Where DO people get the "secret rapture" doctrine from?

CleanSoul · Apr 27, 2021

Timtofly said:
the church failed

The Church doesn't fail, man does.

Timtofly said:
The sheep and goats are not the final judgment.

Your post shows a perfect example of perspicuity. Some seem to have this belief that whatever they, as individuals, think the Bible says, is what it says, because they think it. Like the Bible is easy to understand. There is a lot of self-interpretation among some Christians. Again, why not let Revelation be a mystery, instead of a puzzle to solve.

Spiritual Jew · Apr 27, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
But how do you reconcile 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 with 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 being both after the Millennium? For me: This sounds like Paul is revealing something new here. He says behold, I show you a mystery (1 Corinthians 15:51). The flesh and blood resurrection of the dead is not a new mystery. It was taught even in the Old Testament. However, the resurrection of the dead in the Rapture to be like that of angels of God in Heaven does sound like something new. Why are the saints being taken up to meet the Lord in the air? Are they going to be in Heaven for eternity or on a New Earth for eternity?

The mystery is that we all, including the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain unto His coming, will be changed to have incorruptible and immortal bodies. That is not something mentioned anywhere in the Old Testament.

What exactly do you think is specifically mentioned within 1 Thess 4:15-18 or 1 Cor 15:50-55 which would prevent that event from happening after the thousand years? Doesn't 1 Cor 15:26 say that the last enemy to be defeated is death? Doesn't 1 Cor 15:50-54 tell us when death is defeated when it indicates that death will be swallowed up in victory at the last trumpet?

Ligurian · Apr 27, 2021

throughfireytrial said:
We can all agree that there cannot be true contradiction in Scripture. At times there appears to be contradiction to us which flags some misunderstanding on our part. Thessalonians uses clear language to depict the Return of Christ/The Judgement Day/The Great Day of the Lord...in my opinion. Revelation is just that, a Revelation and one cannot easily determine what is being said because of the picture language and riddling therein...revelations must be interpreted. So, the careful way to go about this is to accept the black and white Truths and pray about interpretation of Revelation and God will come to you with insight if you wait upon the Lord and do not rush ahead.
I write this to you because I see you come to a conclusion that Thessalonians is not fitting in with your white Horse interpretation...right? I on the other hand would say accept Thessalonians and prayerfully ponder Revelation a bit longer.

CleanSoul said:
Yes, and be prepared to never understand it until it happens, whatever it is that happens, which probably will not be in our lifetime. And why spend so much time and energy with this impossible puzzle? Let it be what it is; a mystery.

Revelation isn't a mystery. The book is unsealed except for what the thunders say. The only place Jesus says the word mystery is in this verse below...

Matt.13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

... and verses in Revelation where the mysteries are also explained... just as the parables were explained to the Disciples. And we know which of the Prophets to be paying attention to because they are the ones Jesus quotes or mentions by name. Jesus didn't leave us as orphans, since we have the Holy Spirit who will teach us these things and remind us of what Jesus said.

However, people thinking that Rome is the beast... when, right there in Revelation God plainly says Rome is the only one that can NOT be the beast... I don't think I've ever been able to show what I see to the Rome-beast people. You either see it or you don't.

throughfiierytrial · Apr 27, 2021

Ligurian said:
Revelation isn't a mystery. The book is unsealed except for what the thunders say. The only place Jesus says the word mystery is in this verse below...

Matt.13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

... and verses in Revelation where the mysteries are also explained... just as the parables were explained to the Disciples. And we know which of the Prophets to be paying attention to because they are the ones Jesus quotes or mentions by name. Jesus didn't leave us as orphans, since we have the Holy Spirit who will teach us these things and remind us of what Jesus said.

However, people thinking that Rome is the beast... when, right there in Revelation God plainly says Rome is the only one that can NOT be the beast... I don't think I've ever been able to show what I see to the Rome-beast people. You either see it or you don't.

I agree, it is not a mystery. Yet, it remains one to those who do not yet understand it...it is not a literal book. I was suggesting that Bible Highlighter look at the Revelation interpretation more carefully and see the Thessalonians for what it is...a literal account of the Judgement Day.
Not all the parables are explained...but I/we can "get it"!

Ligurian · Apr 27, 2021

throughfireytrial said:
I agree, it is not a mystery. Yet, it remains one to those who do not yet understand it...it is not a literal book. I was suggesting that Bible Highlighter look at the Revelation interpretation more carefully and see the Thessalonians for what it is...a literal account of the Judgement Day.
Not all the parables are explained...but I/we can "get it"!

I think Revelation is very literal. But some of the things/critters are obviously not physical... "something like" terminology tells us when that happens... just as it does in any other book.

When I ask others how they fit Paul's stuff into Revelation, they don't answer me. So I pretty much think it can't be done. I use Matthew and John to interpret Revelation.

Jamdoc · Apr 27, 2021

Ligurian said:
Revelation isn't a mystery. The book is unsealed except for what the thunders say. The only place Jesus says the word mystery is in this verse below...

Matt.13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

... and verses in Revelation where the mysteries are also explained... just as the parables were explained to the Disciples. And we know which of the Prophets to be paying attention to because they are the ones Jesus quotes or mentions by name. Jesus didn't leave us as orphans, since we have the Holy Spirit who will teach us these things and remind us of what Jesus said.

However, people thinking that Rome is the beast... when, right there in Revelation God plainly says Rome is the only one that can NOT be the beast... I don't think I've ever been able to show what I see to the Rome-beast people. You either see it or you don't.

There's a few mysterious symbols.
The Elders in particular.

throughfiierytrial · Apr 27, 2021

Ligurian said:
I think Revelation is very literal. But some of the things/critters are obviously not physical... "something like" terminology tells us when that happens... just as it does in any other book.

When I ask others how they fit Paul's stuff into Revelation, they don't answer me. So I pretty much think it can't be done. I use Matthew and John to interpret Revelation.

Interpreting Revelation requires knowledge of the entire Bible.

keras · Apr 27, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
But friend. You said the saints will have a spiritual body after the Millennium.

I did not and have never said that.

Bible Highlighter said:
Do you believe the last trump actually takes place at the end of the Millennium?

Yes.
It will be the Trumpet sound to raise all the dead for Judgment.

Bible Highlighter said:
If so, how does that work according to Scripture? It says in Revelation 20:4-5 that after the thousand years, they rest of the dead will live. This is same reference to being alive for those who lived during the thousand years.

Fail.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years was over.
NOT the same ref as for the Trib martyrs.

The time that Death is done away with, is after the Millennium, in the New Earth, Revelation 21:1-7
Until then, people will still die and no one will be 'glorified or become immortal. Any ideas or theories that people can go to heaven, which must mean to become a Spirit being, are false and cannot happen.

Jamdoc · Apr 28, 2021

keras said:
Any ideas or theories that people can go to heaven, which must mean to become a Spirit being, are false and cannot happen.

I guess Paul shouldn't have been wanting to depart so badly then if he's just going to lay in a grave for thousands of years unconscious instead of being with our Lord.

Philippians 1:21-24

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Guess these guys must still be in graves unconscious too then huh

Revelation 6:9-11

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

throughfiierytrial · Apr 28, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
But friend. You said the saints will have a spiritual body after the Millennium. Do you believe the last trump actually takes place at the end of the Millennium? If so, how does that work according to Scripture? It says in Revelation 20:4-5 that after the thousand years, they rest of the dead will live. This is same reference to being alive for those who lived during the thousand years.

Now, I do see the connection that “death is swallowed up in victory” (1 Corinthians 15:54) as being tied to “the last enemy to be destroyed is death” (1 Corinthians 15:26). I do see how this could be tied to death and hell being cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). It does appear to fit. So I can see how this makes sense from your interpretation on things.

But how do you reconcile 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 with 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 being both after the Millennium? For me: This sounds like Paul is revealing something new here. He says behold, I show you a mystery (1 Corinthians 15:51). The flesh and blood resurrection of the dead is not a new mystery. It was taught even in the Old Testament. However, the resurrection of the dead in the Rapture to be like that of angels of God in Heaven does sound like something new. Why are the saints being taken up to meet the Lord in the air? Are they going to be in Heaven for eternity or on a New Earth for eternity?

You say:
But friend. You said the saints will have a spiritual body after the Millennium. Do you believe the last trump actually takes place at the end of the Millennium? If so, how does that work according to Scripture? It says in Revelation 20:4-5 that after the thousand years, they rest of the dead will live. This is same reference to being alive for those who lived during the thousand years.

We disagree as to whether or not to take the 1000 years literally. After the 1000 the rest of the dead will live because this means eternal life not mortal life. Revelation and this is a revelation to John and believers...need interpretation...they are not literal as we see from Daniel.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 28, 2021

keras said:
I did not and have never said that.

Then I must have misunderstood your words.

You said:
Yes.
It will be the Trumpet sound to raise all the dead for Judgment.

Fail.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years was over.
NOT the same ref as for the Trib martyrs.

The time that Death is done away with, is after the Millennium, in the New Earth, Revelation 21:1-7
Until then, people will still die and no one will be 'glorified or become immortal. Any ideas or theories that people can go to heaven, which must mean to become a Spirit being, are false and cannot happen.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I do like to look at things with a fresh pair of eyes just in case I may not be looking at things correctly.

If you have a chronology of your version of the End Times, that would be most helpful.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 28, 2021

throughfireytrial said:
You say:
But friend. You said the saints will have a spiritual body after the Millennium. Do you believe the last trump actually takes place at the end of the Millennium? If so, how does that work according to Scripture? It says in Revelation 20:4-5 that after the thousand years, they rest of the dead will live. This is same reference to being alive for those who lived during the thousand years.

We disagree as to whether or not to take the 1000 years literally. After the 1000 the rest of the dead will live because this means eternal life not mortal life. Revelation and this is a revelation to John and believers...need interpretation...they are not literal as we see from Daniel.

There is no indication in the text that suggests that the 1,000 year reign is a metaphor. The standard rule of reading is that something is literal unless the context and or the wording suggests it is a metaphor. I imagine people can read the death of Christ as a metaphor, but there would be no actual good reason to do so in that case, either. I believe that when a person allegorizes something that should normally be read literally, they are doing so because they don't like what it says.

sovereigngrace · Apr 28, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
There is no indication in the text that suggests that the 1,000 year reign is a metaphor. The standard rule of reading is that something is literal unless the context and or the wording suggests it is a metaphor. I imagine people can read the death of Christ as a metaphor, but there would be no actual good reason to do so in that case, either. I believe that when a person allegorizes something that should normally be read literally, they are doing so because they don't like what it says.

I do not agree with this. Pretribbers are always interpreting Scripture through the lens of their mistaken opinion of Revelation. They take a literal approach to an overwhelmingly symbolic book, thus the error of their position. What is more, they foist a faulty interpretation upon what the actual text states. Their hermeneutics are clearly flawed.

The reality is: we need to let clear and explicit Scripture interpret obscure and symbolic Scripture, not the other way around. We must note the setting, genre and context of the truth/verse you are studying and establish what the Holy Spirit is actually saying in the overall passage. Context is crucial in biblical interpretation. We need to establish whether it is literal, symbolic or parabolic, and who, what and when it relates to. Is it speaking of the past, present or future? Is it principally speaking to the people receiving it or is it speaking prophetically of an approaching event?

Timtofly · Apr 28, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
They were shown to be men and there is nothing in the text to indicate that they were morphing to appear like men. I believe angels can appear as men because that is what they naturally look like (Although anything is possible). Other angels are different. Jesus did not take on the nature of angels according to Scripture. This suggests that the angels could be human like in appearance. As for your implying that I believe that the angels at Sodom had only one mission in life: Where on Earth do you think I said anything like this? And what does that have to do with the idea that these angels looked like men?

Bible Highlighter said:
Where does the Bible say that angels appeared as men so as to interact with us? The Bible does not really say, so we cannot make absolute 100% conclusions that some angels were not in the natural appearance of men. In fact, some angels appeared as men, so it is very possible that is their true form (and thus that would mean they were also were made in the image of God).

These were angels at Sodom. Not men acting as angels, created just for that one purpose of destroying Sodom.

Timtofly · Apr 28, 2021

CleanSoul said:
The Church doesn't fail, man does.

Your post shows a perfect example of perspicuity. Some seem to have this belief that whatever they, as individuals, think the Bible says, is what it says, because they think it. Like the Bible is easy to understand. There is a lot of self-interpretation among some Christians. Again, why not let Revelation be a mystery, instead of a puzzle to solve.

Solving it after the fact while one is sitting in the Lake of Fire is problematic for me.

So the church is not a body made up of humanity? The church is the current Steward of the Vineyard. The vinyard fails because of the Steward, not because a vinyard cannot produce fruit.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 28, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
I do not agree with this. Pretribbers are always interpreting Scripture through the lens of their mistaken opinion of Revelation. They take a literal approach to an overwhelmingly symbolic book, thus the error of their position. What is more, they foist a faulty interpretation upon what the actual text states. Their hermeneutics are clearly flawed.

The reality is: we need to let clear and explicit Scripture interpret obscure and symbolic Scripture, not the other way around. We must note the setting, genre and context of the truth/verse you are studying and establish what the Holy Spirit is actually saying in the overall passage. Context is crucial in biblical interpretation. We need to establish whether it is literal, symbolic or parabolic, and who, what and when it relates to. Is it speaking of the past, present or future? Is it principally speaking to the people receiving it or is it speaking prophetically of an approaching event?

But did you not go into reading Scripture with your Eschatolgy in mind?
Granted, I did look at the different positions and for me, the Pre-Trib works the best.

But recently, I am a little more open to looking at the other positions just in case I am wrong, though. Before I was a little more defensive when it came to Pre-Trib and that was the only true position for me. Now, I am a little more open to seeing things from other viewpoints (with the exception of one of them). The one position I am not open to is Preterism. There is no way everything happened already. History does not show that at all. Nobody could ever forget the events in Revelation. As for the Post Trib view: I do see this as unlikely, but I am open to seeing it from their perspective.

For me: Being ready for our Lord at any moment appears to fit the Pre-Trib view the best. The other views appears to be against the imminency of our Lord. I would need an amazing explanation with Scripture to prove that there is no imminency.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 28, 2021

Timtofly said:
These were angels at Sodom. Not men acting as angels, created just for that one purpose of destroying Sodom.

I think you misunderstood me. I did not say the angels at Sodom were not angels. I am saying that these angels had an appearance of men and that is what they could have actually looked like. It does not mean that they are no longer angels because they have an appearance of men.

Another poster said that angels changed their appearance to look like men. However, there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that good angels morphed their appearance to look like men, though. This is merely an assumption.

sovereigngrace · Apr 28, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
But did you not go into reading Scripture with your Eschatolgy in mind?
Granted, I did look at the different positions and for me, the Pre-Trib works the best.

But recently, I am a little more open to looking at the other positions just in case I am wrong, though. Before I was a little more defensive when it came to Pre-Trib and that was the only true position for me. Now, I am a little more open to seeing things from other viewpoints (with the exception of one of them). The one position I am not open to is Preterism. There is no way everything happened already. History does not show that at all. Nobody could ever forget the events in Revelation. As for the Post Trib view: I do see this as unlikely, but I am open to seeing it from their perspective.

For me: Being ready for our Lord at any moment appears to fit the Pre-Trib view the best. The other views appears to be against the imminency of our Lord. I would need an amazing explanation with Scripture to prove that there is no imminency.

I was Pretrib/Premil. However, I had many questions over the position. My dad had been a pastor and as a result I just took it as gospel truth. But I couldn't get satisfactory answers to my questions. I decided to study Genesis to Jude, so that I could better understand Revelation. After all, Revelation cannot contradict the rest of Holy Writ. What happened: I couldn't find any biblical evidence in those books that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a 7-year tribulation, followed by 3rd coming (including Dan 9, 1 Thess 4). I then dived into Revelation and again I couldn't find any evidence in that book that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a 7-year tribulation, followed by 3rd coming, including Revelation 3:10 and Revelation 4:1.

I now believe when Jesus comes, that is it! Men are either caught up or caught on. There will be no second chance, just like Sodom and Noah's day. I believe His return is impending, it could happen tonight, it could happen in 100 years time.

I agree: "There is no way everything happened already. History does not show that at all. Nobody could ever forget the events in Revelation."

Spiritual Jew · Apr 28, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
There is no indication in the text that suggests that the 1,000 year reign is a metaphor. The standard rule of reading is that something is literal unless the context and or the wording suggests it is a metaphor.

That is not a wise rule to go by in a book like the book of Revelation, which clearly contains a great deal of apocalyptic, hyperbolic and figurative language. Along with literal, but to assume everything is literal unless it makes it very obvious that it's not is just a bad idea with books like Daniel and Revelation, in my opinion.

keras · Apr 28, 2021

Jamdoc said:
I guess Paul shouldn't have been wanting to depart so badly then if he's just going to lay in a grave for thousands of years unconscious instead of being with our Lord.

Paul may be a special case, like Elijah, but otherwise all the dead 'sleep' in their graves. They know nothing until they are raised at the end of the Millennium; at the GWT Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

Jamdoc said:
Guess these guys must still be in graves unconscious too then huh

The martyrs described in Rev 6:9-11, do 'sleep' in death, but God allows them to cry out at times. Revelation 19:1-3 is another example.
At the GWT Judgment, their names will be found in the Book of Life and immortality will be theirs.

Where DO people get the "secret rapture" doctrine from?

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