguing, only from my point of view.

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Well, that wasn't my point. Pastors and Preachers are not identical in meaning, and most of the discussion on this thread and on others similar to it has dealt with women as pastors, ordained ministers, i.e. clergy. If your post identified, even in passing, a variation on the issue, we'd better adjust.

For example, a lot of time has been spent on women speaking in the church and/or being submissive to their husbands, but while that affects the willingness of some churches as regards women preaching in some capacity or other, it plays no role in the decision of the larger denominations to prohibit the ordination of women.

Albion said:

Well, that wasn't my point. Pastors and Preachers are not identical in meaning, and most of the discussion on this thread and on others similar to it has dealt with women as pastors, ordained ministers, i.e. clergy.

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I know.
But the only 2 Scriptures quoted in the OP were about women being silent; suggesting that the emphasis was on preaching.
They offered no Scriptures, nor discussion, about women in leadership roles.

Albion said:

For example, a lot of time has been spent on women speaking in the church and/or being submissive to their husbands, but while that affects the willingness of some churches as regards women preaching in some capacity or other, it plays no role in the decision of the larger denominations to prohibit the ordination of women.

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There have been many threads on this subject in my 15+ years on this forum - and the majority of the time, the main Scripture offered to show that women shouldn't be ordained is 1 Timothy 2:12.
Some say that women can't preach in church, because this Scripture says that they can't even speak. Others say, yes they can speak, because 1 Corinthians 11 allows them to prophesy, but they cannot teach or have authority over men; and as preaching involves both, they cannot do it. This verse is interpreted in different ways.

As you correctly say, being ordained involves more than preaching; yet no one has ever discussed whether visiting the sick, taking funerals, weddings and baptisms and presiding at communion - or even being in leadership roles in general - are allowed for women. If I mention Deborah, for example, the response is often, "yes, but she wasn't 'in church'."

As I've said before, in fact, Scripture does not even teach the necessity of having ordained clergy presiding at communion - and visiting the sick etc is allowed by, even commanded to, everyone.

Strong in Him said:

Of course I accept the Scripture.
I don't accept the way that you interpret and apply it - there is a big difference.
Somebody made a garment for Aaron to wear. So?
You said earlier;



You've been talking about accepting these things spiritually, not physically - which is why you've complained that I think a covering is a literal hat.
Now you're saying that Aaron had a covering because someone made a literal robe for him to wear. So what?
You can't say, one minute, that these are spiritual things and the Bible is talking spiritually, and then quote where he had a physical covering that was actually made for him.

And again, you're jumping around Scripture, taking verses out of context and trying to make them fit your scenario.

Your interpretation of the Scriptures is between you and God; I'm done.

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I understand that you are done but I just want to say that the garment that was made for Aaron was not an ordinary garment. It was a Holy garment made specifically for him. Who made it Holy. It wasn't the one who made it. It was God. Maybe if Mariam would have worn a hat she would not have gotten leprosy. Everything that happened in the old testament points to the new. I know the scriptures do not say that. God bless you.

Strong in Him said:

I know.
But the only 2 Scriptures quoted in the OP were about women being silent; suggesting that the emphasis was on preaching.
They offered no Scriptures, nor discussion, about women in leadership roles.

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I know.

There have been many threads on this subject in my 15+ years on this forum - and the majority of the time, the main Scripture offered to show that women shouldn't be ordained is 1 Timothy 2:12.

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That's probably right.

Some say that women can't preach in church, because this Scripture says that they can't even speak. Others say, yes they can speak, because 1 Corinthians 11 allows them to prophesy, but they cannot teach or have authority over men; and as preaching involves both, they cannot do it. This verse is interpreted in different ways.

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Agreed.

As you correctly say, being ordained involves more than preaching; yet no one has ever discussed whether visiting the sick, taking funerals, weddings and baptisms and presiding at communion - or even being in leadership roles in general - are allowed for women. If I mention Deborah, for example, the response is often, "yes, but she wasn't 'in church'."

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I don't remember that particular reaction to the mention of Deborah myself, but I don't doubt you when you say it.

So here's just what I meant...we've been entertaining this side issue for too long a time, even doing so on a thread that uses "Pastor" in its title. Maybe it's time to say finis to this waste of time, noting that its only a small percentage of Protestants who belong to churches that rule women out of any leadership role on the basis of the "keep silent" verse. Then we could turn to discussing what you referred to above ("visiting the sick, taking funerals, weddings and baptisms and presiding at communion"). I'd say "yes" to some of those but "no" to others mentioned, and who knows what other views are out there?

I think some of those other things (visiting the sick, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, praying for those in need) are absolutely vital and honestly I wonder if the reason there’s so much emphasis on women being preachers is because there’s so much emphasis on preaching. Nobody would deny that women can be saints or martyrs.

Kilk1 said:

Hello! Does the Bible forbid women from being preachers or pastors?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

1 Timothy 2:11-12: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

Thanks,
Kilk

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"as the law also says..." I have never seen THAT LAW in the Bible, have you? I believe it was a man-made law back then.

Kilk1 said:

Hello! Does the Bible forbid women from being preachers or pastors?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

1 Timothy 2:11-12: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

Thanks,
Kilk

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Mat.23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.

kathegetes = a guide, i.e. (figuratively) a teacher:--master.

John.10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

The Narrow Way said:

"as the law also says..." I have never seen THAT LAW in the Bible, have you? I believe it was a man-made law back then.

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Submit to your husbands, is what's meant here.

Genesis 3:17 And to the woman He said, I will greatly multiply thy pains and thy groanings; in pain thou shalt bring forth children, and thy submission shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.LXX

Kinda confusing, though, right? Why isn't Eve forgiven by Paul?

Kilk1 said:

Hello! Does the Bible forbid women from being preachers or pastors?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

1 Timothy 2:11-12: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

Thanks,
Kilk

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Surely social norms must come into it. I mean back in the time when Paul wrote this the culture was that women were seen as not being dominant in society not just religiously but in most matters of advice , politics and speaking on important matters. But today it is completely different. Saying women should be silent back then may have been accepted because there was no womens liberation or reason for women to speak out about being oppressed. Possibly men had not oppressed women as they did in the 20th century.

So surely in that context to say to todays women that they must be quiet and listen and not have any word or position in the church will have far more repurcussions and reaction from women today. I think there is more to it then power positions and gender roles.