Prayers for the dead.

ArmyMatt · Apr 24, 2021

SalemsConcordance said:
I see that now in the Panachida - I likely had blinders on, thank you. Would that be proper to do so for non-Orthodox who have fallen outside of the Church? Just as I wouldn't add their name to Commemoration, I'm unsure here.

yes, especially in your personal prayers. in the Liturgy, you can provided you mark them as non-Orthodox. the priest can pray the name, but knows not to remove a particle.

E.C. · Apr 27, 2021

Mountainmike said:
T
My understanding is whilst orthodox dont accept purgatory , what happens is left as a mystery, so undefined? Is that true?

Do orthodox pray for the dead? And in what sense do they consider such prayer is useful or has efficacy?

Basically, we die. When we die, our souls get a foretaste of the life to come which is basically either rest, or torment - sometimes when someone's passed away we'll refer to them as having "fallen asleep" i.e. "Fr John has fallen asleep in the Lord". This is temporary and, from what I remember, more or less based on the condition of one's soul when you died. We're in this temporary state until the Second Coming when the Lord resurrects the dead which means that your soul is now reunited with your body (part of why we're against cremation). At some point we'll have the Last Judgement. Everything else beyond that basically comes down to mystery, or theological opinion, but there are some things that we know just aren't so and the West's idea of purgatory just isn't one of them.

We pray for the dead partly to help them out in the afterlife and partly for our own comfort because generally we miss relatives and friends after we die. Part of the story of St Xenia of St Petersburg says that her husband, who was an Imperial Russian Army officer, had died in a not-so-good spiritual state. Being a good widow and good saint she prayed for his soul for decades. After decades of praying for his soul, the Lord revealed to her that his soul was saved due to her prayers.

Mountainmike · Apr 27, 2021

Thanks.

I think people assume too much about purgatory. The church has little to say dogmatically Other than most of us are not pure enough, so there is a purgation. A temporary state where prayer is effective.

I recollect hearing orthodox Ecumenical bishop Kallistos Ware saying that if purgatory is viewed as more of a hospital, emphasis on healing, and less of a prison we are not so far apart?

E.C. said:
Basically, we die. When we die, our souls get a foretaste of the life to come which is basically either rest, or torment - sometimes when someone's passed away we'll refer to them as having "fallen asleep" i.e. "Fr John has fallen asleep in the Lord". This is temporary and, from what I remember, more or less based on the condition of one's soul when you died. We're in this temporary state until the Second Coming when the Lord resurrects the dead which means that your soul is now reunited with your body (part of why we're against cremation). At some point we'll have the Last Judgement. Everything else beyond that basically comes down to mystery, or theological opinion, but there are some things that we know just aren't so and the West's idea of purgatory just isn't one of them.

We pray for the dead partly to help them out in the afterlife and partly for our own comfort because generally we miss relatives and friends after we die. Part of the story of St Xenia of St Petersburg says that her husband, who was an Imperial Russian Army officer, had died in a not-so-good spiritual state. Being a good widow and good saint she prayed for his soul for decades. After decades of praying for his soul, the Lord revealed to her that his soul was saved due to her prayers.

ArmyMatt · Apr 27, 2021

Mountainmike said:
I recollect hearing orthodox Ecumenical bishop Kallistos Ware saying that if purgatory is viewed as more of a hospital, emphasis on healing, and less of a prison we are not so far apart?

no, we'd still be far apart. it can't be for the saved alone, can't be affiliated with temporal time, etc. it basically can't be the Roman understanding of Purgatory.

E.C. · Apr 27, 2021

Mountainmike said:
Thanks.

I think people assume too much about purgatory. The church has little to say dogmatically Other than most of us are not pure enough, so there is a purgation. A temporary state where prayer is effective.

I recollect hearing orthodox Ecumenical bishop Kallistos Ware saying that if purgatory is viewed as more of a hospital, emphasis on healing, and less of a prison we are not so far apart?

The thing about Purgatory is that it stems from the West's concept of original sin and the guilt of Adam's sin that goes with it.

From what I remember in Catholic school, according to Catholicism at least, we're born with original sin and with it the guilt of it which basically said that we are just as responsible for Adam's sin as he himself was; this guilt is like a "stain" on our existence. Purgatory is where one goes to wash that guilt "stain" out of our being before proceeding on to heaven. In Orthodoxy we have ancestral sin which basically says we now have the capability to sin, which we do because we're not perfect, but we don't have any guilt of it. Adam sinned and we live with the consequences, but we're not responsible for his initial sin. I never really liked Purgatory when I was Roman Catholic, so when I was becoming Orthodox the way I understood it was that Orthodoxy doesn't have the West's understanding of original sin therefore there's no purgatory. We don't have a need for it and I'm sure the Church Fathers between then and how have likely written extensively to refute it.

ArmyMatt · Apr 27, 2021

also, indulgences are tied in with Purgatory, which is something else we reject.

ArmyMatt · Apr 27, 2021

E.C. said:
We don't have a need for it and I'm sure the Church Fathers between then and how have likely written extensively to refute it.

like St Mark of Ephesus

East of Eden · Jun 10, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
we do pray for the dead. St Paul also does it.

Cite? Would you pray to a living Christian?

prodromos · Jun 10, 2021

East of Eden said:
Cite? Would you pray to a living Christian?

All the time.

Lukaris · Jun 10, 2021

Matthew 22:32

1 Timothy 2:1

ArmyMatt · Jun 10, 2021

East of Eden said:
Cite? Would you pray to a living Christian?

2 Timothy 1:16-18. Onesiphorus had already been martyred prior to St Paul writing the letter.

and yes, all the time. anytime you ask someone to pray for you, you are praying to them.

East of Eden · Jun 10, 2021

Lukaris said:
Matthew 22:32

1 Timothy 2:1

Supplications and prayers made FOR all men, not TO all men.

"There is one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ."

ArmyMatt · Jun 10, 2021

East of Eden said:
"There is one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ."

we're not talking about Christ as our sole mediator.

and if you think that the way you are defining prayer now is the same way prayer has always been defined, you need to reread Shakespeare.

Lukaris · Jun 11, 2021

East of Eden said:
Supplications and prayers made FOR all men, not TO all men.

"There is one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ."

I agree, “for all men” & why did you think otherwise? What about the valley of the dry bones in Ezekiel 37 & the Lord praying for Lazarus in John 11?

East of Eden · Jul 4, 2021

Lukaris said:
I agree, “for all men” & why did you think otherwise? What about the valley of the dry bones in Ezekiel 37 & the Lord praying for Lazarus in John 11?

What about them?

East of Eden · Jul 4, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
2 Timothy 1:16-18. Onesiphorus had already been martyred prior to St Paul writing the letter.

and yes, all the time. anytime you ask someone to pray for you, you are praying to them.

Paul isn't praying to Onesiphorus there, he is asking God to have mercy on him.

ArmyMatt · Jul 4, 2021

East of Eden said:
Paul isn't praying to Onesiphorus there, he is asking God to have mercy on him.

indeed. you quoted me saying St Paul does pray for the dead in post 28 and you asked me to cite. so, I did and pointed out that Onesiphorus historically had already died.

this wasn't about praying to the dead.

East of Eden · Jul 4, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
indeed. you quoted me saying St Paul does pray for the dead in post 28 and you asked me to cite. so, I did and pointed out that Onesiphorus historically had already died.

That's one opinion.

Did Paul Pray for the Dead?

ArmyMatt · Jul 5, 2021

East of Eden said:
That's one opinion.

Did Paul Pray for the Dead?

and another link that doesn't go into the source material and doesn't go into any context from the time.

no references to any old Synaxarion, no references to the lines of bishops, no references to any of the ancient histories.

East of Eden · Jul 5, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
and another link that doesn't go into the source material and doesn't go into any context from the time.

no references to any old Synaxarion, no references to the lines of bishops, no references to any of the ancient histories.

So you're complaining they don't use your sources?

Prayers for the dead.

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