The Creation Story: Literal, or Figurative?

DamianWarS said:

We know well in history authorized versions are not always the factual version.

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Perhaps that is why they call the King James Bible the "authorized" version. - lol --- (honorable, not factual)

DamianWarS said:

... I'm not trying to remove this idea but rather promote that the goal of the account is far superior, literal or not. the conversation of it being literal or not seems the most unimportant part of the account to me.

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I agree in a general sense. But whether the account is CONSIDERED literal, or figurative is VERY important in THIS culture, in which we are having the discussion.

However, I really appreciate your point of view. Thanks. (even though I blasted you for it. - lol)

Dkh587 said:

I’m starting to think some of them don’t actually know what the Bible says… it makes me wonder..

thanks for sharing.

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Yes, I have identified a few items that need to be addressed. I'm having trouble getting a straight answer. Here they are.

Two problems yet exist:
1) No consensus among those with a figurative view as to what the creation account means.
2) No support from other biblical authors, or the rest of Moses writing for that matter. (the Sabbath commandment being a prime example)

Shrewd Manager said:

Sorry Steve, but I'm going to dig the heels in here.

It's a question of faith. A person can't believe in Darwinian evolution without compromising Biblical teaching. Either we're created or we're an accident from the soup. Same with cosmology, either God created it flat, motionless and enclosed (as per scripture), or as a wacky spacebaal.

Of course, we're reconciliationists, so ultimately everyone will be saved, but it's (in part) the unbelief of Darwinism and heliocentrism that they need saving from.

Does that sound reasonable to you, and if not, could it have something to do with your reluctance to part ways with modern cosmology?

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I was glad to include this perspective of the creation account from you and @tryphena rose when it came up. I hadn't really considered that angle as part of the whole landscape here.

I'll have to concede that I haven't really thought through what the biblical view for a spherical globe might be. I guess I have trusted science with what I have learned to date.

The flat earth view, which I am not yet comfortable calling "the biblical view" (since there may be an alternative biblical spherical globe view), was news to me. And you may be the first person I have heard call it "the" biblical view.

So, you'll have to forgive me if I'm not ready to dive in head first. I do, however want to understand it. Whether I end up accepting it is yet to be seen. I'm not convinced yet, and may never be. Not sure.

Shrewd Manager said:

Well, do you experience rotation and orbit? Do you see curvature? You see the sun, moon and stars moving and assume the earth is moving. But you feel no movement, see no curve. When you see a bird on the wing, do you presume it's stationary and you're moving? Of course not.

All our daily empirical experience is of a flat (with features) fixed earth, is it not?

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There is something to that.

However, I think we are dealing with an issue of scale here. Like a microscopic animal that lives on the surface of a very slow moving bowling ball. Assuming the earth is a globe form. Their perspective would probably be a flat surface. And even more so if the bowling ball had a central gravitational pull.

And yes, as a side note, I think I can feel the earth moving. But then I have vertigo, so... not sure if it is real or imagined. - lol

Basically, if I can't see the horizon, everything seems to be in motion. Rather unsettling for me. Changing a light bulb overhead is a big deal. Especially up on a stool. I have my wife steady me, lest I fall and hurt myself. It's an inner ear balance issue. My body jettisons my balance sensors on a regular basis. My brain has to re-calibrate my balance whenever this happens. TMI, I know. - lol

MMXX said:

When I became aware of current flat earth belief a few years ago, I watched a video that gave a good presentation of how it works. But I quite honestly didn't care much. It didn't change anything for me. I didn't care if the earth was round or flat. I have the same feelings about the earth and creation either way.

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On a humorous note, The Message Bible translation/Paraphrase has this to say. (boo)

Psalm 17:10-14 The Message
Their hearts are hard as nails, their mouths blast hot air. They are after me, nipping my heels, determined to bring me down, Lions ready to rip me apart, young lions poised to pounce. Up, God: beard them! break them! By your sword, free me from their clutches; Barehanded, God, break these mortals, these flat-earth people who can’t think beyond today. I’d like to see their bellies swollen with famine food, The weeds they’ve sown harvested and baked into famine bread, With second helpings for their children and crusts for their babies to chew on.

Shrewd Manager said:

Also it helps with our understanding of scripture and apologetics, we no longer need to make excuses for the Biblical worldview.

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Could you solidify the relationship for us? I can see how some of the elements (no pun intended) of the flat earth model apply, but maybe there is more to it than I recognized.

Jamsie said:

Genesis 2:7 clearly shows mediate creation of man...

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Seems immediate to me. Though rather figurative in process. Formed from dust?

Genesis 2:7 NIV
Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Shrewd Manager said:

The official Catholic position, as I understand it, and notwithstanding their recent apology to Galileo, is ball earth geocentrism. I think most Orthodox are the same, relying on Ptolemaic model. Protestants just go with the flow of modernity.

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Wasn't it credited to Galileo for "discovering" the earth was "round"? Was flat earth the standard view before that? (seems so) Along with fears of sailing ships off the edge. - lol

Jamsie said:

As was noted Genesis 1 needs to be approached with the humble acknowledgement of our finite limitations and too the limitations of the details offered. When were the "heavens and the earth" created... there is no statement that it was Day 1, so if there was an earth what was in the heavens? What was the light on the first day? How does one defend the sixth day with all the activities involved? Should we not give due consideration to Romans 1:20 before jettisoning the discoveries of science? The simple fact is that Genesis perhaps imposes more questions than answers except for "In the Beginning God...".

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Well, even our "finite limitations" can read the first sentence in the Bible and understand that, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." That's "heavens", not heaven. (singular)

And you would cite Romans chapter one to defend the science that denies the creator God? Wow.

I found this collection online, which I edited down a bit. Still pretty long. The page title is: Spoke The World Into Existence. Here's the link What Does the Bible Say About Spoke The World Into Existence?

Psalm 33:6 ESV
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.

Romans 4:17 ESV
As it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

Hebrews 11:3 ESV
By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV
Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Romans 1:20 ESV
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Acts 14:15 ESV
“Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them.

Isaiah 48:13 ESV
My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

Isaiah 40:26 ESV
Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.

Exodus 20:11 ESV
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Genesis 2:7 ESV
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Revelation 4:11 ESV
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”

Hebrews 6:12 ESV
So that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Colossians 1:16 ESV
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

John 1:3 ESV
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Mark 11:22 ESV
And Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God.

Matthew 19:26 ESV
But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Jeremiah 10:11 ESV
Thus shall you say to them: “The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens.”

Psalm 90:2 ESV
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

Psalm 33:9 ESV
For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

Psalm 19:1 ESV
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.

Deuteronomy 33:27 ESV
The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, Destroy.

2 Timothy 3:16 ESV
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Romans 1:25 ESV
Because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

Matthew 26:39 ESV
And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”

Matthew 21:22 ESV
And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”

Matthew 6:10 ESV
Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Lamentations 3:37-50 ESV
Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come? Why should a living man complain, a man, about the punishment of his sins? Let us test and examine our ways, and return to the Lord! Let us lift up our hearts and hands to God in heaven: ...

Isaiah 53:1-12 ESV
Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. ...

Isaiah 45:18 ESV
For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the Lord, and there is no other.

Shrewd Manager said:

The official Catholic position, as I understand it, and notwithstanding their recent apology to Galileo, is ball earth geocentrism. I think most Orthodox are the same, relying on Ptolemaic model. Protestants just go with the flow of modernity.

But there's no question that it was uncontroversial doctrine in Jesus' day that the Bible teaches a flat, fixed earth enclosed by a solid firmament. That the sea of glass and fire that John finds himself standing upon when he ascends in the spirit to the throne room in Revelation 15:2. The molten looking glass we're told about in Job 37:18. It's really cool, the Biblical earth, God's creation.

Despite the hue and cry from the 'enlightened Christian' quarters, the only Bible verse remotely supporting a ball earth put forward is Isa 40:22:

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

A circle is not necessarily a ball. Plus it's tough to stretch a tent around a ball, wouldn't you say? Also no fun using a ball as a footrest, unless perhaps the divine abs need a workout.

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What do you make of the crescent moon?
The shadow on it indicates a spherical form, unless I am missing something here.

Jamsie said:

I thought I wrote "heavens", so when were the "heavens" created, along with the earth?

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In the creation week with everything else.

Saint Steven said:

What do you make of the crescent moon?
The shadow on it indicates a spherical form, unless I am missing something here.

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@Shrewd Manager This scripture seems to have more impact in a spherical model than a flat model.

And doesn't the flat earth model turn earth into The Truman Show? - lol

Psalm 103:11-12
For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.