Purgatory

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,742
2,553
PA
✟271,879.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It is not about some sins, and not others. Christ bore sins for all who come to repentance, and salvation is made available through him.
of course He did. We ourselves could NEVER save ourselves from sin. But of course, purification (purgatory) isnt for punishment for unconfessed sin.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

PaulCyp1

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 4, 2018
1,075
849
78
Massachusetts
✟239,255.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Yes, there certainly are. The Scriptures tell us that Jesus Christ founded one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". That one Church teaches as binding truth that Purgatory exists, as a final place of purification for those who have not rejected salvation, but who are not sufficiently spiritually pure to enter Heaven. Therefore God Himself has said that it is so, if you believe what the Bible teaches. Incidentally, where does the Bible say that we have to find all of our beliefs in the Bible? That idea is an unbiblical tradition of men that no Christian on Earth ever heard of until a few hundred years ago. There was no such thing as a Bible for the first three and a half centuries of Christianity. Where did they get their beliefs? Right where Jesus said we would obtain find the fullness of His truth - in the teaching of His Church.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Ngodap
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,434
11,980
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,167,694.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
The Scriptures tell us that Jesus Christ founded one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". That one Church teaches as binding truth that Purgatory exists
No it doesn't. You seem to have confused the Church with Catholicism.
 
Upvote 0

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
4,507
921
America
Visit site
✟265,291.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
FredVB said:
God would justly remove all who are in the world from the world, all are sinners, and God would remove the world which has the curse from that, too. God is love, and as such, without being limited in it, sent the incarnation of Logos the Word with God who is God to the world, to lead any of those there showing his example to come to repentance turning from sin, to bear the sins, with his death on the cross, and to make available salvation with eternal life in him. Those in him can then be delivered from this world cursed with all the sin, and creation still groans for the deliverance which comes with the revealing of the redemption. Purification from sin comes through Christ, which is what we could not ever accomplish through what we do or go through ourselves if even through eternity. In Christ all are removed from sinful nature right away and meet him when dying in the body still of this world. Judgment on all left unrepenting still comes, and there is no deliverance from that.

2 Peter 2:24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”

Isaiah 53:3-5 is quoted there.

It is not about some sins, and not others. Christ bore sins for all who come to repentance, and salvation is made available through him.

concretecamper said:
that doesn't address my question. Anyone else?

Why does it not?

concretecamper said:
of course He did. We ourselves could NEVER save ourselves from sin. But of course, purification (purgatory) isnt for punishment for unconfessed sin.

You seem to have another understanding of purification that I don't know about.

Albion said:
You have to understand, though, that the Church which invented Purgatory and defined it in the way that the Late Middle Ages saw things, was asserting that eternal salvation is assured for all who trust in Christ but not that there is no temporal penalty to be paid for what they had done or left undone.

If there were no such state in the afterlife as Purgatory, Mother Teresa and Francis of Assisi would enter eternity on the same grounds as the brutal dictator who made a deathbed confession and came to Christ as his Lord and Savior. If that were the case, God would be merciful but unjust (it is argued).

There can be consequences we face in this world for wrong things we are doing, that God willingly permits, if you want to call that penalty. But this, which we always have in this world, is what God has meant to deliver us from, through Christ, with our repentance and coming to Christ in faith.

From the biblical gospel, that has salvation through Christ revealed, any who repent and are in Christ come to the blessings in heaven, whether a brutal dictator coming to repentance, or Mother Teresa coming to repentance, or Saint Francis coming to repentance. God is never unjust, even with that, Jesus Christ bore everything for justice for any and all of us who are saved through him according to faith we respond with. There can still be more to those being recognized for good works of faith.
 
Upvote 0

PaulCyp1

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 4, 2018
1,075
849
78
Massachusetts
✟239,255.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Jesus Christ founded one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". That one Church teaches as binding truth that Purgatory is a reality. Therefore Jesus Himself guarantees that this teaching is true. If a teaching of His Church is false, then He Himself was either a liar, or didn't know what He was talking about.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Ngodap
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Jesus Christ founded one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth"....

"The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth" does not equal "He will prevent any and all errors at all times."

:sigh:
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Major1
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,812
13,119
72
✟362,418.00
Faith
Non-Denom
"The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth" does not equal "He will prevent any and all errors at all times."

:sigh:

Nor does it mean that the Holy Spirit guides the particular leader of one branch of the Christian tree into all truth exclusively.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What is there that Jesus Christ could not do that Purgatory would be able to do for anyone? Can anyone believe there is any such thing Christ cannot do and Purgatory can do?

Payment is not made for forgiveness, payment is made for justice. Nonbelievers criticize belief in God, justifiably, over that mistaken idea that God requires payment for being forgiving.

In essence.....Purgatory says that what Jesus did...was not good enough!

IN ADDITION to His work we must then experience the Purgatory process in order to be saved.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You have to understand, though, that the Church which invented Purgatory and defined it in the way that the Late Middle Ages saw things, was asserting that eternal salvation is assured for all who trust in Christ but not that there is no temporal penalty to be paid for what they had done or left undone.

If there were no such state in the afterlife as Purgatory, Mother Teresa and Francis of Assisi would enter eternity on the same grounds as the brutal dictator who made a deathbed confession and came to Christ as his Lord and Savior. If that were the case, God would be merciful but unjust (it is argued).

A PARADOX????

Logical reasoning might scream contradiction! God cannot be both wholly merciful and just. If God is entirely merciful, He must let us evade the consequences of our sin, and He will not be just since sin goes unpunished. On the other hand, if God is fully just, He must punish our sins fully without holding back and that would mean that He is unmerciful!

How is this possible?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
God could, at this moment, remove all sin from the world. Because God has not done so does not mean God cannot. It is the Word of God that nothing unclean can enter Heaven and the purification before Heaven spoken of in the Bible is simply what Catholics call purgatory.

And what Catholics call Purgatory......IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE!

Your post show that you have a lot of Catholic education but very little Bible education.
IF God took away the sin of the world than He would be be a liar and if that is so then we would not be saved!!!!

If you would read more of the Bible instead of this forum you would be able to realize that God wants a relationship with us. Some of us do not care, and others do. Our ancestors, Adam and Eve, exercised their freedom of choice and disobeyed. God had warned them that if they chose to do that, they would deserve to die. They did exactly what God knew they would do and He then did what He said He would do. God was not surprised. He knew this was going to happen. As a result, God had already planned to send Jesus Christ to die for us so that those who wanted a close relationship with God could have one. The plan has been in place before the foundation of the world. Do you have a close relationship with God?

https://www.neverthirsty.org/seeking-god/searching-for-god/
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
A PARADOX????

Logical reasoning might scream contradiction! God cannot be both wholly merciful and just. If God is entirely merciful, He must let us evade the consequences of our sin, and He will not be just since sin goes unpunished. On the other hand, if God is fully just, He must punish our sins fully without holding back and that would mean that He is unmerciful!

How is this possible?

I hear you, but in that post of mine I was only attempting to explain what the thinking of the Roman Catholic Church concerning Purgatory has been.

But as was also noted previously, she has unofficially changed her mind about it after 500+ years of teaching this doctrine, meaning that in a little while there probably won't be much in the way of controversy surrounding it, much like what happened with Limbo. I never hear anyone talking about it anymore.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
God could, at this moment, remove all sin from the world. Because God has not done so does not mean God cannot.
However, FredVB (whose post you were replying to) was referring to punishment in Purgatory for unforgiven sins and also for ones already forgiven. He wasn't talking about God's forgiveness, which isn't what Purgatory supposedly exists in order to accomplish anyway.

It is the Word of God that nothing unclean can enter Heaven and the purification before Heaven spoken of in the Bible is simply what Catholics call purgatory.
...which means that when the sinner repents and throws himself upon God's mercy as Christ taught, he still faces punishment for committing the sins that were forgiven. Really?
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,742
2,553
PA
✟271,879.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
In essence.....Purgatory says that what Jesus did...was not good enough!

IN ADDITION to His work we must then experience the Purgatory process in order to be saved.
However, FredVB (whose post you were replying to) was referring to punishment in Purgatory for unforgiven sins and also for ones already forgiven. He wasn't talking about God's forgiveness, which isn't what Purgatory supposedly exists in order to accomplish anyway.


...which means that when the sinner repents and throws himself upon God's mercy as Christ taught, he still faces punishment for committing the sins that were forgiven. Really?
A bit of advice, it would be helpful to know what you are arguing against. It is laughable when you incorrectly state what purgatory is and then argue against it.:doh:
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,812
13,119
72
✟362,418.00
Faith
Non-Denom
A bit of advice, it would be helpful to know what you are arguing against. It is laughable when you incorrectly state what purgatory is and then argue against it.:doh:

Given the fact that sincere Catholics, including clergy, disagree with each other concerning Purgatory, it ought not come as any surprise that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is surprisingly vague at this point in time. As Albion has correctly pointed out, Purgatory seems to be headed in the same direction as Limbo in Catholic theology.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,742
2,553
PA
✟271,879.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Given the fact that sincere Catholics, including clergy, disagree with each other concerning Purgatory, it ought not come as any surprise that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is surprisingly vague at this point in time.
I am sorry that the CCC is too vague for you. It doesnt mean that anyone here is free to fill in the blanks with their novel idea. Shows lack of integrity.
As Albion has correctly pointed out, Purgatory seems to be headed in the same direction as Limbo in Catholic theology.
I dont think I've seen 1 correct post of hos when it comes to Purgatory. So follow along at your own risk.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Ngodap
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,812
13,119
72
✟362,418.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I am sorry that the CCC is too vague for you. It doesnt mean that anyone here is free to fill in the blanks with their novel idea. Shows lack of integrity.
I dont think I've seen 1 correct post of hos when it comes to Purgatory. So follow along at your own risk.

Therefore, feel free to fill in the blanks for us and enlighten us all. Thank you.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Given the fact that sincere Catholics, including clergy, disagree with each other concerning Purgatory, it ought not come as any surprise that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is surprisingly vague at this point in time.
Correct. And we have to understand also that the Church cannot simply reverse itself about Purgatory, since it was the creation of a Church council and, also, because this is the Church that says it never changes and/or never has changed. As a result, the doctrine that was taught as true for half a millennium will not be flatly reversed or eliminated, but it will die a slow death, beginning with public pronouncements by clergy and the newer versions of the Catechism, describing Purgatory in imprecise and incomplete terms.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,812
13,119
72
✟362,418.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Correct. And we have to understand also that the Church cannot simply reverse itself about Purgatory, since it was the creation of a Church council and, also, because this is the Church that says it never changes and/or never has changed. As a result, the doctrine that was taught as true for half a millennium will not be flatly reversed or eliminated, but it will die a slow death, beginning with public pronouncements by clergy and the newer versions of the Catechism, describing Purgatory in imprecise and incomplete terms.

As someone has once said, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with obfuscation."
 
Upvote 0