The Mystery of the Church Age

Clare73 said:

And it remains for you to show that it is not.
Assertion without Biblical demonstration is assertion without Biblical merit.

And so. . .the authority of all the word of God written, as well as the Biblical texts (above) which
teach no temporal age after the church remain unaddressed by you.

Non-responsive.

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I was being cordial with you by agreeing to disagree.

U will realized after a while that most people don’t let scripture get in the way of what they already want to believe.

Clare73 said:

1) The NT church is the mystery of the Gentiles now being included in the one olive tree of God's people, both OT and NT; i.e., the church (ekklesia, Acts 7:38), whose roots are the OT patriarchs (Ephesians 3:3-6).
The mystery of the the church is that all God's people, both Jew and Gentile, OT and NT, are the one body of Christ (Ephesians 2:15), there is no separation in God's redeemed people.

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3) The church is the fulfillment of the ages (1 Corinthians 10:11).
4) The church is the last times and end of the ages (1 Peter 1:20; Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 9:26).
There is no other age after the church.
There is only Jesus' second coming and the final judgment.

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And according to Jesus, and to the revelation Jesus personally gave Paul,
there is no separation between the gospels and the church,
just as there is no separation between believing Jews and believing Gentiles (Ephesians 2:15).

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Guojing said:

I was being cordial with you by agreeing to disagree.

U will realized after a while that most people don’t let scripture get in the way of what they already want to believe.

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Strawman. . .

I guess I have to accept this as your reason for not addressing the above Scriptures.

Non-responsive, again.

Clare73 said:

I guess I have to accept this as your reason for not addressing the above Scriptures.

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And according to Jesus, and to the revelation Jesus personally gave Paul,
there is no separation between the gospels and the church,
just as there is no separation between believing Jews and believing Gentiles (Ephesians 2:15).

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You are already making a false linkage between the bold sentence and the sentence following it.

There is no Jew and gentile in the Body of Christ, yes. That does not allow you to conclude that there is therefore also no separation between the Matthew-John and the Body of Christ.

Guojing said:

You are already making a false linkage between the bold sentence and the sentence following it.

There is no Jew and gentile in the Body of Christ, yes. That does not allow you to conclude that there is therefore also no
separation between the Matthew-John and the Body of Christ.

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So there is separation of Jew and Gentile in the church, but no separation of Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ? Gads!

"You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church." (Matthew 16:18)

So the church is Christ's own work, his own body, his bride, he himself being its chief cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20), however, none of his revelation, teaching or words in the gospels are for his own personal work, his own church, his own body and bride?

You're kidding, right?

You can show this from the NT Scriptures, where?

The Church is the promised kingdom -- Luke 1:32-33; Matthew 12:28; John 18:36;
Luke 17:20-21

The Church is the kingdom of God -- Matthew 21:43

The Church (kingdom) has been taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles -- Matthew 21:43, Matthew 8:12; Luke 13:28

There is only one flock and one shepherd -- John 10:16

Jesus did not die for those whom the Father did not give him; i.e., those outside his body, the Church (John 17:9, 2, 6, 24, John 6:37, 39, John 10:29), just as the sacrifices of the OT were offered for the people of God only, and not those outside.

Clare73 said:

"You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church." (Matthew 16:18)

So the church is Christ's own work, his own body, his bride, he himself being its chief cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20), however, none of his revelation, teaching or words in the gospels are for his own personal work, his own church, his own body and bride?

You're kidding, right?

You can show this from the NT Scriptures, where?

The Church is the promised kingdom -- Luke 1:32-33; Matthew 12:28; John 18:36;
Luke 17:20-21

The Church is the kingdom of God -- Matthew 21:43

The Church (kingdom) has been taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles -- Matthew 21:43, Matthew 8:12; Luke 13:28

There is only one flock and one shepherd -- John 10:16

Jesus did not die for those whom the Father did not give him; i.e., those outside his body, the Church (John 17:9, 2, 6, 24, John 6:37, 39, John 10:29), just as the sacrifices of the OT were offered for the people of God only.

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As I already said to you, you start off with the axiom that "Jesus and Paul said the exact same thing, to the exact same group of people", and you proceed to understand all the scripture you are quoting to me, based on that axiom.

You just refuse, or unable, to see it.

Are you aware of Matthew 10:5 and Matthew 15:24, regarding who Jesus was sent to, in his first coming?

Guojing said:

As I already said to you, you start off with the axiom that "Jesus and Paul said the exact same thing, to the exact same group of people", and you proceed to understand all the scripture you are quoting to me, based on that axiom.

You just refuse, or unable, to see it.

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Strawman. ..

You're kidding, right?
You start off with the "axiom" that the meaning of words is not consistent, that meanings change depending on the text.
In what universe?

You can show this from the NT Scriptures, where?

That's a fail. . .Assertion without Biblical demonstration is assertion without Biblical merit.

You can't blame Paul for the following, all the Scriptures are the words of Jesus:

"You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church." (Matthew 16:18)

So the church is Christ's own work, his own flock, however, none of his revelation, teaching or words in the gospels are for his own personal work, his own church, his own flock.

The Church is the promised kingdom -- Luke 1:32-33; Matthew 12:28; John 18:36;
Luke 17:20-21

The Church is the kingdom of God -- Matthew 21:43

The Church (kingdom) has been taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles -- Matthew 21:43, Matthew 8:12; Luke 13:28

There is only one flock and one shepherd -- John 10:16

Jesus did not die for those whom the Father did not give him; i.e., those outside his body, the Church (John 17:9, 2, 6, 24, John 6:37, 39, John 10:29), just as the sacrifices of the OT were offered for the people of God only, and not those outside.

Clare73 said:

You're kidding, right?
You can show this from the NT Scriptures, where?

That's a fail. . .Assertion without Biblical demonstration is assertion without Biblical merit.

You can't blame Paul for the following, all the Scriptures are the words of Jesus:

"You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church." (Matthew 16:18)

So the church is Christ's own work, his own flock, however, none of his revelation, teaching or words in the gospels are for his own personal work, his own church, his own flock.

The Church is the promised kingdom -- Luke 1:32-33; Matthew 12:28; John 18:36;
Luke 17:20-21

The Church is the kingdom of God -- Matthew 21:43

The Church (kingdom) has been taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles -- Matthew 21:43, Matthew 8:12; Luke 13:28

There is only one flock and one shepherd -- John 10:16

Jesus did not die for those whom the Father did not give him; i.e., those outside his body, the Church (John 17:9, 2, 6, 24, John 6:37, 39, John 10:29), just as the sacrifices of the OT were offered for the people of God only, and not those outside.

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Notice I used the term "Body of Christ" instead of church in my replies to you?

Church means "called out assembly", and yes it is found even in the OT.

"Body of Christ" is a mystery that was revealed first to the apostle Paul.

What you are assuming is that church is equivalent to Body of Christ, but they are not.

Guojing said:

Notice I used the term "Body of Christ" instead of church in my replies to you?
Church means "called out assembly", and yes it is found even in the OT.
"Body of Christ" is a mystery that was revealed first to the apostle Paul.
What you are assuming is that church is equivalent to Body of Christ, but they are not.

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The "called-out assembly" (ekklesia, church) are the people of God, both OT (Acts 7:38) and NT (Matthew 16:18),
the one olive tree of both Jews and Gentiles (Romans 11:17-23).
The gospels neither report nor present any such actual NT assemblies, only that Jesus will (future) build his church, the beginning of which we find in Acts on Pentecost.

Paul, the Apostle--who received his teaching from Jesus Christ personally, in the third heaven
(2 Corinthians 12:1-5), revelation so surpassingly great that he was given a thorn in the
flesh to keep him from becoming conceited--is in disagreement with your notion that
the church and the body of Christ are not the same:

Christ's body is the church -- Colossians 1:24
the Church which is his body, the fullness of him -- Ephesians 1:22-23
Christ is the head of the body, the church -- Colossians 1:18
Christ is the head of the church -- Ephesians 5:23
you are the body of Christ -- 1 Corinthians 12:27
the head of every man is Christ -- 1 Corinthians 11:3

So according to dispensationalism, we have:
two second comings,
two first resurrections,
two last trumpets,
two temporal Messianic kingdoms,
two final world battles,
two final judgments. . .and now we have
two gospels, one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles, and
two churches (peoples), one the body of Christ (Gentiles) and one not (Jews).
What's next. . .two atonements, two salvations, two faiths, two Christ's. . .stay tuned for a dispensationalist near you.

What happened to one flock and one shepherd?

Because dispensationalism teaches an extra coming of Christ (before the "tribulation"), nowhere found in the NT, it must multiply events and things which are the same, so as not to contradict the Bible's location of those events with the coming of Christ after the "tribulation" (church age).

Nor does the Bible anywhere teach seven dispensations. Nowhere do Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter or Jude even mention such a doctrine. Dispensationalism supposes that somehow they were ignorant of it, or they forgot to tell us about it.

The Bible knows only two dispensations (Hebrews 10:9) since Adam (Hebrews 11:4);
the Old (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 8:13) and
the New (Luke 22:20; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Hebrews 8:6, Hebrews 9:15),
both of grace (Genesis 15:6; Galatians 3:17-18, Hebrews 11:1-40),
the former a dispensation of types and shadows, and
the latter a dispensation of the realities themselves (Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 10:1).

The doctrine of seven dispensations is a doctrine of man (of his own invention that he is so fond of and wedded to, thinking it is the doctrine of God because it is so agreeable to his own fancy), nowhere found in the word of God.
And if the Bible doesn't teach it, then we don't know it (1 Corinthians 4:6).

Clare73 said:

Paul, the Apostle--who received his teaching from Jesus Christ personally, in the third heaven
(2 Corinthians 12:1-5), revelation so surpassingly great that he was given a thorn in the
flesh to keep him from becoming conceited--is in disagreement with you:

Christ's body is the church -- Colossians 1:24
the Church which is his body, the fullness of him -- Ephesians 1:22-23
Christ is the head of the body, the church -- Colossians 1:18
Christ is the head of the church -- Ephesians 5:23
you are the body of Christ -- 1 Corinthians 12:27
the head of every man is Christ -- 1 Corinthians 11:3

So according to dispensationalism, we have:
two second comings,
two first resurrections,
two last trumpets,
two bodies of Christ,
two temporal Messianic kingdoms,
two final world battles,
two final judgments. . .and now we have
two churches, one the body of Christ (Scriptures above) and one not (of dispensationalism).
All that is left is two Christ's. . .stay tuned for a dispensationalist near you.

Because dispensationalism teaches an extra coming of Christ (before the "tribulation"), nowhere found in the NT, it must multiply events and things which are the same, so as not to contradict the Bible's location of those events with the coming of Christ after the "tribulation" (church age).

Nor does the Bible anywhere teach seven dispensations. Nowhere do Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter or Jude even mention such a doctrine. Dispensationalism supposes that somehow they were ignorant of it, or they forgot to tell us about it.

The Bible knows only two dispensations (Hebrews 10:9) since Adam (Hebrews 11:4);
the Old (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 8:13) and
the New (Luke 22:20; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Hebrews 8:6, Hebrews 9:15),
both of grace (Genesis 15:6; Galatians 3:17-18, Hebrews 11:1-40),
the former a dispensation of types and shadows, and
the latter a dispensation of the realities themselves (Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 10:1).

The doctrine of seven dispensations is a doctrine of man (of his own invention that he is so fond of and wedded to, thinking it is the doctrine of God because it is so agreeable to his own fancy), nowhere found in the word of God.
And if the Bible doesn't teach it, then we don't know it (1 Corinthians 4:6).

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The Bible does not teach the trinity as well. That term is nowhere found in scripture.

But do U know it?

Clare73 said:

Christ's body is the church -- Colossians 1:24
the Church which is his body, the fullness of him -- Ephesians 1:22-23
Christ is the head of the body, the church -- Colossians 1:18
Christ is the head of the church -- Ephesians 5:23
you are the body of Christ -- 1 Corinthians 12:27
the head of every man is Christ -- 1 Corinthians 11:3

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Guojing said:

The Bible does not teach the trinity as well. That term is nowhere found in scripture.

But do U know it?

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Likewise with his sovereignty, which nowhere is it stated, "God is sovereign," but it can be clearly and unequivocally demonstrated from Scripture.

And that is what you must do with separation of the gospels from the church (gag!).

So where is this assertion unequivocally demonstrated in NT teaching?

Clare73 said:

Likewise with his sovereignty, which nowhere is it stated, "God is sovereign," but it can be clearly and unequivocally demonstrated from Scripture.

And that is what you must do with separation of the gospels from the church (gag!).

So where is this assertion unequivocally demonstrated in NT teaching?

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So just because something is not explicitly mentioned in scripture, it does not mean it is not valid doctrine.

That was all I was saying.

Guojing said:

So just because something is not explicitly mentioned in scripture, it does not mean it is not valid doctrine.

That was all I was saying.

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It means that separation of the gospels from the church, the body of Christ, as well as seven dispensations, though not specifically stated in Scripture, are not valid if they cannot be clearly and unequivocally demonstrated from Scripture, which you have come nowhere even close to doing.

Non-responsive.

Clare73 said:

It means that separation of the gospels from the church, as well as seven dispensations, though not specifically stated in Scripture, are not valid if they cannot be clearly and unequivocally demonstrated from Scripture, which you have come nowhere even close to doing.

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You do realized that what is clear and unequivocal can differ depending on who the receiver is?

Christ's body is the church -- Colossians 1:24
the Church which is his body, the fullness of him -- Ephesians 1:22-23
Christ is the head of the body, the church -- Colossians 1:18
Christ is the head of the church -- Ephesians 5:23
you are the body of Christ -- 1 Corinthians 12:27
the head of every man is Christ -- 1 Corinthians 11:3

Click to expand...

Guojing said:

You do realized that what is clear and unequivocal can differ depending on who the receiver is?

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Straw man. . .

The issue is: your notion of the church not being the body of Christ contradicts explicit NT teaching.

The issue is: your notion that the gospels are separate from the Gentile church, and are for the Jews only, is everywhere contradicted by Jesus in the NT.

On what authority do you seek to unseat clear and unequivocal NT teaching in the Scriptures above,
as well as the Scriptures below where your notion is in complete disagreement with Jesus who says that
--he was sent to the world, not just to the Jews (John 17:18),
--his gospel will be taken away from the Jews and given to a nation/people (Gentiles) who will produce its fruit (Matthew 21:43),
--his disciples were to take his gospel to all nations, not just to the Jews, making disciples of them (Matthew 28:19),
--the Temple was to be a house of prayer for the nations, not just for the Jews (Mark 11:17),
--his gospel was to be preached to all nations, not just to the Jews (Mark 13:10),
--repentance and forgiveness of sins would be preached in his name to all nations, not just to the Jews (Luke 24:47),
--his gospel is to be preached throughout the whole world, not just to the Jews (Matthew 26:13),
--he tells his gospel to the world, not just to the Jews (John 8:26),
--he was a light to the world, not just to the Jews (John 12:46),
--he was an example of love and obedience to the Father for the world, not just for the Jews (John 14:31),
--the unity of the apostles was to be a witness to the world, not just to the Jews, that he was sent by God (John 17:21, 23)
--he came into the world to testify to the truth, and everyone, on the side of truth, not just the Jews, listens to him (John 18:37).

Jesus everywhere rejects your notion that his gospel is only for/to the Jews, and thereby makes his gospel for/to the whole world, which gospel Peter, James and John took to the Jews, and Paul took to the Gentiles.

Both your notions, the church is not the body of Christ and the gospels are only for the Jews, are completely contrary to the teaching of Jesus and Paul.

Guojing said:

Notice I used the term "Body of Christ" instead of church in my replies to you?

Church means "called out assembly", and yes it is found even in the OT.

"Body of Christ" is a mystery that was revealed first to the apostle Paul.

What you are assuming is that church is equivalent to Body of Christ, but they are not.

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The body is the church according to (Eph. 1:22,23) (Col. 1:18,24).

Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body,

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church:...

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Body = Church

The body of Christ is the church of Christ. (Rom. 16:16) (Eph.4:12)

Nova2216 said:

The body is the church according to (Eph. 1:22,23) (Col. 1:18,24).

Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body,

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church:...

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Body = Church

The body of Christ is the church of Christ. (Rom. 16:16) (Eph.4:12)

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The body of Christ can be also a called out assembly, yes.

But I am saying they are not equivalent terms.

So when Jesus made Peter the head of the "church" in the 4 gospels, he was not referring to the Body of Christ, which was a mystery not revealed until Paul

Clare73 said:

The issue is your notion of the church not being the body of Christ contradicts explicit NT teaching.

The issue is your notion that the gospels are separate from the Gentile church, being for the Jews only, is everywhere contradicted by Jesus in the NT.

On what authority do you seek to unseat clear and unequivocal NT teaching in the Scriptures above
and the Scriptures below where your notion is in complete disagreement with Jesus who says that
-he was sent to the world, not just to the Jews (John 17:18),
-his gospel will be taken away from the Jews and given to a nation/people (Gentiles) who will produce its fruit (Matthew 21:43),
-his disciples were to take his gospel to all nations, not just to the Jews, making disciples of them (Matthew 28:19),
-the Temple was to be a house of prayer for the nations, not just for the Jews (Mark 11:17),
-his gospel was to be preached to all nations, not just to the Jews (Mark 13:10),
-repentance and forgiveness of sins would be preached in his name to all nations, not just to the Jews (Luke 24:47),
-his gospel is to be preached throughout the whole world, not just to the Jews (Matthew 26:13),
-he tells his gospel to the world, not just to the Jews (John 8:26),
-he was a light to the world, not just to the Jews (John 12:46),
-he was an example of love and obedience to the Father for the world, not just for the Jews (John 14:31),
-the unity of the apostles was to be a witness to the world, not just to the Jews, that he was sent by God (John 17:21, 23)
-he came into the world to testify to the truth, and everyone, on the side of truth, not just the Jews, listens to him (John 18:37).

Jesus everywhere rejects your notion that his gospel is only for/to the Jews, and thereby makes his gospel for/to the whole world, which gospel Peter, James and John took to the Jews, and Paul took to the Gentiles.

Both your notions, the church is not the body of Christ and the gospels are only for the Jews, are completely contrary to the teaching of Jesus and Paul.

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I understand that you don't want to be convinced.

I am fine with that. Most people are not discussing bible doctrine to change their minds. Let's move on.

Guojing said:

I understand that you don't want to be convinced.

I am fine with that. Most people are not discussing bible doctrine to change their minds. Let's move on.

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Straw man. . .

Convinced of what? That Jesus lied? That Paul lied?

I want to know on what authority do you overturn the teachings of Jesus and Paul, quoted in my post in the above post, for the sake of your own contra-Biblical notions.

Non-responsive, again.

Guojing said:

The body of Christ can be also a called out assembly, yes.

But I am saying they are not equivalent terms.

So when Jesus made Peter the head of the "church" in the 4 gospels, he was not referring to the Body of Christ, which was a mystery not revealed until Paul

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I believe the Holy Spirit spoke the very same message each time He led the apostles to preach the word of God. (Mt.10:20) (Jn 14:26) (1Cor.1:10) (Phil. 3:16-19)

I do not believe the scriptures teach Peter is the head of the church of Christ.

Jesus is the Head of the church (or body) according to (Eph. 1:22,23) (Col. 1:18,24).

Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Nova2216 said:

I believe the Holy Spirit spoke the very same message each time He led the apostles to preach the word of God. (Mt.10:20) (Jn 14:26) (1Cor.1:10) (Phil. 3:16-19)

I do not believe the scriptures teach Peter is the head of the church of Christ.

Jesus is the Head of the church (or body) according to (Eph. 1:22,23) (Col. 1:18,24).

Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

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Yes, Jesus is the head of the Body of Christ, I agree with that.

I am saying that there are also churches before the Body of Christ (Matthew 16:18), and these 2 terms are not equivalent

As for your claim that

the Holy Spirit spoke the very same message each time He led the apostles to preach the word of God. (Mt.10:20) (Jn 14:26) (1Cor.1:10) (Phil. 3:16-19)

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we can agree to disagree. There would be no need for the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, and Galatians, if you claim was true.