Who is in charge here?

Davy

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Spiritual is literal. His kingdom isn’t in its fullness yet. He gave us parables to describe that it stars small and then grows and grows. Trying to shoehorn in an Antichrist™ that scripture never talks about is a distraction from what Christ has commanded us to do.

I will admit that the Genesis 49:10 prophecy is still true today, and that involves David's throne on earth. So does Ezekiel 21:25-27. But Jesus has not yet come to sit upon it today, which is when He will reign over all peoples and nations on earth...

Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

KJV

That has yet to happen. The Apostles are not sitting upon thrones in the holy land today judging the 12 tribes of Israel. The majority... of the children of Israel are still SCATTERED in the countries today!

Acts 3:19-21
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

20 And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

KJV

That Acts 3:21 verse aligns with the timing of the above Matthew 19:28 verse about Christ's future Kingdom to come at His return. Acts 3:21 hard links what God gave through His OT prophets about that future time, so one has to deny a whole lot... of God's written Word to push a 'kingdom now' theory.
 
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Chi.C

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It is a literal interpretation. But it’s because not only does the context support it, there are the words of Jesus elsewhere, and OT prophecies to back it up.
There are many verse which support the Authority of Christ, I agree. But there are none which states the "time constraint" by which all this is to be done. In fact consider
1 Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

Like D-Day, it took years to plan and prepare, but one day to execute. Jesus is going to storm the gates of death and all due consideration are given to those who want to be saved. Right now I still see a tyrant of the satanic kind in charge. King Jesus has not arrived!
 
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PaulCyp1

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Anyone who reads the Bible knows that Jesus Christ founded one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". He clearly revealed His will that His one Church would be the sole source of His truth on Earth. He knew that truth can exist only in unity, since truth cannot contradict truth, and contradicting beliefs/teachings/denominations therefore necessary mean false beliefs.
 
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Hammster

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There are many verse which support the Authority of Christ, I agree. But there are none which states the "time constraint" by which all this is to be done. In fact consider
1 Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

Like D-Day, it took years to plan and prepare, but one day to execute. Jesus is going to storm the gates of death and all due consideration are given to those who want to be saved. Right now I still see a tyrant of the satanic kind in charge. King Jesus has not arrived!
The Day of the Lord happened in 70 AD.
 
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Hammster

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Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

KJV

That has yet to happen. The Apostles are not sitting upon thrones in the holy land today judging the 12 tribes of Israel. The majority... of the children of Israel are still SCATTERED in the countries today!
Let’s take a look.

Here’s the parallel passage in Luke:


“You are those who have stood by Me in My trials; and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I grant you that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
— Luke 22:28-30

Jesus grants them a kingdom. It’s a present tense verb. It’s not future.

And their preaching did bring judgement upon the twelve tribes. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple proves that.
 
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Chi.C

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The Day of the Lord happened in 70 AD.
I assume that you are a full preterist. I do not prescribe to this belief. From Wiki (keyword preterism) "Historically, preterists and non-preterists have generally agreed that the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar (1554–1613) wrote the first systematic preterist exposition of prophecy Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalypsi (published in 1614) during the Counter-Reformation."
A single question - Can the holy spirit come from the Counter-Reformation?

The notion that all prophecies were fulfilled by 70 AD is hard to believe. Historically there seems to be little or no correlation.
Matthew 24:34 is misunderstood to support this claim. It is in dissonance with the context of the chapter (signs of the Second Coming) and in conflict with Matthew 24:36. Once again literal vs literary.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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It’s not only what you see with your eyes.

That's what I was saying.

The visible kingdom happened during the previous covenant and it fell.

There's a mirror of that today, but that's mostly because of the way the ancient church applied the anathemas and duplicated the end of Deuteronomy, instead of the sermon on the mount.

So it is questionable if the visible church is even representative, but on the foundation it is written that God knows those who are His.
 
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Hanging by a Thread

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The question of Jesus as king, whether it is now or later, has come up. So I have a question.

If Jesus said that all authority in heaven and on earth was given to Him, who is in charge here?
If Jesus said that all authority in heaven and on earth was given to Him, wouldn't that mean that he's in charge, or no? You're getting a lot of responses here so apparently I'm missing something in that sentence.
 
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Mark Quayle

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During the millennial reign, Satan will be locked up.
My point is that regardless of anything else that may be true, God is necessarily in charge. He is First Cause, and so caused everything else; whether he does it directly or indirectly does not change that fact. Satan can have a certain authority for a time --that does not mean that God is not in charge. No matter Satan's title, God is Sovereign over that.
 
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Hammster

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I assume that you are a full preterist. I do not prescribe to this belief. From Wiki (keyword preterism) "Historically, preterists and non-preterists have generally agreed that the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar (1554–1613) wrote the first systematic preterist exposition of prophecy Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalypsi (published in 1614) during the Counter-Reformation."
A single question - Can the holy spirit come from the Counter-Reformation?

The notion that all prophecies were fulfilled by 70 AD is hard to believe. Historically there seems to be little or no correlation.
Matthew 24:34 is misunderstood to support this claim. It is in dissonance with the context of the chapter (signs of the Second Coming) and in conflict with Matthew 24:36. Once again literal vs literary.
I’m not a full preterist.
 
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Hammster

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If Jesus said that all authority in heaven and on earth was given to Him, wouldn't that mean that he's in charge, or no? You're getting a lot of responses here so apparently I'm missing something in that sentence.
I don’t think you are the one missing something. :)
 
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Guojing

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My point is that regardless of anything else that may be true, God is necessarily in charge. He is First Cause, and so caused everything else; whether he does it directly or indirectly does not change that fact. Satan can have a certain authority for a time --that does not mean that God is not in charge. No matter Satan's title, God is Sovereign over that.

Are you saying you think there is no difference between what will happen during the millennial reign and now?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Are you saying you think there is no difference between what will happen during the millennial reign and now?
Of course not! There are differences between now and five minutes from now!
 
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Guojing

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The Day of the Lord happened in 70 AD.

I see that you believe in Amillennialism, no wonder you hold that doctrine.

760px-Millennial_views.svg.png
 
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bbbbbbb

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No. I have not yet come to a firm conclusion, though I tend to something more literal than Amillennialism.

The Achilles heel of Reformed theology is eschatology. John Calvin failed to include a commentary on the Revelation in his other commentaries, leaving the door wide open to later Reformed theologians in the area of eschatology. The high point of American Reformed influence came in the mid-nineteenth century when Post Millennialism was wildly popular and was proclaimed from the Reformed pulpits and sung lustily in hymns such as "Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory of the Coming of the Lord." The concept was quite easy - eliminate the evil of slavery from America and the Millennium would commence.

Unfortunately, despite the gruesome Civil War the Millennium failed to develop. Instead there were major financial panics in 1873 and 1893 with subsequent economic depressions.

Not to be dissuaded, Reformed theologians regrouped and determined that the issue preventing the Millennium was the production and consumption of alcohol. When America achieved righteousness in eliminating alcohol, then the Millennium was bound to begin. In fact, one of the leading Reformed publications at the beginning of the twentieth century was called "The Christian Century" for that reason. So what happened? The Prohibition of alcohol was enshrined in the American constitution. Then came World War I with its disastrous consequences. Then came the Roaring Twenties with loosening morality. Then came the Great Depression and the repeal of Prohibition. Then came World War II. By then Reformed eschatology (specifically Post-Millennialism) was in complete tatters and most Reformed denominations had completely abandoned eschatology entirely, limiting themselves to rants against Dispensationalism.

Today, a few Reformed folks are attempting to develop some form of alternate eschatology to Dispensationalism. Preterism, in various forms, has been attempted and has generally been rejected. That pretty much leaves amillennialism in a very generic form, which isn't much to hang your hat on.
 
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