The Great Reckoning: Living by Faith.

aiki · Apr 30, 2021

The title might lead you to think of the Final Judgment, but what I mean by the "Great Reckoning" has nothing to do with judgment but, rather, with faith. In Romans 6, the apostle Paul laid out the spiritual state-of-affairs in every genuine born-again believer's life, explaining that all true children of God have been co-crucified with Christ, united to him in his death, burial and resurrection, and so live in "newness of life" unto God and in Jesus, dead unto sin, dead to its power. What Paul described is, especially the first time one reads his words, very...peculiar. Many Christians I've encountered find Paul's teaching in Romans 6 so arcane, so outside of what makes sense to them, that they reflexively dismiss his teaching, relegating it to the domain of spiritual gobbledy-gook. They are content to wait 'til eternity to understand what Paul was getting at.

A big part of what stymies folks when they read Romans 6, is that what Paul says is true of them as born-again believers just isn't actually true.

Romans 6:1-12
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

I've discipled guys for a long time now and when we get into Romans 6 (which I always make sure we do) the conversation goes something like this:

"I don't get this. What Paul has described here isn't true of me."

"Oh? How so?"

"Well, I sin all the time. Every day. I'm sure I'm a born-again person, but sin still has power over me. What is Paul saying, here, then? Am I supposed to think I'm not saved?"

"No, he's not saying you aren't saved. Remember: Paul was writing this chapter to believers. They were not living like they knew and understood what Paul explained to them in the chapter. He didn't tell them they weren't saved, though, only that they weren't living in the truth of who they actually were in Christ."

"So, you're saying a Christian can be both free from sin and living in sin at the same time? Isn't that a contradiction? You can't be both things at once."

"Can you think of any circumstance in life where you can be two opposite things at the same time?"

"Umm...no, not really."

"Okay. Imagine a homeless man who has just inherited a million dollars. He doesn't know he has, though. Lawyers of his distant dead relative are searching for him to tell him he's now a millionaire but until the homeless man knows he's actually a millionaire, how will he live?"

"Like a homeless man, I guess."

"Right. The homeless man is two opposite things simultaneously; he's both rich and poor at once."

"Hmm...okay. I can see what you're saying, I suppose. So, this is the situation when it comes to what Paul wrote in Romans 6? I don't know I'm dead to sin and so I'm not living like I am?"

"Sort of. Yes. Imagine that the homeless man is found by the lawyers who tell him he's inherited a million dollars, but he doesn't believe them. The homeless man tells them to look at how he's living, how shabbily he's dressed, how gaunt and dirty he is, how badly he smells. He turns out his pockets to show the lawyers they are empty. And then he says to them that the way he is living does not bear out their claim that he is, in fact, a millionaire. What he is experiencing, what he feels is true about himself, is what is real, he declares, and stalks off, annoyed at the lawyers for telling him to believe nonsense."

*Laughs* "That would be stupid! No one would do that."

"Christians do this all the time with Romans 6."

*Long silence* "I'm not sure I follow you..."

"You just told me that you sinned every day. You seemed to be challenging Paul's claim that you are dead to sin, denying that it was true that your 'old man is crucified with Christ that the body of sin might be destroyed that, henceforth, you should not serve sin.'"

"Yeah, I did, didn't I?"

"Yup."

I've had this exchange many times with men when they begin to consider Romans 6. Their resistance to Paul's claims reveals a lack of understanding about what it means to "walk by faith, not by sight." (2 Corinthians 5:7) There are a wide array of things the Bible says become immediately true of the lost person when they are born-again. All of these things must, especially at first, be taken entirely on faith as having become true. That is, there is nothing in the mundane condition of the new believer that concretely bears out that they are, in fact, all that Scripture says they are as freshly-adopted children of God. They may feel nothing and they certainly have nothing - yet - in the content of their living that bears out that they are truly new creatures in Christ. They must do what Paul tells the Roman believers in Romans 6:11 to do:

Romans 6:11
11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

In the King James version of this verse, instead of "consider" the word is "reckon," or "count on." The idea of "reckoning" is well-pictured in the analogy of stepping out onto a rope-bridge with your full weight, trusting your entire self to the capacity of the bridge to support you. In doing so, you're counting on the bridge to bear your weight. It is one thing to say to yourself, "The bridge is perfectly safe, though its bouncing and swaying about, and the ropes aren't terribly thick. I'm sure it would support me if I stepped out onto it"; but it's quite another to actually do so. No amount of intellectual agreement about the strength of the bridge can equal the experience that can only come by trusting yourself utterly to the bridge. You can't truly know the bridge will hold you until you are standing on it; you can't experience the bridge's power to support you by simply acknowledging that it can.

Paul urged the Roman believers concerning their co-crucifixion with Christ and the freedom from sin's power that was theirs in their union with Christ, to "step out onto the bridge" of this truth, to "reckon it so," to consider their death to sin a fully-accomplished fact upon which they should stand with their full weight every day.

In God's economy of things, not until such trust is exercised in the spiritual truth of one's death to sin can this truth be realized in one's living. If a believer acts like the skeptical homeless man, denying the declaration of God's word about their death to sin, and freedom from it's power, they will continue to live bound under the power of sin, unable to live the holy life God says in His word is necessary to deep, joyful fellowship with Himself.

Hebrews 12:14
14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

The "Great Reckoning," then, is the life of faith that is absolutely vital to walking with God. It is the setting aside of what one feels and even experiences and trusting that what God says is true, standing unmoved upon it, reckoning it so in the face of temptation and doubt.

"Faith is believing a thing is so,
When it appears it is not so,
In order for it to be so,
Because it is so."

What should one expect when one does this, when one lives by faith, not by sight? Will one suddenly and fully step into complete freedom from sin in one's daily experience? Will every temptation be immediately dissolved before the power of "reckoning it so"? No. Just as the Israelites progressively possessed the Promised Land, the born-again believer progressively possesses the spiritual "Promised Land" that is theirs in Christ. There will be battles of faith against deeply-ingrained habits of thought and action; struggles to stand unmoved on the truth of God's word; a wrestling with old patterns that took time to create and will take time to undo and replace with new biblical patterns. But the spiritual inheritance of the believer can be possessed - and must be - if the believer is ever to truly enjoy and honor God as He made them to do.

Hebrews 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Romans 1:17
17 ...as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:38)

Hebrews 3:12-19
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
15 while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

Neogaia777 · Apr 30, 2021

aiki said:
The title might lead you to think of the Final Judgment, but what I mean by the "Great Reckoning" has nothing to do with judgment but, rather, with faith. In Romans 6, the apostle Paul laid out the spiritual state-of-affairs in every genuine born-again believer's life, explaining that all true children of God have been co-crucified with Christ, united to him in his death, burial and resurrection, and so live in "newness of life" unto God and in Jesus, dead unto sin, dead to its power. What Paul described is, especially the first time one reads his words, very...peculiar. Many Christians I've encountered find Paul's teaching in Romans 6 so arcane, so outside of what makes sense to them, that they reflexively dismiss his teaching, relegating it to the domain of spiritual gobbledy-gook. They are content to wait 'til eternity to understand what Paul was getting at.

A big part of what stymies folks when they read Romans 6, is that what Paul says is true of them as born-again believers just isn't actually true.

Romans 6:1-12
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

I've discipled guys for a long time now and when we get into Romans 6 (which I always make sure we do) the conversation goes something like this:

"I don't get this. What Paul has described here isn't true of me."

"Oh? How so?"

"Well, I sin all the time. Every day. I'm sure I'm a born-again person, but sin still has power over me. What is Paul saying, here, then? Am I supposed to think I'm not saved?"

"No, he's not saying you aren't saved. Remember: Paul was writing this chapter to believers. They were not living like they knew and understood what Paul explained to them in the chapter. He didn't tell them they weren't saved, though, only that they weren't living in the truth of who they actually were in Christ."

"So, you're saying a Christian can be both free from sin and living in sin at the same time? Isn't that a contradiction? You can't be both things at once."

"Can you think of any circumstance in life where you can be two opposite things at the same time?"

"Umm...no, not really."

"Okay. Imagine a homeless man who has just inherited a million dollars. He doesn't know he has, though. Lawyers of his distant dead relative are searching for him to tell him he's now a millionaire but until the homeless man knows he's actually a millionaire, how will he live?"

"Like a homeless man, I guess."

"Right. The homeless man is two opposite things simultaneously; he's both rich and poor at once."

"Hmm...okay. I can see what you're saying, I suppose. So, this is the situation when it comes to what Paul wrote in Romans 6? I don't know I'm dead to sin and so I'm not living like I am?"

"Sort of. Yes. Imagine that the homeless man is found by the lawyers who tell him he's inherited a million dollars, but he doesn't believe them. The homeless man tells them to look at how he's living, how shabbily he's dressed, how gaunt and dirty he is, how badly he smells. He turns out his pockets to show the lawyers they are empty. And then he says to them that the way he is living does not bear out their claim that he is, in fact, a millionaire. What he is experiencing, what he feels is true about himself, is what is real, he declares, and stalks off, annoyed at the lawyers for telling him to believe nonsense."

*Laughs* "That would be stupid! No one would do that."

"Christians do this all the time with Romans 6."

*Long silence* "I'm not sure I follow you..."

"You just told me that you sinned every day. You seemed to be challenging Paul's claim that you are dead to sin, denying that it was true that your 'old man is crucified with Christ that the body of sin might be destroyed that, henceforth, you should not serve sin.'"

"Yeah, I did, didn't I?"

"Yup."

I've had this exchange many times with men when they begin to consider Romans 6. Their resistance to Paul's claims reveals a lack of understanding about what it means to "walk by faith, not by sight." (2 Corinthians 5:7) There are a wide array of things the Bible says become immediately true of the lost person when they are born-again. All of these things must, especially at first, be taken entirely on faith as having become true. That is, there is nothing in the mundane condition of the new believer that concretely bears out that they are, in fact, all that Scripture says they are as freshly-adopted children of God. They may feel nothing and they certainly have nothing - yet - in the content of their living that bears out that they are truly new creatures in Christ. They must do what Paul tells the Roman believers in Romans 6:11 to do:

Romans 6:11
11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

In the King James version of this verse, instead of "consider" the word is "reckon," or "count on." The idea of "reckoning" is well-pictured in the analogy of stepping out onto a rope-bridge with your full weight, trusting your entire self to the capacity of the bridge to support you. In doing so, you're counting on the bridge to bear your weight. It is one thing to say to yourself, "The bridge is perfectly safe, though its bouncing and swaying about, and the ropes aren't terribly thick. I'm sure it would support me if I stepped out onto it"; but it's quite another to actually do so. No amount of intellectual agreement about the strength of the bridge can equal the experience that can only come by trusting yourself utterly to the bridge. You can't truly know the bridge will hold you until you are standing on it; you can't experience the bridge's power to support you by simply acknowledging that it can.

Paul urged the Roman believers concerning their co-crucifixion with Christ and the freedom from sin's power that was theirs in their union with Christ, to "step out onto the bridge" of this truth, to "reckon it so," to consider their death to sin a fully-accomplished fact upon which they should stand with their full weight every day.

In God's economy of things, not until such trust is exercised in the spiritual truth of one's death to sin can this truth be realized in one's living. If a believer acts like the skeptical homeless man, denying the declaration of God's word about their death to sin, and freedom from it's power, they will continue to live bound under the power of sin, unable to live the holy life God says in His word is necessary to deep, joyful fellowship with Himself.

Hebrews 12:14
14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

The "Great Reckoning," then, is the life of faith that is absolutely vital to walking with God. It is the setting aside of what one feels and even experiences and trusting that what God says is true, standing unmoved upon it, reckoning it so in the face of temptation and doubt.

"Faith is believing a thing is so,
When it appears it is not so,
In order for it to be so,
Because it is so."

What should one expect when one does this, when one lives by faith, not by sight? Will one suddenly and fully step into complete freedom from sin in one's daily experience? Will every temptation be immediately dissolved before the power of "reckoning it so"? No. Just as the Israelites progressively possessed the Promised Land, the born-again believer progressively possesses the spiritual "Promised Land" that is theirs in Christ. There will be battles of faith against deeply-ingrained habits of thought and action; struggles to stand unmoved on the truth of God's word; a wrestling with old patterns that took time to create and will take time to undo and replace with new biblical patterns. But the spiritual inheritance of the believer can - really, must - be possessed if the believer is ever to truly enjoy and honor God as He made them to do.

Hebrews 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Romans 1:17
17 ...as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:38)

Hebrews 3:12-19
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
15 while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

This is a very good post, and I can tell you put a lot of thought and/or work into it, and I can fully understand what it is that you are trying to do here, etc...

But, even Paul said that, in his flesh, and while he was still here in his flesh, and in this world still, etc, that even he was still a captive or slave to sin's law, etc, and I'm assuming, sometimes still sinned, etc, and that was the Great Apostle Paul, etc...

(Romans 7:25, and all of Romans 7 really, which comes right after Romans 6)

We must fight against or resist sin, yes, etc, and do that as much or as hard as we can or are capable of in this life, etc, yes, but none of us are capable of being as perfect as Jesus, etc...

And I think, or rather, I don't think, God is going to judge each one too harshly in an area that He didn't simply create or make him or her to be as capable, or not as fully capable, as Jesus, etc... Or as capable or not as capable as another, or as others are or were or is, etc, for which He made each one different, etc, but with none as being as 100% completely fully capable in all areas, or on all points or fronts always, as Jesus, etc...

But I did thoroughly enjoy your post though, and I'm giving it a "like" because of it, etc, and most certainly don't ever give up on it, OK...

I think it helped me a little because their certainly was some good points and examples in there, etc...

Some stuff I could glean from it, etc...

Anyway,

Peace,

God Bless!

aiki · Apr 30, 2021

Neogaia777 said:
But, even Paul said that, in his flesh, and while he was still here in his flesh, and in this world still, etc, that even he was still a captive or slave to sin's law, etc, and I'm assuming, sometimes still sinned, etc, and that was the Great Apostle Paul, etc...

(Romans 7:25, and all of Romans 7 really, which comes right after Romans 6)

I appreciate your response to my post, Neogaia777.

I don't in my OP ever actually say that the truth of Romans 6, believed and applied, will result in the immediate cessation of all sin in a believer's life. In fact, I mentioned the battle, struggle and wrestling with a lifetime of sinful thinking and habits as one learns to "reckon it so" that they are "dead to sin and alive unto God." When the truth of a person's death to sin is believed and counted on, however, sin does become progressively, over time, the rare occurrence, not the daily event it is for most believers.

I wonder at your effort to blunt/counter the force of what Paul wrote in Romans 6, making room, it seems, for sin in a believer's life. Do you think Paul overstated things when he wrote:

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:6-7
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Romans 6:14
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 6:18
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Romans 6:22
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Was Paul exaggerating in these statements he made? Did he contort the truth or contradict himself? What confidence can you have in his writing if this is what you believe (which I'm not saying that you do)?

Are you aware that Paul goes on from Romans 7 to provide the answer to the conflict he describes in it in his comments in chapter 8, which dovetail very tightly with his teaching in chapter 6? Paul acknowledges there is a struggle with sin in Romans 7, but he doesn't ever indicate the believer must live in that struggle always, never coming into a practical experience of Romans 6 (and Romans 8).

Neogaia777 said:
We must fight against or resist sin, yes, etc, and do that as much or as hard as we can or are capable of in this life, etc, yes, but none of us are capable of being as perfect as Jesus, etc...

Well, part of what I was trying to explain is that what Paul describes in Romans 6 is an already accomplished fact. It isn't, then, that you and I have to fight to make it a reality in our lives by resisting sin, by straining our hardest to be righteous people. What Paul actually teaches is that the struggle is to believe that you are truly free of sin's power, free always to say "No" to sin and to turn from it because Jesus put to death the power of sin in your life when you died spiritually with him on the cross of Calvary. However hard it may feel to resist sin, the truth is that you are free of its power. The battle or labor the Christian endures is to fully trust that this is true. And when the Christian does, then it is that the Christian's freedom from sin's power begins to be reflected in the character of the Christian's living.

Imagine the homeless guy I mentioned, hearing the lawyers tell him he's a millionaire. Would it be a rational response for him to begin to struggle and strain to make himself a millionaire and to live like it? Having heard he is a millionaire, should he set about earning money so that he is, in fact, a millionaire? Why would he do that? He already is one; he just has to start believing it.

The homeless millionaire shows he's really believed he's a millionaire when, despite what he feels and experiences as a homeless man, he goes down to the bank where his money is kept for him and begins to withdraw his money and spend it. The withdrawing and spending of the money is not the means of his becoming a millionaire, however, but the result of his already being a millionaire (and really believing it).

This is much the case for the born-again believer, too. In Christ, the believer has inherited vast spiritual "wealth." In his union with Christ, the believer has, among many other things, been freed from the power of sin. When the believer knows that this is so, and begins to really trust that it is true, he makes "withdrawals" on this spiritual wealth by facing temptation, not by straining to resist his own desires, but by standing unmoved upon the truth of his freedom from sin's power. In the face of temptation, he can - and must - declare, "I am no longer under the power of sin. In Christ, I am dead to sin and alive unto God and never have to yield again to any temptation." And then he remains, by faith, in this truth, trusting to it no matter what he feels - or even experiences. Having made a "withdrawal" in this way on the spiritual wealth that is his in Christ, the believer begins the process whereby he is more and more conformed to this truth in his daily living (as he persists in remaining by faith in the truth of Romans 6).

Sadly - very sadly - living by faith in this manner is virtually unknown among modern born-again believers (which is why I write about it on CF). Instead of the labor of faith, they are told to wrestle with themselves and resign themselves to a weak, faltering, compromised walk with God which is the only sort of result they can achieve by fighting with themselves by their own power. There is, however, no actual walking with God this way. Oh, many believers are related to God as His children, but they can in no way enjoy Him and truly, deeply know Him in the midst of life crowded with sin.

Psalm 66:18
18 If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;

Isaiah 59:1-2
1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not so short That it cannot save; Nor is His ear so dull That it cannot hear.
2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

1 Peter 3:12
12 "FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS, AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER, BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL." (Sorry for the all-caps. They're in this format in my digital Scripture resource.)

Hebrews 12:14
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

1 Peter 1:14-16
14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16 because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

Neogaia777 said:
But I did thoroughly enjoy your post though, and I'm giving it a "like" because of it, etc, and most certainly don't ever give up on it, OK...

I think it helped me a little because their certainly was some good points and examples in there, etc...

Some stuff I could glean from it, etc...

Thanks for your encouragement. I don't know if it helps at all to know that I am not some young armchair theologian, with little or no real experience of the things I'm writing. I've been a Christian for just shy of fifty years. My adult years as a believer have been as preacher, teacher and discipler of fellow Christians, my focus being particulary on one-on-one discipleship. I have studied, and lived, written and taught, God's word for decades. What I share in my posts, then, aren't some novel notions I've worked up that I'm putting out there just to see what happens. I know whereof I speak (and write) both by study and by lived experience. My hope is that the harvest of my study and experience, shared on CF, will help others to move into the rich, joyful, holy fellowship with God that I enjoy daily.

Neogaia777 · Apr 30, 2021

aiki said:
I appreciate your response to my post, Neogaia777. Truth be told, the OP was off the top of my head, produced in about an hour or so of writing. What sounded like careful, painstaking effort is likely just the effect of knowing what I'm talking about through long personal experience and through working many other folks through this same stuff in discipleship.

I don't in my OP ever actually say that the truth of Romans 6, believed and applied, will result in the immediate cessation of all sin in a believer's life. In fact, I mentioned the battle, struggle and wrestling with a lifetime of sinful thinking and habits as one learns to "reckon it so" that they are "dead to sin and alive unto God." When the truth of a person's death to sin is believed and counted on, however, sin does become progressively, over time, the rare occurrence, not the daily event it is for most believers.

I wonder at your effort to blunt/counter the force of what Paul wrote in Romans 6, making room, it seems, for sin in a believer's life. Do you think Paul overstated things when he wrote:

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:6-7
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Romans 6:14
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 6:18
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Romans 6:22
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Was Paul exaggerating in these statements he made? Did he contort the truth or contradict himself? What confidence can you have in his writing if this is what you believe (which I'm not saying that you do)?

Are you aware that Paul goes on from Romans 7 to provide the answer to the conflict he describes in it in his comments in chapter 8, which dovetail very tightly with his teaching in chapter 6? Paul acknowledges there is a struggle with sin in Romans 7, but he doesn't ever indicate the believer must live in that struggle always, never coming into a practical experience of Romans 6 (and Romans 8).

Well, part of what I was trying to explain is that what Paul describes in Romans 6 is an already accomplished fact. It isn't, then, that you and I have to fight to make it a reality in our lives by resisting sin, by straining our hardest to be righteous people. What Paul actually teaches is that the struggle is to believe that you are truly free of sin's power, free always to say "No" to sin and to turn from it because Jesus put to death the power of sin in your life when you died spiritually with him on the cross of Calvary. However hard it may feel to resist sin, the truth is that you are free of its power. The battle or labor the Christian endures is to fully trust that this is true. And when the Christian does, then it is that the Christian's freedom from sin's power begins to be reflected in the character of the Christian's living.

Imagine the homeless guy I mentioned, hearing the lawyers tell him he's a millionaire. Would it be a rational response for him to begin to struggle and strain to make himself a millionaire and to live like it? Having heard he is a millionaire, should he set about earning money so that he is, in fact, a millionaire? Why would he do that? He already is one; he just has to start believing it.

The homeless millionaire shows he's really believed he's a millionaire when, despite what he feels and experiences as a homeless man, he goes down to the bank where his money is kept for him and begins to withdraw his money and spend it. The withdrawing and spending of the money is not the means of his becoming a millionaire, however, but the result of his already being a millionaire (and really believing it).

This is much the case for the born-again believer, too. In Christ, the believer has inherited vast spiritual "wealth." In his union with Christ, the believer has, among many other things, been freed from the power of sin. When the believer knows that this is so, and begins to really trust that it is true, he makes "withdrawals" on this spiritual wealth by facing temptation, not by straining to resist his own desires, but by standing unmoved upon the truth of his freedom from sin's power. In the face of temptation, he can - and must - declare, "I am no longer under the power of sin. In Christ, I am dead to sin and alive unto God and never have to yield again to any temptation." And then he remains, by faith, in this truth, trusting to it no matter what he feels - or even experiences. Having made a "withdrawal" in this way on the spiritual wealth that is his in Christ, the believer begins the process whereby he is more and more conformed to this truth in his daily living (as he persists in remaining by faith in the truth of Romans 6).

Sadly - very sadly - living by faith in this manner is virtually unknown among modern born-again believers (which is why I write about it on CF). Instead of the labor of faith, they are told to wrestle with themselves and resign themselves to a weak, faltering, compromised walk with God which is the only sort of result they can achieve by fighting with themselves by their own power. There is, however, no actual walking with God this way. Oh, many believers are related to God as His children, but they can in no way enjoy Him and truly, deeply know Him in the midst of life crowded with sin.

Psalm 66:18
18 If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;

Isaiah 59:1-2
1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not so short That it cannot save; Nor is His ear so dull That it cannot hear.
2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

1 Peter 3:12
12 "FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS, AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER, BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL." (Sorry for the all-caps. They're in this format in my digital Scripture resource.)

Hebrews 12:14
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

1 Peter 1:14-16
14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16 because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

Thanks for your encouragement. I don't know if it helps at all to know that I am not some young armchair theologian, with little or no real experience of the things I'm writing. I've been a Christian for just shy of fifty years. My adult years as a believer have been as preacher, teacher and discipler of fellow Christians, my focus being particulary on one-on-one discipleship. I have studied, and lived, written and taught, God's word for decades. What I share in my posts, then, isn't some novel notions I've worked up that I'm putting out there just to see what happens. I know whereof I speak (and write) both by study and by lived experience. My hope is that the harvest of my study and experience, shared on CF, will help others to move into the rich, joyful, holy fellowship with God that I enjoy daily.

Well, let me just say that good pastors and preachers/teachers, maybe like Paul, etc, preach or teach to themselves just as much as they do others when they are writing letters or coming up with sermons, etc, the good ones anyway, (Paul mentions that BTW, but I don't think I need to reference it for you if you have as much experience and knowledge as you say, etc) and I think that might have been part of people like Paul are doing or were doing partially, etc...

Acknowledging, and having enough humility, to realize that they themselves need it for themselves just as much as others do, etc...

But as far as the struggle with sin, or sinful temptations, etc, like being tempted to sometimes maybe not behave so exactly Christlike in every single given situation all of the time, etc, or with sinful habits, etc, I'm not saying that we have to fight or struggle so very hard in our will to resist, or that that is truly the way, etc, cause I don't think it is, etc, I just mainly wanted to point out that everybody is not made the same, etc, more or less capable or able, or not as capable or able, in differing and different areas from one another, etc, and that none of us is ever going to be equal to Christ, etc...

And I'll use myself as an example, I do pretty well by myself most of the time, as far as sin goes, etc, but some people might not, etc, and people have different strengths and weaknesses, etc...

But, when I am away from the world, disconnected from it, and most of the people of the world, etc, I do pretty well, etc, but when I get thrown back into it for too long a time, and don't get a break from it, well, let's just says that sometimes my behavior is not so Christ like sometimes, etc, and I'm working on it still, etc...

But yes, sin should become less and less over time most of the time, etc, and it was/is/has been that way with me in my life so far, etc...

I just think we need to be very careful judging others by our metric or our standards, and most especially not hold them up to Christ standard, etc, but show a little mercy, etc, or at least I'm trying to do that in my own life right now with what I just now described about myself, etc, God made everybody all each different, and some people might just not ever be as able or capable as say, maybe people like you or me maybe, etc, and I'm trying to something different than get frustrated with them right now and letting it/that show and/or come out with them sometimes, etc, which isn't very Christlike, and is in fact, very sinful, etc...

Anyway,

Peace,

God Bless!

aiki · Apr 30, 2021

Neogaia777 said:
Well, let me just say that good pastors and preachers/teachers, maybe like Paul, etc, preach or teach to themselves just as much as they do others when they are writing letters or coming up with sermons, etc, the good ones anyway...

Are you thinking this is not the case with me? If so, why would you think this, exactly?

Neogaia777 said:
Acknowledging, and having enough humility, to realize that they themselves need it for themselves just as much as others do, etc...

The fact is, God has never allowed me to teach others about spiritual truths I haven't first lived myself. You can't really teach something about which you're ignorant - especially when it comes to spiritual truth.

Neogaia777 said:
just mainly wanted to point out that everybody is not made the same, etc, more or less capable or able, or not as capable or able, in differing and different areas from one another, etc, and that none of us is ever going to be equal to Christ, etc...

The great thing about God is that our weaknesses, however great, aren't any difficulty at all to Him. He can overcome them all without even beginning to tax His power, if we'll let Him. Really, He's already done much of what needs to be done to free us from ourselves and our sin. We just have to really believe He's done what He's done.

Neogaia777 said:
I just think we need to be very careful judging others by our metric or our standards, and most especially not hold them up to Christ standard, etc, but show a little mercy, etc

Hmmm... I've not written from my own metric and standard. Everything I've written I can ground thoroughly in Scripture. Whatever standards have appeared in my comments, they are ultimately God's standards.

Is it a kindness to make people think they are walking well with God when they aren't? Do I really show mercy to others by making them think God winks at their sin when in fact He hates their sin, the sin that killed His Son, and turns His face away from them as a result of it? I don't see how...

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read my remarks. I appreciate you making the effort to consider my words and offer a reply to them.

Neogaia777 · Apr 30, 2021

aiki said:
Are you thinking this is not the case with me? If so, why would you think this, exactly?

The fact is, God has never allowed me to teach others about spiritual truths I haven't first lived myself. You can't really teach something about which you're ignorant - especially when it comes to spiritual truth.

The great thing about God is that our weaknesses, however great, aren't any difficulty at all to Him. He can overcome them all without even beginning to tax His power, if we'll let Him. Really, He's already done much of what needs to be done to free us from ourselves and our sin. We just have to really believe He's done what He's done.

Hmmm... I've not written from my own metric and standard. Everything I've written I can ground thoroughly in Scripture. Whatever standards have appeared in my comments, they are ultimately God's standards.

Is it a kindness to make people think they are walking well with God when they aren't? Do I really show mercy to others by making them think God winks at their sin when in fact He hates their sin, the sin that killed His Son, and turns His face away from them as a result of it? I don't see how...

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read my remarks. I appreciate you making the effort to consider my words and offer a reply to them.

I've got to go for now, gonna help a friend with his yard today, and he's here now, but would just like to say that I'm very sorry if my words seemed accusatory in any kind of way, because that was not my intent, etc, I was just more making some general statements, sorry, OK...

Anyway, well, got to go for now, maybe check back later...

Much Peace,

God Bless!

aiki · Apr 30, 2021

No worries. I'm glad of your responses. It means someone has actually read and considered what I wrote! Enjoy the sunshine out in the yard!

Neogaia777 · Apr 30, 2021

aiki said:
No worries. I'm glad of your responses. It means someone has actually read and considered what I wrote! Enjoy the sunshine out in the yard!

Yes, I did feel like I got a few things out of it, if I didn't say that already, thanks.

Pooped after yard work, going to relax for a little bit, there was a lot to do, and still not completely done yet, going to finish it up another day, after the rain that we wanted to get ahead of today.

God Bless!

aiki · Jun 15, 2021

Bump.

biblelesson · Jun 30, 2021

Neogaia777 said:
We must fight against or resist sin, yes, etc, and do that as much or as hard as we can or are capable of in this life, etc, yes, but none of us are capable of being as perfect as Jesus, etc...

No, this is not true! I know you think it is because it's possible you have not experience the difference by the Spirit, but we are not to fight with the flesh. We are told to put it off. This requires a faith to believes what God said, that he put us into Christ at Christ's death on the Cross. Our fleshly man is dead! We are told to believe this, recon it so. Recon = reconcile! Make up in our minds what God has said is true. Believe it. That's it. Nothing more.

When we find ourselves fighting with the flesh, it means we are not walking by the Spirit. If we continue to believe that we must always fight with the flesh to try and be good, try and not sin, try and get it right, then we will be hindered, and how will we know the Power of the Holy Spirit? Because it's the Power of the Holy Spirit that gives us the power to not sin.

Neogaia777 said:
And I think, or rather, I don't think, God is going to judge each one too harshly in an area that He didn't simply create or make him or her to be as capable, or not as fully capable, as Jesus, etc... Or as capable or not as capable as another, or as others are or were or is, etc, for which He made each one different, etc, but with none as being as 100% completely fully capable in all areas, or on all points or fronts always, as Jesus, etc...

Yes we are to be 100% fully capable in all areas, on all points or fronts always, as Jesus. Ephesians 4:4-6, "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." there is one Spirit, One God, One Lord!

We are to be 100% fully capable as Jesus! The reason is because it is Jesus Himself that lives in us; we don't do the work. Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God..." Apostle Paul said we are saved by his Gospel, and he said we are to follow Him. So, this is for every believer. Christ who lives/lived in Apostle Paul when he was alive, lives in every believer today. Romans 7:24-25, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.."

It's the law that relates to us doing "acts of righteousness," and is what you have said you are doing: ("We must fight against or resist sin, yes, etc, and do that as much or as hard as we can or are capable of in this life"). When we do this, although it seems like the proper thing to do, we place ourselves back under the law. The law condemns us.. We are to live by grace, that is the grace given to us by God, by His Power, the Power of the Holy Spirit to live righteously, by faith.

We are not able or capable to live righteous, and to not sin of our own. We are dead with Christ; and we are not required to do something we cannot do, such as not commit sin, and live righteously. That's why the Holy Spirit does it by the grace of God to enable us to "Walk thou holy before Him." This is what Galatians 2:21 means, "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness comes by the law (doing, trying to be right, trying to not sin, etc.), then Christ is dead in vain.

The fact that Christ died on the Cross to cover our sins, and the fact that sin is not imputed unto us, means there has to be a way to make this an actuality, or Christ died in vein. How can someone who is dead in Christ, crucified with Christ, and is told to put off the old man, live? Christ told Nicodemus he must be born again, John 3:3-6. The new life in Christ has all the power to not sin: the New Man. It's not us, because we are dead with Christ. Can a dead man live? No! That's why Apostle Paul said, I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me. This is the offense of the Cross, because of man's pride! This is why so many people reject Christ! In my opinion, pride has to be an evil spirit. I think it is because it binds a man to condemnation and sin. But Christ has all power to subdue sin by His Spirit.

Now, I'm saying this because God's good grace has shown me the difference between walking by the Spirit, and walking by the flesh experientially. And it's absolutely true that it's not easy, when I don't watch like the bible tells us. Then the battle with the flesh starts again; I somehow forget, and start thinking I must do it. But in the Spirit, there is no battle with the flesh. Yes, we are 100% like Christ as it relates to our ability to sin or not sin, because the Holy Spirit is Christ's Spirit.

Luke 11:13, "if ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? The Holy Spirit is the Power to not sin.

Neogaia777 · Jun 30, 2021

biblelesson said:
No, this is not true! I know you think it is because it's possible you have not experience the difference by the Spirit, but we are not to fight with the flesh. We are told to put it off. This requires a faith to believes what God said, that he put us into Christ at Christ's death on the Cross. Our fleshly man is dead! We are told to believe this, recon it so. Recon = reconcile! Make up in our minds what God has said is true. Believe it. That's it. Nothing more.

When we find ourselves fighting with the flesh, it means we are not walking by the Spirit. If we continue to believe that we must always fight with the flesh to try and be good, try and not sin, try and get it right, then we will be hindered, and how will we know the Power of the Holy Spirit? Because it's the Power of the Holy Spirit that gives us the power to not sin.

Yes we are to be 100% fully capable in all areas, on all points or fronts always, as Jesus. Ephesians 4:4-6, "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." there is one Spirit, One God, One Lord!

We are to be 100% fully capable as Jesus! The reason is because it is Jesus Himself that lives in us; we don't do the work. Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God..." Apostle Paul said we are saved by his Gospel, and he said we are to follow Him. So, this is for every believer. Christ who lives/lived in Apostle Paul when he was alive, lives in every believer today. Romans 7:24-25, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.."

It's the law that relates to us doing "acts of righteousness," and is what you have said you are doing: ("We must fight against or resist sin, yes, etc, and do that as much or as hard as we can or are capable of in this life"). When we do this, although it seems like the proper thing to do, we place ourselves back under the law. The law condemns us.. We are to live by grace, that is the grace given to us by God, by His Power, the Power of the Holy Spirit to live righteously, by faith.

We are not able or capable to live righteous, and to not sin of our own. We are dead with Christ; and we are not required to do something we cannot do, such as not commit sin, and live righteously. That's why the Holy Spirit does it by the grace of God to enable us to "Walk thou holy before Him." This is what Galatians 2:21 means, "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness comes by the law (doing, trying to be right, trying to not sin, etc.), then Christ is dead in vain.

The fact that Christ died on the Cross to cover our sins, and the fact that sin is not imputed unto us, means there has to be a way to make this an actuality, or Christ died in vein. How can someone who is dead in Christ, crucified with Christ, and is told to put off the old man, live? Christ told Nicodemus he must be born again, John 3:3-6. The new life in Christ has all the power to not sin: the New Man. It's not us, because we are dead with Christ. Can a dead man live? No! That's why Apostle Paul said, I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me. This is the offense of the Cross, because of man's pride! This is why so many people reject Christ! In my opinion, pride has to be an evil spirit. I think it is because it binds a man to condemnation and sin. But Christ has all power to subdue sin by His Spirit.

Now, I'm saying this because God's good grace has shown me the difference between walking by the Spirit, and walking by the flesh experientially. And it's absolutely true that it's not easy, when I don't watch like the bible tells us. Then the battle with the flesh starts again; I somehow forget, and start thinking I must do it. But in the Spirit, there is no battle with the flesh. Yes, we are 100% like Christ as it relates to our ability to sin or not sin, because the Holy Spirit is Christ's Spirit.

Luke 11:13, "if ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? The Holy Spirit is the Power to not sin.

Maybe you misunderstood me, because I did not mean I fight all by myself, or in just primarily in my own strength/will/flesh, etc...

When I say "fight" I mean doing what it is you need to do to be walking with the Lord or Holy Spirit fully, etc, making those right choices, fully believing Him right, etc, and at different stages and ages, that can at some times be different at those different stages for everyone, etc...

And I don't think some people were made by God to be as fully capable or able as others either, etc, and will also factor that into His judging in or by the end, etc...

The desire to sin does not disappear magically or overnight for some, etc, and some have been told, over and over and over again, the kinds of things you are saying, etc, which are very good and accurate and true for the most part, etc, but it still has not completely made them free from all sin yet, etc...

And this has nothing to do with their own level of faith, or believing or not believing right, or their just wanting to sin, or whatever, etc, anyway, has very little to nothing to do with any of that, or things like that, etc...

Anyway, Be Blessed

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Jun 30, 2021

biblelesson said:
No, this is not true! I know you think it is because it's possible you have not experience the difference by the Spirit, but we are not to fight with the flesh. We are told to put it off. This requires a faith to believes what God said, that he put us into Christ at Christ's death on the Cross. Our fleshly man is dead! We are told to believe this, recon it so. Recon = reconcile! Make up in our minds what God has said is true. Believe it. That's it. Nothing more.

When we find ourselves fighting with the flesh, it means we are not walking by the Spirit. If we continue to believe that we must always fight with the flesh to try and be good, try and not sin, try and get it right, then we will be hindered, and how will we know the Power of the Holy Spirit? Because it's the Power of the Holy Spirit that gives us the power to not sin.

Yes we are to be 100% fully capable in all areas, on all points or fronts always, as Jesus. Ephesians 4:4-6, "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." there is one Spirit, One God, One Lord!

We are to be 100% fully capable as Jesus! The reason is because it is Jesus Himself that lives in us; we don't do the work. Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God..." Apostle Paul said we are saved by his Gospel, and he said we are to follow Him. So, this is for every believer. Christ who lives/lived in Apostle Paul when he was alive, lives in every believer today. Romans 7:24-25, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.."

It's the law that relates to us doing "acts of righteousness," and is what you have said you are doing: ("We must fight against or resist sin, yes, etc, and do that as much or as hard as we can or are capable of in this life"). When we do this, although it seems like the proper thing to do, we place ourselves back under the law. The law condemns us.. We are to live by grace, that is the grace given to us by God, by His Power, the Power of the Holy Spirit to live righteously, by faith.

We are not able or capable to live righteous, and to not sin of our own. We are dead with Christ; and we are not required to do something we cannot do, such as not commit sin, and live righteously. That's why the Holy Spirit does it by the grace of God to enable us to "Walk thou holy before Him." This is what Galatians 2:21 means, "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness comes by the law (doing, trying to be right, trying to not sin, etc.), then Christ is dead in vain.

The fact that Christ died on the Cross to cover our sins, and the fact that sin is not imputed unto us, means there has to be a way to make this an actuality, or Christ died in vein. How can someone who is dead in Christ, crucified with Christ, and is told to put off the old man, live? Christ told Nicodemus he must be born again, John 3:3-6. The new life in Christ has all the power to not sin: the New Man. It's not us, because we are dead with Christ. Can a dead man live? No! That's why Apostle Paul said, I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me. This is the offense of the Cross, because of man's pride! This is why so many people reject Christ! In my opinion, pride has to be an evil spirit. I think it is because it binds a man to condemnation and sin. But Christ has all power to subdue sin by His Spirit.

Now, I'm saying this because God's good grace has shown me the difference between walking by the Spirit, and walking by the flesh experientially. And it's absolutely true that it's not easy, when I don't watch like the bible tells us. Then the battle with the flesh starts again; I somehow forget, and start thinking I must do it. But in the Spirit, there is no battle with the flesh. Yes, we are 100% like Christ as it relates to our ability to sin or not sin, because the Holy Spirit is Christ's Spirit.

Luke 11:13, "if ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? The Holy Spirit is the Power to not sin.

Paul was also admitting he still served sin sometimes in his flesh (Romans 7), and that was "Paul the great Apostle", etc...

Almost everyone has been told and fully knows about "walking in the Spirit and not doing the desires of the lusts of the flesh", etc, "the old man has died and is dead (to sin)", etc, "put on the new one", etc, etc, etc, but also knows that none, no not one, is or ever will be as 100% totally and completely sinlessly perfect as Jesus was/is/always was either, etc...

And I think it takes a lot more "pride" to not admit or own up to this, than it ever does to just simply own up to this, and/or just admit this, etc...

And even Paul himself, who told us and taught us all these things, even admitted he was not all the time always fully and completely always successful at it always, etc...

And again, that was "Paul the great Apostle", etc...

But my point more was/is, is that this does not ever make us just "give up" 100% totally and completely, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

biblelesson · Jun 30, 2021

Neogaia777 said:
Paul was also admitting he still served sin sometimes in his flesh (Romans 7), and that was "Paul the great Apostle", etc...

Almost everyone has been told and fully knows about "walking in the Spirit and not doing the desires of the lusts of the flesh", etc, "the old man has died and is dead (to sin)", etc, "put on the new one", etc, etc, etc, but also knows that none, no not one, is or ever will be as 100% totally and completely sinlessly perfect as Jesus was/is/always was either, etc...

And I think it takes a lot more "pride" to not admit or own up to this, than it ever does to just simply own up to this, and/or just admit this, etc...

And even Paul himself, who told us and taught us all these things, even admitted he was not all the time always fully and completely always successful at it always, etc...

And again, that was "Paul the great Apostle", etc...

But my point more was/is, is that this does not ever make us just "give up" 100% totally and completely, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Apostle Paul was showing us in Romans 7, the difference between the law of sin, and law of the Law of God after the inward man. He also showed us the answer to how the be delivered, "Thanks be to Christ." He showed us he was delivered, "I live, yet not I, but Christ that lives in me." This is the answer to the flesh warring against the Spirit. Galatians 5:17-18, "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. These are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that that ye would. But if ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

The law here is talking about the law of sin. The sin that wars against the Spirit. The sin that we struggle with. The bible says if we are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law. This means the law, or sin, has no power over us; it makes us 100% totally sinless because the blood of Christ makes us 100% totally sinless. That's the purpose of Christ dying, so that we can appear holy before God.

When we don't know this, and have not accepted this fact, and don't believe this, we are left to the flesh warring against the spirit without the Power of the Holy Spirit.

So our sinful actions that we continue to commit is because we have not learned what the Gospel is saying to us about the Holy Spirit, which gives us the power to not sin literally. It is not us. Yes we are sinners and will alway be sinners. But, that sin has been taken away from us by the blood Christ shed on the Cross. No one is saying it is not a process, but our focus has to be, not on us to stop sinning, but on the Spirit to give us the Power to stop sinning.

Not us, but the Holy Spirit that gives us the Power to stop sinning

When we understand this, we stop taking the credit for what Christ did, and discounting the Cross.. Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."

I don't want an argument, I just wanted to share the gospel truth with you!

God Bless you also,

Neogaia777 · Jul 1, 2021

biblelesson said:
I don't want an argument, I just wanted to share the gospel truth with you!

I do know what you are trying to do, and I do fully apologize if I did not say it or acknowledge it earlier, but/and/or because, I do actually greatly, greatly appreciate it, and thank you very, very much for it, etc, I think you have a very very good heart, etc...

But, and not to sound arrogant or anything, but I already have known this for a while now, but still do sin sometimes, and that's my number one main problem, etc...

But I know and agree with you on the correct way to "do" it, etc, or go about it, etc, by having God and not me doing it, etc, acknowledging that "that" is the way, the only way, etc, it ever truly works, or is ever truly supposed to be, etc, but I am just not 100% totally and completely free of all sin yet, etc, but maybe I will be one day, etc...

I've even said and told others on here, that if it is not Him doing it 100% totally and completely in me, and very little to none of me, etc, then I want nothing at all to do with it, etc, because, in my opinion, that's what breeds some of the most evil kinds of pride, etc...

So I guess I'm just waiting on that day I guess, etc, but I do feel like I have faith that God eventually will, but all in His own good timing, etc, as there still may yet be a further purpose maybe left to it for me still maybe, IDK, etc, and that may be why I'm maybe not 100% totally and completely free of absolutely all of it yet maybe, IDK, but will continue to keep the faith either way to the end, and into the future to the end, etc...

Anyway, thank you very much, and...

God Bless You!

aiki · Jul 1, 2021

Neogaia777 said:
But I know and agree with you on the correct way to "do" it, etc, or go about it, etc, by having God and not me doing it, etc, acknowledging that "that" is the way, the only way, etc, it ever truly works, or is ever truly supposed to be, etc, but I am just not 100% totally and completely free of all sin yet, etc, but maybe I will be one day, etc...

I've even said and told others on here, that if it is not Him doing it 100% totally and completely in me, and very little to none of me, etc, then I want nothing at all to do with it, etc, because, in my opinion, that's what breeds some of the most evil kinds of pride, etc...

So I guess I'm just waiting on that day I guess, etc, but I do feel like I have faith that God eventually will, but all in His own good timing, etc, as there still may yet be a further purpose maybe left to it for me still maybe, IDK, etc, and that may be why I'm maybe not 100% totally and completely free of absolutely all of it yet maybe, IDK, but will continue to keep the faith either way to the end, and into the future to the end, etc...

Hey. Just reading through your exchange with biblelesson and wanted to comment on what you wrote in the quotation above. In the OP of this thread, I was focusing on the "reckoning" of faith in the spiritual identity all believers possess in Christ. It was from Romans 6 that I primarily made my observations about reckoning. But, you know, Paul, in his teaching in Romans 6, also takes up about half the chapter talking about surrender to God. From verse 13 onward to verse 22, Paul urges his readers to present themselves to God as bond-slaves (verse 22), servants of righteousness, which they have become as born-again children of God (verse 18). The two things - reckoning and surrender - go hand-in-hand. Together they are the Christian's means to victory over all sin.

As biblelesson has been saying, of the two, surrender to God's will and way is the greater "key" to overcoming sin. It's only in a life submitted to Him, lock, stock and barrel, that God is free to move powerfully. He doesn't ever force His transformation of a person, coercing them into a holy life. The Spirit-indwelt man must be yielding himself to the Spirit at every turn, agreeing in doing so to the Spirit's altering work in his life. This yielding must happen very consciously and frequently throughout every day. In my life, the submission of a minute ago may need to be repeated as the impulse to seek my own way rises within me, again and again. Sometimes, only seconds separate one act of submission from another as the force of habit and fleshly impulse pounds upon me. To my surprise - even still - it isn't in fighting with myself that freedom from my Self, from sin, comes, but in just staying consciously and persistently submitted to God. As I am, the Spirit does what only he can do and subtly and profoundly moves me into holy, Christ-centered living.

But, you know, this transformation the Spirit accomplishes in me is a progressive thing, his power is so incredible, so deep and subtle, that I hardly realize he's changing me. My growth as a Christian believer submitted to God has been very much the growth of a tree branch. You could sit, staring at a tree branch for a week, or even a month, and never actually see the branch grow. But its been growing nonetheless. So, too, the Christian who is living in submission to God, by faith reckoning themselves "dead to sin and alive unto God through Jesus Christ." Often, only in looking back do I see that God has done as He has promised to do and in response to my submission to Him has changed my desires, my thinking, and my behaviour.

I was of the view for a very long time that I had to make changes for God. He told me in His word what He wanted from me and it was up to me to give it to Him. I would exert myself as much as possible, restraining myself, reining myself in, corralling my desires, stuffing down my selfish impulses, working hard to be holy and always ultimately failing to succeed. I could go for a bit in my own steam and this would provoke me to think I was on the right track with God but, sooner or later, I would fall again into sin. It took many years of trying to walk this way with God before I finally just got tired of the cycle of sin>confession>sin>confession and turned to God in deep conviction of my utter inability to live as He wanted me to and threw myself on Him entirely, knowing, really believing, that He had to change me.
In this place before God, keenly aware of my impotence, my terrible weakness, God confronted me with the truth: In all of my struggling, I had never lived in consistent, persistent surrender to Him. He showed me in His word that my walk with Him can only really happen when I am surrendered to Him at every turn. So, I did; I submitted myself to Him. There were no spiritual "fireworks," no sudden wrenching of my heart in a new, godly direction, no overt sign God had even heard my prayer of submission. I had to walk by faith - reckon on - the promise of God to act in response to my prayer of submission. As I did, I began to notice that crossroads of choice to follow God's way or my own, met with my submission to God, always moved me along God's road, but in such a subtle, natural manner that I often didn't realize I had moved from the crossroads down God's "narrow way." This subtle, natural movement in God's direction surprised me - a lot. I had been raised to believe I did most of the work of creating a godly life; that it was 98% me and 2% God. When I ran out of my own strength, then I turned to God for a bit of help. And this approach was, of course, full of strain, of digging deep and "being a man," of doing for God. I framed my experience as a Christian with words like "trying," "striving," "working," and "laboring." It was exhausting and frustrating and, in the end, a failure. What's worse, my effort was also dishonoring to God; for it tried to do by human means what only God can do, a replacement of God with Self.

So, I get it, Neogaia777. I get the "Tried that. Didn't work," thing. God's way seems too...easy; there isn't enough of me helping God's transformation of me along. But, to the degree I contribute my Self-effort to God's work, to that same degree I foul the result. I tried to help God often, and the result was always tiring - and a mess. After years of working things out with God, finally understanding what He had told me plainly in His word, I see that my "job" as a Christian is to do three basic things: receive, remain and reflect.

I receive the transforming work of God by submission to Him. (1 Peter 5:6; James 4:6-7; John 15:5)

I remain by faith in the work and promises of God to me. (Romans 6:11; 2 Peter 1:3-4; Hebrews 10:38)

I reflect in my living the work God has done in me. I work out what God has first worked in to me. (Philippians 2:12-13; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Ephesians 3:16)

Neogaia777 · Jul 1, 2021

aiki said:
Hey. Just reading through your exchange with biblelesson and wanted to comment on what you wrote in the quotation above. In the OP of this thread, I was focusing on the "reckoning" of faith in the spiritual identity all believers possess in Christ. It was from Romans 6 that I primarily made my observations about reckoning. But, you know, Paul, in his teaching in Romans 6, also takes up about half the chapter talking about surrender to God. From verse 13 onward to verse 22, Paul urges his readers to present themselves to God as bond-slaves (verse 22), servants of righteousness, which they have become as born-again children of God (verse 18). The two things - reckoning and surrender - go hand-in-hand. Together they are the Christian's means to victory over all sin.

As biblelesson has been saying, of the two, surrender to God's will and way is the greater "key" to overcoming sin. It's only in a life submitted to Him, lock, stock and barrel, that God is free to move powerfully. He doesn't ever force His transformation of a person, coercing them into a holy life. The Spirit-indwelt man must be yielding himself to the Spirit at every turn, agreeing in doing so to the Spirit's altering work in his life. This yielding must happen very consciously and frequently throughout every day. In my life, the submission of a minute ago may need to be repeated as the impulse to seek my own way rises within me, again and again. Sometimes, only seconds separate one act of submission from another as the force of habit and fleshly impulse pounds upon me. To my surprise - even still - it isn't in fighting with myself that freedom from my Self, from sin, comes, but in just staying consciously and persistently submitted to God. As I am, the Spirit does what only he can do and subtly and profoundly moves me into holy, Christ-centered living.

But, you know, this transformation the Spirit accomplishes in me is a progressive thing, his power so incredible, so deep and subtle, that I hardly realize he's changing me. My growth as a Christian believer submitted to God has been very much the growth of a tree branch. You could sit, staring at a tree branch for a week, or even a month, and never actually see the branch grow. But its been growing nonetheless. So, too, the Christian who is living in submission to God, by faith reckoning themselves "dead to sin and alive unto God through Jesus Christ." Often, only in looking back do I see that God has done as He has promised to do and in response to my submission to Him has changed my desires, my thinking, and my behaviour.

I was of the view for a very long time that I had to make changes for God. He told me in His word what He wanted from me and it was up to me to give it to Him. I would exert myself as much as possible, restraining myself, reining myself in, corralling my desires, stuffing down my selfish impulses, working hard to be holy and always ultimately failing to succeed. I could go for a bit in my own steam and this would provoke me to think I was on the right track with God but, sooner or later, I would fall again into sin. It took many years of trying to walk this way with God before I finally just got tired of the cycle of sin>confession>sin>confession and turned to God in deep conviction of my utter inability to live as He wanted me to and threw myself on Him entirely, knowing, really believing, that He had to change me.
In this place before God, keenly aware of my impotence, my terrible weakness, God confronted me with the truth: In all of my struggling, I had never lived in consistent, persistent surrender to Him. He showed me in His word that my walk with Him can only really happen when I am surrendered to Him at every turn. So, I did; I submitted myself to Him. There were no spiritual "fireworks," no sudden wrenching of my heart in a new, godly direction, no overt sign God had even heard my prayer of submission. I had to walk by faith - reckon on - the promise of God to act in response to my prayer of submission. As I did, I began to notice that crossroads of choice to follow God's way or my own, met with my submission to God, always moved me along God's road, but in such a subtle, natural manner that I often didn't realize I had moved from the crossroads down God's "narrow way." This subtle, natural movement in God's direction surprised me - a lot. I had been raised to believe I did most of the work of creating a godly life; that it was 98% me and 2% God. When I ran out of my own strength, then I turned to God for a bit of help. And this approach was, of course, full of strain, of digging deep and "being a man," of doing for God. I framed my experience as a Christian with words like "trying," "striving," "working," and "laboring." It was exhausting and frustrating and, in the end, a failure. What's worse, my effort was also dishonoring to God; for it tried to do by human means what only God can do, a replacement of God with Self.

So, I get it, Neogaia777. I get the "Tried that. Didn't work," thing. God's way seems too...easy; there isn't enough of me helping God's transformation of me along. But, to the degree I contribute my Self-effort to God's work, to that same degree I foul the result. I tried to help God often, and the result was always tiring - and a mess. After years of working things out with God, finally understanding what He had told me plainly in His word, I see that my "job" as a Christian is to do three basic things: receive, remain and reflect.

I receive the transforming work of God by submission to Him. (1 Peter 5:6; James 4:6-7; John 15:5)

I remain by faith in the work and promises of God to me. (Romans 6:11; 2 Peter 1:3-4; Hebrews 10:38)

I reflect in my living the work God has done in me. I work out what God has first worked in to me. (Philippians 2:12-13; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Ephesians 3:16)

Thank you @aiki, I will have to ponder this for a little while, let it sink in, digest it...

And same with your words as well @biblelesson...

Thank you both.

God Bless!

aiki · Jul 21, 2021

Bump.

aiki · Nov 1, 2021

Bump.

The Great Reckoning: Living by Faith.

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