The Creation Story: Literal, or Figurative?

Saint Steven

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... The six days are rooted in commands/fiats not confined to consecutive days or time frames...
Rats...
I was about to award you a WINNER rating until I got to your last sentence.

Why would you make the observations that you have made thus far and then drop the ball on the time aspect? Does each day not say and sundown and sunrise was the xxx day? How is that not a time frame?

I suppose you will say that some things weren't completed on the xxx day because they were only set in motion. Okay, the shrubbery was planted and takes time to grow. Fine. But I would consider the work of creation for that day to be done.

What is your point about time frames in the quote above?
 
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Saint Steven

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the meaning of the text is important. are you suggesting there is nothing more to it than the surface words? I'm saying that deeper meaning is more important.
This is what you wrote (quote below), that I was asking you to qualify. I suppose you will say it is honor based rather than factually based.

DamianWarS said:
The account is used to establish these sorts of systems and it is important because God says it is important not because it is literal (the former trumps the latter).
 
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Saint Steven

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consesus is not needed to study a text deeper. without or without the literal view the deeper meanings are still there. these meanings have greater benifit and are more productive to examine.

citation from other biblical authors demands the account to be ordained by God but it does not demand the account to be litteral.
Nonsense!
Your non-replies do not equate to a meaningful discussion. My points stand unchallenged.

Saint Steven said:
Two problems yet exist:
1) No consensus among those with a figurative view as to what the creation account means.
2) No support from other biblical authors, or the rest of Moses writing for that matter. (the Sabbath commandment being a prime example)
 
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Jamsie

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Rats...
I was about to award you a WINNER rating until I got to your last sentence.

Why would you make the observations that you have made thus far and then drop the ball on the time aspect? Does each day not say and sundown and sunrise was the xxx day? How is that not a time frame?

I suppose you will say that some things weren't completed on the xxx day because they were only set in motion. Okay, the shrubbery was planted and takes time to grow. Fine. But I would consider the work of creation for that day to be done.

What is your point about time frames in the quote above?

The point is that the processes God commanded "...Let the land produce..." would have most certainly required time. As noted, and quite plain, the fiats were not immediate, or stated as such as with Gen. 1:3.

If all was created in the day then why not simply state "And God said, Let the land produce living creature, and there were living creature"? What is the point that except for Gen. 1:3 all subsequent command are mediate? Why is it questionable to believe the processes God commanded are different than today...?
 
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Saint Steven

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The point is that the processes God commanded "...Let the land produce..." would have most certainly required time. As noted, and quite plain, the fiats were not immediate, or stated as such as with Gen. 1:3.

If all was created in the day then why not simply state "And God said, Let the land produce living creature, and there were living creature"? What is the point that except for Gen. 1:3 all subsequent command are mediate? Why is it questionable to believe the processes God commanded are different than today...?
I don't think the absence of the "and it was so." necessarily means it wasn't immediate. Certainly within his ability to do so. And perhaps the first statement of "and it was so." is assumed going forward in the creation week.

And what do you mean when you ask: "Why is it questionable to believe the processes God commanded are different than today...?" What sort of processes are you referring to?
 
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Jamsie

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I don't think the absence of the "and it was so." necessarily means it wasn't immediate. Certainly within his ability to do so. And perhaps the first statement of "and it was so." is assumed going forward in the creation week.

And what do you mean when you ask: "Why is it questionable to believe the processes God commanded are different than today...?" What sort of processes are you referring to?

I don't believe it to be a matter of what is in God's "ability to do so" but rather our attempt to understand what God did do. Perhaps we can all agree that we are unable to comprehend God completely but we can apprehend what God has revealed to us.

Time is short at present so I can't give you a complete answer... but consider. The key phrases to me are the commands to created matter, why? Certainly as I noted if all was created in the same day why the need for mediate agency? For now, we do know that plant growth is a process...as are many things...including human babies.
 
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hedrick

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1) No consensus among those with a figurative view as to what the creation account means.
There's no reason it would mean just one thing. There are lots of implications for Gen 1 - 3. Many have already been listed. For example, Jesus cited it as justification for divorce being wrong. Paul used Adam as an analogy for Christ. But those are certainly not the only things people could get from it, and historically have gotten from it.

Neither application is particularly visible in the text. It's reasonable for Jesus to say that becoming one flesh is not reversible, but it's certainly not explicit in the original story. The analogy between Adam and Christ is even less obviously there, though it certainly makes a nice analogy.

Christian interpretation understands the snake as Satan. But there's nothing in the text to suggest that.

I'm not aware of any NT author that cites to text to talk about the historicity of the story. Rather, there are lots of interpretations of various degrees of creativity based on it.
 
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Saint Steven

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... For now, we do know that plant growth is a process...as are many things...including human babies.
And do we see the "and it was so." after humankind was created? Wasn't that mediate from your perspective?
 
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Saint Steven

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I'm not aware of any NT author that cites to text to talk about the historicity of the story.
I posted these earlier.

Mark 10:6 NIV
“But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’

Luke 11:50-51 NIV
Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

Luke 17:26-27 NIV
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

Acts 17:24-27 NIV
“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

Romans 1:18-20 NIV
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Romans 5:12 NIV
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Romans 8:19-22 NIV
For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 NIV
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

2 Peter 3:5-6 NIV
But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
 
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DamianWarS

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This is what you wrote (quote below), that I was asking you to qualify. I suppose you will say it is honor based rather than factually based.
I'm recognizing the honor-driven predisposition inherent in the culture and how it often overrides factual-driven accounts (to this day in eastern cultures too). If a young man meets his future wife at a brothel then a week later invited her out to a family picnic. which story is recounted at their wedding for how they met? honor-driven systems will choose the one that gives the couple (and the family) the most honor as the authorized version and reject all others because it is more important to give honor than shame them with dishonorable accounts (those who work against them would expose the dishonorable and shame them). We know well in history authorized versions are not always the factual version.

since the account is introduced 2500 years after it happened to an oral culture strongly influenced by pagan cultures the point being made in the case seems more important than the raw facts. If Genesis 1 are literal facts is beside the point, I'm not trying to remove this idea but rather promote that the goal of the account is far superior, literal or not. the conversation of it being literal or not seems the most unimportant part of the account to me.
 
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DamianWarS

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Nonsense!
Your non-replies do not equate to a meaningful discussion. My points stand unchallenged.
you might want to unpack that more otherwise I get a sense of this just trying to be buried.

Ironically you're response here, aware or not, is honour-driven (westerns can be honour driven too). You seem to be suppressing the historical basis and cultural predisposition surrounding the account (calling it "Nonsense!") in favour of forcing a literal view that would directly conflict with it responding as though you have been offended deeply, then trying to quickly discredit the idea while sweeping it under a rug.

This is exactly how an eastern system would approach it. you have attempted to shame me to preserve the honour of the text. I'm merely saying this is exactly the same sort of mindset the account is formed under.
 
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Dkh587

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I posted these earlier.

Mark 10:6 NIV
“But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’

Luke 11:50-51 NIV
Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

Luke 17:26-27 NIV
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

Acts 17:24-27 NIV
“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

Romans 1:18-20 NIV
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Romans 5:12 NIV
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Romans 8:19-22 NIV
For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 NIV
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

2 Peter 3:5-6 NIV
But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
I’m starting to think some of them don’t actually know what the Bible says… it makes me wonder..

thanks for sharing.
 
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You see it as a black and white issue. Fair enough. I see it as a gray area.
I respect your view and will defend your right to it.

I stand by my quote below. Neither view is a salvation issue as far as I can tell. Should an origins statement be included in the sinner's prayer? - lol

Saint Steven said:
I don't think conceding to evolutionary science steals anyone's soul. A person can believe in Jesus and believe in Darwin. I won't claim they have lost their soul on that account. Same with the form of the planet. I won't declare the person with a globe map of the earth to be lost in their sins.

Does that seem reasonable?

Sorry Steve, but I'm going to dig the heels in here.

It's a question of faith. A person can't believe in Darwinian evolution without compromising Biblical teaching. Either we're created or we're an accident from the soup. Same with cosmology, either God created it flat, motionless and enclosed (as per scripture), or as a wacky spacebaal.

Of course, we're reconciliationists, so ultimately everyone will be saved, but it's (in part) the unbelief of Darwinism and heliocentrism that they need saving from.

Does that sound reasonable to you, and if not, could it have something to do with your reluctance to part ways with modern cosmology?
 
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Could unpack this for me? How is this flat world view "borne out in our daily experience"?

Well, do you experience rotation and orbit? Do you see curvature? You see the sun, moon and stars moving and assume the earth is moving. But you feel no movement, see no curve. When you see a bird on the wing, do you presume it's stationary and you're moving? Of course not.

All our daily empirical experience is of a flat (with features) fixed earth, is it not?
 
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This is an interesting view that I haven't come across before as being a part of Christianity. Where is it found in scripture?

God brought me to Him through geocentrism mainly (stationary earth). Flat earth has also brought many to God - a revival of sorts. The Biblical worldview is flat, fixed, enclosed. Many scriptures in support:
Flat Earth Bible Verses (More than 200)

And you might be surprised to learn that science - as in true science by observation and experiment - support it too. This debate has raged online for the last 10 years, and many of the FE channels have now been censored.

Here's Eric Dubay, not a Christian but nonetheless a mainstay of the FE movement with a video promoting his book, 200 proofs earth's not a globe:

Very liberating to find that God is trustworthy in the creation account.
 
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Ceallaigh

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When I became aware of current flat earth belief a few years ago, I watched a video that gave a good presentation of how it works. But I quite honestly didn't care much. It didn't change anything for me. I didn't care if the earth was round or flat. I have the same feelings about the earth and creation either way.
 
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When I became aware of current flat earth belief a few years ago, I watched a video that gave a good presentation of how it works. But I quite honestly didn't care much. It didn't change anything for me. I didn't care if the earth was round or flat. I have the same feelings about the earth and creation either way.

The cosmology is what kept me, and many others, from God for many years. German philosopher Nietzche announced 'God is dead and we have killed him with our science'. A Herman Wouk character in the Winds of War proclaims 'Galileo cut God's throat'. I see it as one of satan's 'blue ribbon lies' that needs to be reproved and exposed, a major stumbling block that keeps ppl from God and lost in pride and self-deceit. Also it helps with our understanding of scripture and apologetics, we no longer need to make excuses for the Biblical worldview.
 
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Ceallaigh

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The cosmology is what kept me, and many others, from God for many years. German philosopher Nietzche announced 'God is dead and we have killed him with our science'. A Herman Wouk character in the Winds of War proclaims 'Galileo cut God's throat'. I see it as one of satan's 'blue ribbon lies' that needs to be reproved and exposed, a major stumbling block that keeps ppl from God and lost in pride and self-deceit. Also it helps with our understanding of scripture and apologetics, we no longer need to make excuses for the Biblical worldview.

My older brother was a devout Christian. A lot of what I learned early on was from him. Then he became an atheist. He was always into the space program big time. He basically told me cosmology was the reason what he stopped believing.

I never took Bible references as contradicting anything personally. The only one that I could think of off the top of my head is mentioning the four corners of the earth. But even with flat earth, the earth is still round. To me four corners just means the four points of a compass.
 
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My older brother was a devout Christian. A lot of what I learned early on was from him. Then he became an atheist. He was always into the space program big time. He basically told me cosmology was the reason what he stopped believing.

An all-too-common story. Lured away by the Apollo mission. Now the Dragon spacecraft. And for what? This homeless tweaker's shelter on a B-grade Hellywood set?
iu


I never took Bible references as contradicting anything personally. The only one that I could think of off the top of my head is mentioning the four corners of the earth. But even with flat earth, the earth is still round. To me four corners just means the four points of a compass.

Could be. Or it could be more like:
iu
 
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