Why do some feel a tug towards God and others nothing?

bling said:

We agree that all elect will be saved, but differ on how one becomes the elect.

If their “election” is not the result of their humbly accept pure undeserved charity as charity while living on earth, then there is no reason for people to spend time on earth.

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How we became elect, exactly.

If their election IS a result of their humbly accepting pure undeserved charity as charity while living on earth, then how were they elected before the foundation of the world? Were they elected to be later elected? <confused>

The reason these sheep gone astray into sin spend time on earth is NOT to become elect, ie promised salvation, but to have the election promise of salvation fulfilled in them! They come here to experience death and suffering. They come here into Adam's death so the one death of Christ can be applied once for all under the promise. They come here to see by first hand experience the overwhelming evil of the reprobate whose leavening in evil is not even yet full, so they can leave their reprobate friends and families in their heart, repudiate them as eternally unrepentant and accept GOD's verdict of their banishment to the outer darkness as loving, just and righteous.

bling said:

Show me all your New Testament references you use to sport the idea: “Human preexisted their earthly birth?”

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You ask for 5 years of solid study as if it were one or two things...it is not. Some verses are a mere mention, some need a full essay to understand, sigh.

I guarantee you do not yet understand the theology enough to see any pce in any of the verses in my list, so used are we to the created on earth theory.

It is over 100 verses or verse clusters long so I will send it to you by PM....

Strong in Him said:

Good wheat = good wheat or otherwise the man deliberately planted bad wheat in his field.

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Good cannot mean righteous as you seem to imply...they are subject to the judgement that only sinners are subject to, not any holy person. Therefore their goodness must refer to their status as GOD's legitimate children and not to the reprobate at all.

Yes, HE deliberately planted elect sinners, the people of the kingdom, (but not bad sinners, ie those people of the evil one which the explanation of the parable says are planted by the devil) into HIS field so they could be redeemed and returned to HIM. Their repentance was helped by their having to live with the weeds, the non-elect reprobate, until the harvest.

To repudiate that HE deliberately planted bad wheat in his field is to also repudiate that every person in the world is born a sinner...there are no righteous seeds of either kind.

TedT said:

Yes, HE deliberately planted elect sinners, the people of the kingdom, (but not bad sinners, ie those people of the evil one which the explanation of the parable says are planted by the devil) into HIS field so they could be redeemed and returned to HIM.

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By HE it seems that you mean God.
God deliberately planted bad seed - sinners - in his field so that he could save them?

Have you read the parable?
The Kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed GOOD seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, Matthew 13:24-25.
Who is the man who sowed good seed?
It was the enemy, not the sower of good seed, who sowed the weeds - who is this?

TedT said:

Their repentance was helped by their having to live with the weeds, the non-elect reprobate, until the harvest.

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That's your interpretation; the passage says nothing about the good seed influencing the weeds, nor being changed by them.
Any of those who heard Jesus giving this parable, who were maybe farmers, gardeners or knew about sowing seed, would have known what good seed was, and what weeds, tares, were. They would also have known that at a certain stage of growing it is virtually impossible to distinguish a wheat from a tare - you have to wait until both are fully grown and then it is more obvious. So when both were fully grown and all cut down at the harvest, then it was possible to separate them and burn the tares.

The Kingdom of heaven is like this: God sows good seed, his enemy comes along and sows weeds/tares, which often look very much like good seed when they are growing. And that fact should be obvious today. Non Christians, atheists, Sunday Christians and others CAN look very much like Christians from the outside - church twice a year, or maybe even once a week, and the doers of good deeds. You don't have to be a Christian to do charitable works and be kind to others. I don't know that I would say that the devil plants Sunday Christians or unbelievers in churches, but I'm sure they're there - my last church had a number of people who believed you could get to heaven by doing good deeds.
At the harvest, however - death/final judgement/Christ's return - the 2 will be separated. It's the age long question; why does God let evil continue/grow in the world? Why not get rid of wicked people as soon as possible?

TedT said:

To repudiate that HE deliberately planted bad wheat in his field is to also repudiate that every person in the world is born a sinner...there are no righteous seeds of either kind.

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Nonsense.
To claim that a good, loving, merciful, compassionate God who is light and love deliberately planted evil - wars, famines, the holocaust etc etc - is a contradiction.

Andrewn said:

In your view, is "the person who is still not regenerated" one of the elect or the non-elect? If God works on the non-elect, then how is this different from Arminianism?

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If that's a quote from something I said, then I probably meant one of the elect, in whom the Spirit of God had not yet taken up residence.

bling said:

Are you suggesting a Spiritual heavenly being is choosing between God being true and God being false?

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I'm confused: does spiritual mean physical but holy or without a body and no necessarily holy? Same with heavenly - does it refer to a place or a moral status or a relationship with GOD?

bling said:

You said this Spiritual being (us before birth) knows God and Jesus, so what alternative is there since there are no other “gods” running around?

Now you seem to be saying these Spiritual beings have no prove for God, since that would be prove of Hell?

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Obviously I never said that or you misread or misremembered or I used know without proof of who they said they were. I can know you by having met you and you can claim to be president but if I don't know if that is true then I don't know all about you.

bling said:

What is the need for our time on earth?

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Again, I contend that the sins of the elect forced the postponement of the judgment day and GOD chose the earth to be a prison planet by flinging Satan and his angels down to the earth to sequester the good people of heaven from Satan's evil.

Then HE also chose for the sinful elect to live together with the reprobate demons until the time of the harvest when all the elect have been fully sanctified and accept the judgement as righteous, loving and just.

bling said:

Even a slave can have limited free will to make mental choices and those choices do not have to be honorable, righteous, glorious, holy, noble or worthy of anything.

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Yes, the ability to make choices does not connote a free will like is so often argued because a will enslaved to sin and addicted to evil still makes choices, some even helpful and somewhat loving, just not in accord with GOD or faith.

Strong in Him said:

The Kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed GOOD seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, Matthew 13:24-25.
Who is the man who sowed good seed?
It was the enemy, not the sower of good seed, who sowed the weeds - who is this?

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This is answered in the explanation of the parable in Matt 13:36-39...it is the devil who sows the people of the evil one called the weeds into the world and it is the Son of Man, Christ, who sows the people of the kingdom called the good seed, ie the elect under the promise of salvation, into the world.

Everyone who comes into the world is a sinner except Christ so if you use bad to mean unrighteous, good still can't mean righteous.

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

This is true whether they are in a Christian family where both parents are religious and then you have the even more bizarre yet wonderful situation where both parents are staunch atheists and the child knows their parents would be upset if they end up believing in God yet the pull towards God is so strong they end up converting. Is this simply because God wants certain people with him and the rest he wants nothing to do with? I personally don't have a problem with this because God wants who he wants. Some might say well why would he create me if he wanted nothing to do with me? Thats a good question and a very deep one and I don't know how to answer that but I know there is an answer for it and it will be answered one day.

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“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Strong in Him said:

That's your interpretation; the passage says nothing about the good seed influencing the weeds, nor being changed by them.

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Of course it is. I spent quite some time years ago wondering why the elect had to live together with the Satanic...why did we not get to live on earth and the Satanic on Venus for instance since Venus is much more like hell than earth.

Then I added in the verse, Romans 8:28 ...And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. and realized our having to live with the reprobate weeds was to our good, a necessity even. Since the sinful elect are here to become like Christ, holy in every way, it suggests that they are to be a bad example to us so we may repent the faster...

If you have a better idea, I'd love to hear it.

Strong in Him said:

Nonsense.
To claim that a good, loving, merciful, compassionate God who is light and love deliberately planted evil - wars, famines, the holocaust etc etc - is a contradiction.

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HE planted only those people who were sinful enough at heart to create wars, famines, the holocaust etc etc - ONLY SINNERS ARE SOWN INTO THE WORLD! None are righteous, all sin against their fellow man and all suffer for their sins.

Strong in Him said:

At the harvest, however - death/final judgement/Christ's return - the 2 will be separated. It's the age long question; why does God let evil continue/grow in the world? Why not get rid of wicked people as soon as possible?

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Because if the judgement is called too soon, before the mature holiness of the good seed, the sinful elect may be ripped up and destroyed with the evil ones against GOD's promise of their salvation: Matt 13:28 So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 ‘NO!’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.

TedT said:

Not if that creature is a pure spirit in a non-physical place with NO influences, no dna, no family or cultural values, no past experience that can or do force or coerce him to choose any certain way.

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The fact of God's omniscience yet creating that spirit, is in itself cause. But, more to the point, the notion that such a spirit in a non-physical place, experiences no influences and no values to me is not only more than one can know, but seems awfully presumptuous.

TedT said:

An influence is a 'force' leading the chooser to go a certain way such as the ideas of heaven and hell... but since we now that neither heaven absolutely attracted all and hell neither absolutely repelled all they are considered to be influences ie, forces that can be considered then accepted or discarded.

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The fact of something being a force for good or evil doesn't imply that the chooser was forced. That is letting words push someone around. I don't say God 'forces' anyone, anyway, even in changing the nature of their will without first getting their permission.

TedT said:

But a coercion is absolutely compelling, forcing someone to choose to go a certain way. This could be by an inbred created compulsion to follow GOD as so many people wish we all had, or by showing us the proof of HIS deity and the existence of heaven and hell, (the proof the reprobate demand before they will accept HIM), as no one would choose hell if they knew the truth.

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Coercion, to me, is what God did to Jonah. I have no problem with it. But Jonah still decided.

TedT said:

[Aside:
This is why I reject the idea that Satan was GOD's right hand man, the highest angel who knew HIM intimately yet desired to take HIS place. No creature that has seen GOD's glory and power could ever mistake himself as godly...this idea is just too bogus to countenance. The verses they use to refer to Satanic pride are obviously a reference to a human with NO understanding of the truth about GOD, certainly not the highest angel!]

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I never got the idea he was God's 'right hand man'. Maybe the most glorious or beautiful, maybe even the most powerful angel, but God set things precisely as he did concerning Lucifer, for a reason, which came to fruition.
The same thing happened in the Garden with Adam.

TedT said:

So I do think we had a lot of influences and time to consider all the points of view about the gospel before we put our faith in it or rejected it as a lie. GOD created us with a free will and inquisitive minds then proclaimed the gospel to us - all the cause we needed to be impelled to respond to HIS call for us to put our faith in HIM as our creator GOD and in the Son as our only saviour from all sin.

So you can see why I think that relating our free will to beng uncaused is fraught with wasted time and debate and of no use to a proper definition of a free will (being a self fulfilling hunt for heffalumps around the wozzle bush). Only the lack of a coercion (a compulsion that we must choose one option or the other) or constraint (a complete negation of the ability to choose one option or the other) can describe our wills as free. The Fathers led us astray into sophistry...

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Why do you insist our response then, after all that influence and thinking, was not compelled in some way? And what makes you think all that influence and thinking was natural, and not the work of the Spirit in one? Is it because you link that 'moment of change' with the moment of willed emotional resignation?

John Mullally said:

You relate "The Spirit of God does as it will" to regeneration being strictly God's decision for some and not others. And I know Reformed folk use John 3:8 as support to that - but its not obvious and I don't see it when I read commentaries at John 3:8 Commentaries: "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.". On the other hand, where the Gospel concerning salvation is presented in the NT, those addressed are called to an action (believing, repenting, baptism, confessing) - which puts the responsibility on the hearer. Additionally, 2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing for any to perish - so if it is strictly up to God no one would perish.

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My use of Jesus conversation with Nicodemus is not standard Reformed fare, I don't think. Don't blame them for my incompetence, lol.

The fact that those addressed are called to an action (believing, repenting, baptism, confessing) does not imply that God is not the one doing it in them. Their 'cooperation' as some synergists cleverly call it, does not add to the total effort. Who can add to what God does? What the Elect do as obedient is a genuine result of the work of God, the indwelling Spirit.

John Mullally said:

The only place where I see the phrase "as the Spirit wills" in the NT is 1 Cor 12:11 where Paul talks about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit - which the Reformed say have ceased - even though the termination conditions of Eph 4:13 have not been met.

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Generally, the Spirit is said to do the will of the Father and of the Son, in its subservient station. That doesn't mean that the Spirit doesn't will to do, nor that it does nothing without orders, as though it was not itself also God. The Father and the Son don't operate independent of the Spirit, either.

Not all Reformed say the gifts have ceased, btw. It may be standard fare, but not necessary doctrine of the Reformed. I hear there are several Reformed Charismatic Churches. I myself believe God can still do whatever he pleases, but yeah I am very skeptical of displays I have witnessed and the teachings I have heard about the gifts --they are lists and meanings extrapolated from incomplete references in the NT, full of human reasoning. I think God's use of the gifts is far less formal than the claims of humans who love flashy spectacular easily identified stuff.

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

So you're saying no one would choose God(be saved) unless he willed them to?

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Well below are 16 biblical reasons man left to his own wants nothing to do with God.

1)man has a heart that is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
6)man is a sinner (Romans 5:12)
7)man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
8)man by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
9)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
10)man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
11)man is sinful in the womb (Psalms 51:5)
12)man is conceived in sin(Psalms 51:5)
13)man cannot do good(Romans 3:10)
14) man hates God (Romans 8:7)
15)man loves sin (1 John 3:19)
16)man heart is corrupt and his thoughts are and evil continually (Genesis 6:5)

TedT said:

Matt 13:36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” 37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

The good people are the sinful elect, not righteous, ie, all are sinners, none are righteous, but they are Christ's, His sheep, GOD's legitimate children.

This is the only verse I know of that tells us about the devil's involvement in our being sowed, ie planted, not created, in the world of men. When I first read it I went to my pastor in agitation and listened (and accepted) his rather wishy washy explanation but years later when I was led to pre-conception existence theology, I saw the obvious and clear implication of this most ignored verse in all the bible.

Obviously this explains that GOD has given the devil the power to sow his own into the world of men as supreme bad examples to help bring HIS sinful elect to righteousness as the parable says. We know they come from Sheol and then return there from Ps 9:17
English Standard Version
The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.

Berean Study Bible
The wicked will return to Sheol—all the nations who forget God.

You don't get to return to place you have not come from...which gives the word sowing even added emphasis.

The King James Bible has given us a blatant attempt to force us to favour their created on earth theory by rendering return as shall be turned into, an eisegetical bit of chicanery as any cult translator has ever given us:
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Oh, do you think I will then accept the orthodox version? What other parable teaches against this interpretation that only conflicts with orthodox dogma, not any other verse in the bible?

Any anyway. verses 36-39 are NOT in the parable! They explain the parable at face value, no metaphor, no hyperbole! “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” No explanation of a metaphor will repeat the metaphor nor introduce new metaphors or it is no explanation at all. Why is this, our Lord's words telling us the truth, the way of reality, so ignored and passed over as meaninglesness exaggeration? Because orthodoxy is totally committed to our being created on earth as new sinners and can't countenance that a verse might be teaching different.

Now why did it get written so this explanation is not part of the parable? Perhaps because He knew the stumbling block it would be and He gave His good seed this simple sign to believe His words without quibble...

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The “field” is the world and Jesus sowed good seed into the world, but we learn from scripture Jesus is not doing that from heaven, but from Jerusalem:

John 17:18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.

Jesus sending them into the world is sowing them into the world. You are the one coming up with this idea about God doing this sowing from heaven and not from the physical earth like Jesus said He did.

Realizing how Jesus sowed good seed (His followers) into the world from Jerusalem, helps explain how satan and his followers in Jerusalem sent (sowed) Judaizing teachers to the kingdom people (churches throughout the world) with a false message.

The word of God is not some book, message, or theology, but it is Christ Himself living in and through people. So, sowing the word is sending people out.

Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

We can certainly understand satan sending his followers on earth out into the world with a false message, but to think God cannot control satan’s heavenly actions gives way to much power to satan and shows a weak God.

Why would Jesus sow sinful people into the world and why would God allow satan to sow bad people into the world?

TedT said:

You ask for 5 years of solid study as if it were one or two things...it is not. Some verses are a mere mention, some need a full essay to understand, sigh.

I guarantee you do not yet understand the theology enough to see any pce in any of the verses in my list, so used are we to the created on earth theory.

It is over 100 verses or verse clusters long so I will send it to you by PM....

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All the passages I know of can be explained with people coming into existence at conception.

TedT said:

Obviously I never said that or you misread or misremembered or I used know without proof of who they said they were. I can know you by having met you and you can claim to be president but if I don't know if that is true then I don't know all about you.

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What you are now telling me: These beings did not "know God and Christ", but some believed they might existed? These beings knew they exist, so what possible way could they think they came into existence without some greater power? Here on earth you could believe you are just the result of your parent's actions, but did these beings have parents?