What Convinced you God Exists?

What Convinced you God Exists?

  • Philosophical Argument

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • Personal Experience

    Votes: 16 69.6%
  • Other

    Votes: 5 21.7%

  • Total voters
    23

Tolworth John

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Zero point energy and the Casimir Effect.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0106045.pdf

Your turn.
Nice try, they are dependant on what already exists.

Nothing does not cause something to exist or to happen.

In biology there is no evidence that any creature has changed into another creature, they all reproduce according to the variations allowed by there genes.

We say pigs might fly as an example of an impossible task.
Yet for pigs to fly they would need the genetic information on how to make wings, adapting bones, nerves, muscles to accommodate the wings as well as adapting the structure of the pigs skeleton, heart and breathing.
That information is not present in pigs, so where would it come from?
 
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Larniavc

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Nice try, they are dependant on what already exists.
Are they? Evidence please.

That information is not present in pigs, so where would it come from?
What are you talking about?

Back to the point. What causes virtual partials to zip in and out of existence? They just happen- or can you tell me what the cause is?
 
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Gene Parmesan

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That information is not present in pigs, so where would it come from?
What are you talking about?
I think they're talking about Animorphs
In biology there is no evidence that any creature has changed into another creature
450
 
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Paulomycin

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Not true. As I have pointed out atheists can believe anything they want about any other claim, we just all have a lack of or disbelief of gods.

^ Definition of "lack" is deliberately vague. "Lack" is nothing more than used-car dealer weasel-words.

Atheists morality can come from different places, politics, positions of anything really. . .

I'm reading this as: Atheists leech ethics off of their external places, cultures, politics, etc. because they can't account for morality themselves. Like Christian apologist Doug Powell says, "You're driving a stolen car." For example, American atheists typically steal from a Westernized Judeo-Christian ethic, and then act all innocent whenever they get caught doing it.

and has nothing to do with their atheism only that we won't attribute anything to a god until there is good reason to do so.

^ There it is again. "Good reason." Reason is not ice-cream.

Do you have faith that I am not 5 foot 11 inches tall? No, you just don't have any evidence to know either way.

And that's the difference between you and I. I'm not leaning "either way" when it comes to your height. I'm patient with that level of ambiguity. It doesn't bother me so much that I have to hang out on an internet forum over it. But when it comes to God, you're leaning hard towards atheism. You are drawing a conclusion about what you claim you "don't know," which is either a contradiction, or bias, or possibly an irrational combination of both.
 
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Bradskii

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Trust me. It's being read all right.

Here's an idea, Paul. And I'm just running this up the flagpole to see who salutes it (after seeing the 'sum total of your garbage ideas' bon mot).

How about we treat the forum as a place for interesting discussions in the same way as we'd talk to some guy (and we use 'guy' as being gender neutral in these parts) in a bar. We have a beer, we swap ideas, we put forward our views and we assemble arguments. Then we agree or agree to disagree and have another beer. Maybe you'll avoid the same guy next time because you really don't align with his views, but you can still say hi and join in another discussion if he or she is involved.

There may be some times when a point of view is put over forcefully. But that's the nature of an argument. But it's all done with some respect.

If you were in a bar using the language you use in your posts and taking the attitude you do in this forum, then...let's just say that beers would be held and sleeves would be rolled up and things would take a turn for the worst.

Does that sound reasonable to you? Or are you always going to come into the bar looking for a fight?
 
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Paulomycin

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Here's an idea, Paul. And I'm just running this up the flagpole to see who salutes it (after seeing the 'sum total of your garbage ideas' bon mot).

^ Note: "ideas" are separate from "person," unless you're so intimately tangled up in those ideas that you can't even tell who "you" are at all. Theoretically, an atheist should be above it all, and be able to calmly and impartially examine the "meta" without getting personally involved.

This is the problem. That makes it a forum problem.

How about we treat the forum as a place for interesting discussions in the same way as we'd talk to some guy (and we use 'guy' as being gender neutral in these parts) in a bar. We have a beer, we swap ideas, we put forward our views and we assemble arguments. Then we agree or agree to disagree and have another beer. Maybe you'll avoid the same guy next time because you really don't align with his views, but you can still say hi and join in another discussion if he or she is involved.

Because we're playing for real money here. We're not swapping recipes or baseball cards, FFS. The ideas presented here are often considered dangerous. Especially in cancel-culture.

For example, existential anomie is a real danger. So much so, that it can cause real mental harm and even lead to suicide. Camus had to write an entire book on it. And he's an atheist. That guy was willing to take the discussion to an honest level. That is the sort of atheist I would have no problem having a beer with, and we'd both walk away happy. Well, maybe not Camus, but you get my drift.

There may be some times when a point of view is put over forcefully. But that's the nature of an argument. But it's all done with some respect.

I show respect to people with guts. I get frustrated when they duck, evade, outright lie, and then continue the conversation as-if nothing happened.

If you were in a bar using the language you use in your posts and taking the attitude you do in this forum, then...let's just say that beers would be held and sleeves would be rolled up and things would take a turn for the worst.

Which has happened to me in real-life.

Which means you're personalizing your alleged "non-ideology." If atheism is not a claim, then why is it so real to you as-if it were? Why is someone willing to resort to actual violence for a non-belief?

Hmm?
 
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Paulomycin

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If you were in a bar using the language you use in your posts and taking the attitude you do in this forum, then...let's just say that beers would be held and sleeves would be rolled up and things would take a turn for the worst.

Does that sound reasonable to you? Or are you always going to come into the bar looking for a fight?

I've had close personal friends that I've had for years that I've tried having a "reasonable conversation" about this stuff. And they immediately flipped out. They turn on a dime. I'd never seen it until I "went there" with them. They'd suddenly go nose-to-nose with me:

"I DON'T BELIEVE IN YOUR IMAGINARY FRIEND!!!"

"NO PHILOSOPHY!!! I DON'T PLAY THOSE KINDS OF GAMES!!!"

Then they ball their fists, which they never did in 10+ years of friendship.

Yeah. I'm totally used to it. You can't threaten me with what I have already been through.
 
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Bradskii

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Why is someone willing to resort to actual violence for a non-belief?

Hmm?

Nobody here is. Most of us are wondering why you're so aggressive. Take a chill pill and stop being so combatitive. Because I see three probable results if that doesn't happen:

1. People are going to keep reporting you (I mean... 'sum total of garbage ideas'? Strewth, I might have broken a lifelong rule and reported you myself for that) and it's hasta la vista Paulo.
2. You're going to end up talking to yourself.
3. People will not treat you seriously and start taking the mickey.

We now return you to 'The Daily Invective'.
 
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Paulomycin

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Nobody here is.

But you're saying that if it weren't online, then things would be a lot different.

Most of us are wondering why you're so aggressive. Take a chill pill and stop being so combatitive.

Truth is aggressive. Truth is combative. I was just as shocked to come to realize this as anyone else.

1. People are going to keep reporting you (I mean... 'sum total of garbage ideas'? Strewth, I might have broken a lifelong rule and reported you myself for that) and it's hasta la vista Paulo.

Wasn't calling them garbage though, and you know it. Not all ideas are considered equal. Who taught you that as a principle?

2. You're going to end up talking to yourself.

Atheist pride won't allow that. I assure you.

3. People will not treat you seriously and start taking the mickey.

The content remains. I'm not here for my opponent. I'm here for the casual lurker. Debates are not about convincing your opponent. It's about convincing the audience.
 
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Bradskii

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The content remains. I'm not here for my opponent. I'm here for the casual lurker. Debates are not about convincing your opponent. It's about convincing the audience.

This isn't hyperbole. This isn't said for effect. This isn't me having a shot across your bows. This is me being honest: In all my very many years on forums, I've not come across anyone less likely to convince anyone of anything.

Don't think for one minute that you have 'an audience' eager for the pearls of wisdom you are scattering. You are just a shouty guy in the corner of the bar looking for a fight. Looking to get the last word in.
 
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Paulomycin

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This isn't hyperbole. This isn't said for effect. This isn't me having a shot across your bows. This is me being honest: In all my very many years on forums, I've not come across anyone less likely to convince anyone of anything.

This isn't hyperbole. This isn't said for effect. This isn't me having a shot across your bows. This is me being honest: I'm not trying to appeal to you on that level. I'm not a salesman. I'm not trying to sugarcoat the truth for you.

Don't think for one minute that you have 'an audience' eager for the pearls of wisdom you are scattering. You are just a shouty guy in the corner of the bar looking for a fight. Looking to get the last word in.

But what am I responding to? Hmm. . .?

All the shouty guys that came into the bar in 2006, led by shouty Dawkins and shouty Hitchens. You people made me.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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^ Definition of "lack" is deliberately vague. "Lack" is nothing more than used-car dealer weasel-words.
Already explained to you.

I'm reading this as: Atheists leech ethics off of their external places, cultures, politics, etc. because they can't account for morality themselves. Like Christian apologist Doug Powell says, "You're driving a stolen car." For example, American atheists typically steal from a Westernized Judeo-Christian ethic, and then act all innocent whenever they get caught doing it.
Unsupported claim


And that's the difference between you and I. I'm not leaning "either way" when it comes to your height. I'm patient with that level of ambiguity. It doesn't bother me so much that I have to hang out on an internet forum over it. But when it comes to God, you're leaning hard towards atheism.
Unsupported claim

You are drawing a conclusion about what you claim you "don't know," which is either a contradiction, or bias, or possibly an irrational combination of both.
The I don't know is the opposite of drawing a conclusion. I have not concluded that god exists or does not exist.

For whatever reason that is in your head alone you think you get to have an I don't know position on my height but I don't get to have an I don't know position on God.

Your only argument is that you know somehow through mind reading that I am forcing myself to not believe. I know you need to believe this to keep your theology intact. It is a dishonest debate tactic and you are better than that. I believed for a long time and I did not want to lose my faith but the more I searched for real proof the more I realized my reasons were unsupported by reality. It would be much easier for me to be a theist but I cannot force myself to believe or disbelieve something.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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All the shouty guys that came into the bar in 2006, led by shouty Dawkins and shouty Hitchens. You people made me.
This is your problem. You have an us versus them mentality. "You people", You lump all atheists in the same group and don't allow for diversity of thought among them. Listen to each individual atheist and argue against what they actually believe and not what you think they have to believe to be an atheist.
 
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cvanwey

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Well, I will admit that you are drawing it out of me, and I don't really want to say it, but yes, the ability and habit of fooling ourselves is pervasive. Not only for atheists, but for EVERYBODY. That doesn't mean we always are fooling ourselves, except in that we give more credence to our limited worldview than it merits. That is apparently necessary just to keep our heads above water, but one should admit the fact to themselves, just to stay skeptical of their notions.

Please do not think I'm appealing to authority, but I doubt many scientists even consider 'god' when they are formulating their research/conclusion. Some conclude that an eternal or always was state of the 'universe' is supported. Now, are they correct? I do not know? I'm not a cosmologist, or any relevant scientist. I am not equipped to dispute them with opposing 'evidence' to the contrary.

I am, for example, more than capable of making a statement I know well is true, and instead of amending it when amending is called for, I scramble to find a way to support and defend it. Strangely enough, sometimes that works out to be a good thing that a person is not too quick to accept apparent evidence to the contrary of what they believe.)

This appears brutally honest, and I appreciate this response.

All I can say here, is yes. I would agree. Sometimes an interlocutor will make a counterpoint, that the other will 'miss', as they are instead too busy trying to continue justifying their core position. But then later, when the dust settles, maybe much later realizes their point may not have been as 'good' as they once thought.


In such cases, they may no longer use [that] particular argument to support their current position. Or, they will amend that position moving forward

Which is why I asked if the 'first cause' argument was THE reason you believe. I doubt this argument IS the reason at all :) Why?

I, myself, have freely admitted here, on multiple occasions, that had I felt I received revelation of sorts, this is what would propel by belief. The point here being, it might be fair to say that most come to believe not by evidence and arguments, but by a 'feeling.'

I'd wager to say that if evidence was presented to demonstrate, to {you}, that the universe always was, you would not waiver in your current God belief?

I'll stop here for now.... But will address the rest, if need-be... But it sounds like we are more alike than you may want to admit. Where we differ, is that you might feel you have had experiences, which you tie to God, where I have not. (i.e.) Rom. 1


For which I raise again, the topic of external world skepticism.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Please do not think I'm appealing to authority, but I doubt many scientists even consider 'god' when they are formulating their research/conclusion. Some conclude that an eternal or always was state of the 'universe' is supported. Now, are they correct? I do not know? I'm not a cosmologist, or any relevant scientist. I am not equipped to dispute them with opposing 'evidence' to the contrary.

Lol, I'm not even sure you are arguing a point, so no, I don't see 'appeal to authority'. I don't even see believing scientists, Christians, who consider God in all their formulations. Not that God is irrelevant, but naturalism seems to be, for the most part, God's way of doing things. Either way looks the same to science.

There are certain huge differences, of course, but cause-and-effect prevails, regardless. One thing that galls me is how deists and theists, even scientist Christians, seem to hold to the self-contradictory notion that 'chance' can cause something. To me, both a Christian an atheist, scientists both, should admit to the logical fact that such is self-contradictory, and abandon such nonsense as, for example, 'virtual particles pop in and out of existence by mere chance', or that nothingness of necessity spawns somethingness, since it is unstable, or that there is anything absolutely random.

This appears brutally honest, and I appreciate this response.

All I can say here, is yes. I would agree. Sometimes an interlocutor will make a counterpoint, that the other will 'miss', as they are instead too busy trying to continue justifying their core position. But then later, when the dust settles, maybe much later realizes their point may not have been as 'good' as they once thought.


In such cases, they may no longer use [that] particular argument to support their current position. Or, they will amend that position moving forward

Which is why I asked if the 'first cause' argument was THE reason you believe. I doubt this argument IS the reason at all :) Why?

I don't know how to answer that really. I don't see fideism as anyone's absolute cause of belief. Even using the rule is to reason. While I certainly would not have what I call 'saving faith' in God, purely by reason, I can't say it happens without reason. I won't say it can't happen without reason or logic, though even a clinical idiot, incapable of what we would think of as reason, intelligence or even self-awareness, would nevertheless be capable of knowing the great distance between Creator and Creature, and gladly embrace God's grace to himself --perhaps even more purely than we who possess some degree of intelligence, for lack of self-important complications.

I don't remember if I told you before: The view I have of Omnipotence, First Cause, as God himself, seems logically unavoidable to me. IF that was all I had, it would be enough to believe in God, but not in itself would it be 'saving faith'. As the Bible teaches, that kind of faith is the gift of God, and not even man-produced. It is not even exactly subjective. (I can explain further how I see that, but, I laugh, because you probably should not ask most other Christians if that is true. Most would disagree with Reformed Theology in that, I think.)

I, myself, have freely admitted here, on multiple occasions, that had I felt I received revelation of sorts, this is what would propel by belief. The point here being, it might be fair to say that most come to believe not by evidence and arguments, but by a 'feeling.'

NEW Revelation is something Reformers have pretty much always denied, but then, their use of the term 'revelation' is not about God showing us things or convincing us of anything. Reformers often can tell you that they simply found themselves believing --that, meaning, both reasoning and faith. To some of them, it was something like having a cloud of darkness removed. Yet even that can be a POV change, and false.

I'd wager to say that if evidence was presented to demonstrate, to {you}, that the universe always was, you would not waiver in your current God belief?

No, even as now I believe it had a beginning, if (and I'm not saying this is possible --to me it is nonsense to say it always existed) it would still be God's creation, just beyond me to comprehend. To me that is like the freewill argument. While I usually deal with believers about it, the notion that anyone's decisions are not caused by external means, and that choice can be absolutely spontaneous, (uncaused), on the part of creatures (effects), is ludicrous. But I will admit that God knows more about this kind of thing than I do. After all, according to my notion of God --i.e. self-existent, omnipotent, first cause-- he 'invented' the very reality and principles of reality in which all things operate.

I'll stop here for now.... But will address the rest, if need-be... But it sounds like we are more alike than you may want to admit. Where we differ, is that you might feel you have had experiences, which you tie to God, where I have not. (i.e.) Rom. 1

For which I raise again, the topic of external world skepticism.

I have always felt a certain affinity to skeptics and atheists, who try to be merely that --and not, rather, antagonistic toward what they do not totally understand. (I do love intellectual honesty).

Yes, I do have experiences that further 'cement' my understanding, particularly what we believers call 'the witness of the Spirit of God to us'. It is hard to deny the conversations I have had with God, where he is both the one who can kill with hardly a glance of remonstrance, and has no need to speak as a human does, and the one who has the tenderness and touch of omnipotent control.
 
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cvanwey

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Lol, I'm not even sure you are arguing a point, so no, I don't see 'appeal to authority'. I don't even see believing scientists, Christians, who consider God in all their formulations. Not that God is irrelevant, but naturalism seems to be, for the most part, God's way of doing things. Either way looks the same to science.

There are certain huge differences, of course, but cause-and-effect prevails, regardless. One thing that galls me is how deists and theists, even scientist Christians, seem to hold to the self-contradictory notion that 'chance' can cause something. To me, both a Christian an atheist, scientists both, should admit to the logical fact that such is self-contradictory, and abandon such nonsense as, for example, 'virtual particles pop in and out of existence by mere chance', or that nothingness of necessity spawns somethingness, since it is unstable, or that there is anything absolutely random.

1) What is your take on the claim 'matter can neither be created nor destroyed'?

I admit I am not a scientist, but from what I remember, the term 'nothing' does not mean 'absolute nothingness.' When you state "virtual particles pop in and out of existence by mere chance", I'm not so sure the claim is that they 'came into existence' from complete 'nothingness'. But instead, changed form...? And if they merely changed form, we can still ask, "what is the driving change agent?'

2) You then state "nothingness of necessity spawns somethingness." What is your take on the topic of abiogenesis? Again, assuming my initial statement holds true about matter neither being created nor destroyed, then we may ask a differing question.


3) Do you have a problem with evolutionary theory? Sounds like you might not, but may still ask the question, what drives the changes?

I don't know how to answer that really. I don't see fideism as anyone's absolute cause of belief. Even using the rule is to reason. While I certainly would not have what I call 'saving faith' in God, purely by reason, I can't say it happens without reason. I won't say it can't happen without reason or logic, though even a clinical idiot, incapable of what we would think of as reason, intelligence or even self-awareness, would nevertheless be capable of knowing the great distance between Creator and Creature, and gladly embrace God's grace to himself --perhaps even more purely than we who possess some degree of intelligence, for lack of self-important complications.

I don't remember if I told you before: The view I have of Omnipotence, First Cause, as God himself, seems logically unavoidable to me. IF that was all I had, it would be enough to believe in God, but not in itself would it be 'saving faith'. As the Bible teaches, that kind of faith is the gift of God, and not even man-produced. It is not even exactly subjective. (I can explain further how I see that, but, I laugh, because you probably should not ask most other Christians if that is true. Most would disagree with Reformed Theology in that, I think.)

(response to your red comments) - Could one categorize such statements as "argumentum ad ignorantiam"? Essentially, I guess I'm asking here... Is your core belief in God driven by any form of admitted fallacious reasoning? I'm not accusing you, so please do not take offense preemptively :) But I have to ask you to explain yourself here...

(response to what you stated in purple) - How does one go from unanswered questions, ALL the way to what the Bible claims?


NEW Revelation is something Reformers have pretty much always denied, but then, their use of the term 'revelation' is not about God showing us things or convincing us of anything. Reformers often can tell you that they simply found themselves believing --that, meaning, both reasoning and faith. To some of them, it was something like having a cloud of darkness removed. Yet even that can be a POV change, and false.

I'm aware 'revelation' is a large topic. This is why I was careful to use the term "revelation of sorts". Would you mind giving me the best example of revelation; for which you felt, and how you know it was not only God-given, but given via YHWH?



Then to continue discussing whether or not the universe "always was" seems superfluous. This is why I did not respond to all of your prior reply :)

even as now I believe it had a beginning, if (and I'm not saying this is possible --to me it is nonsense to say it always existed) it would still be God's creation, just beyond me to comprehend. To me that is like the freewill argument. While I usually deal with believers about it, the notion that anyone's decisions are not caused by external means, and that choice can be absolutely spontaneous, (uncaused), on the part of creatures (effects), is ludicrous. But I will admit that God knows more about this kind of thing than I do. After all, according to my notion of God --i.e. self-existent, omnipotent, first cause-- he 'invented' the very reality and principles of reality in which all things operate.

External world skepticism - "No synthetic proposition can truly be known with absolute, unwavering certainty, because there will always exist an infinite multitude of possible explanations for sense data. All synthetic propositions are necessarily tentative conclusions derived from a preponderance of empirical data and predictive models."
 
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Mark Quayle

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1) What is your take on the claim 'matter can neither be created nor destroyed'?

I think it is the best way to humanly state a governing principle of this universe, but it does not by any means apply to what God can or cannot do. It makes no statement concerning existence, but the nature of what exists.

I admit I am not a scientist, but from what I remember, the term 'nothing' does not mean 'absolute nothingness.' When you state "virtual particles pop in and out of existence by mere chance", I'm not so sure the claim is that they 'came into existence' from complete 'nothingness'. But instead, changed form...? And if they merely changed form, we can still ask, "what is the driving change agent?'

Yes, I agree. Lol, 'absolute nothingness' is as foreign a term to our comprehension as 'infinity' is. To my mind, if there is no first cause, even the resulting concept, 'absolute nothingness', has no meaning at all. I find it necessary to consider First Cause the be the source of mere reality, as opposed to being just another component of reality.

Concerning virtual particles, I could also say, I think, not just changed form, but position. To me that is no more impossible than changing form. We just don't have any knowledge basis yet for considering such things.


2) You then state "nothingness of necessity spawns somethingness." What is your take on the topic of abiogenesis? Again, assuming my initial statement holds true about matter neither being created nor destroyed, then we may ask a differing question.

This, "nothingness of necessity spawns somethingness." was not my statement, but a pseudo-quote (for lack of a better word I don't know). It is what I hear from 'scientific writers', some of whom come across more as attempted poets or attempting philosophers than scientists. It is certainly not my claim.

I don't know enough about the theory of abiogenesis to comment to anyone's satisfaction, I think, other than to say, if it happened, it would seem reasonable to say that this is how God did what he did. I do find it odd that people place so much trust in 'may have' and 'could have' and 'would likely have caused', but that applies to much more than abiogenesis.

3) Do you have a problem with evolutionary theory? Sounds like you might not, but may still ask the question, what drives the changes?

Like the abiogenesis discussion, Darwinian Evolution to me is too sketchy, too full of gaps and presuppositions to be reliable. I personally just don't find it compelling. There is still too much we don't know. I will admit to the possibility in cosmology of the related long-time age of the earth/ universe, yet I don't think that necessarily contradicts the 6-day creation narrative, believe it or not! Time is relative, and easily manipulated, I would think, by the One who created time. (And if you find too strong a logical contradiction there, you are in good company. I've even had Christians tell me I'm either insane, or I'm calling God a liar, after hearing me say that.) I tend toward the notion represented by what my dad once said, "How old was Adam, when God was done making him?" Same could be said for the Universe. In fact, as one of my brothers would say, do we have any proof this whole business wasn't made this morning?

(response to your red comments) -
While I certainly would not have what I call 'saving faith' in God, purely by reason, I can't say it happens without reason. I won't say it can't happen without reason or logic, though even a clinical idiot, incapable of what we would think of as reason, intelligence or even self-awareness,
would nevertheless be capable of knowing the great distance between Creator and Creature, and gladly embrace God's grace to himself --perhaps even more purely than we who possess some degree of intelligence, for lack of self-important complications.

I don't remember if I told you before:
The view I have of Omnipotence, First Cause, as God himself, seems logically unavoidable to me.
Could one categorize such statements as "argumentum ad ignorantiam"? Essentially, I guess I'm asking here... Is your core belief in God driven by any form of admitted fallacious reasoning? I'm not accusing you, so please do not take offense preemptively :) But I have to ask you to explain yourself here...

That looks like 'argument from ignorance' only as a stand-alone statement. As I consider logically necessary attributes of First Cause, the statement may, (or may not), be supported.

I don't think my core belief is 'driven by' something logically fallacious (but then what would you expect me to think, haha) because if indeed what I believe is true, the logic follows. But the explanations (statements) I might pose would most likely have some logical flaw. That is true for just about anything I believe in, though. Meanwhile, much of faith is beyond mere logic, and logical investigation kind of finds it, affirms it, and so carries with it the suspicion or appearance of confirmation bias. It is backwards from good principles of scientific investigation, yet that is what science does all the time. It proposes a notion in order to find out if it can be supported or denied. And guess what scientists are so often interested in? --their favorite notions, of course!

Some things we know are true, we can't explain well. Or at least I can't. That doesn't make them logically unreliable, but only my explanation logically unreliable.

(response to what you stated in purple)
IF that was all I had, it would be enough to believe in God, but not in itself would it be 'saving faith'. As the Bible teaches, that kind of faith is the gift of God, and not even man-produced. It is not even exactly subjective. (I can explain further how I see that, but, I laugh, because you probably should not ask most other Christians if that is true. Most would disagree with Reformed Theology in that, I think.)
- How does one go from unanswered questions, ALL the way to what the Bible claims?

I can only presume, by "unanswered questions", that you are talking about the existence of God-- I don't know what else you would be referring to. So I suppose you are asking how does one go from matters concerning First Cause, to the Bible's God? Logical extrapolation is one way. All the attributes that philosophy has generally decided are logically necessary concerning First Cause or Omnipotence are represented in one way or another by the Bible's statements and accounts concerning God. I can't say that all the Biblical claims concerning God are affirmed in philosophy, but....


I'm aware 'revelation' is a large topic. This is why I was careful to use the term "revelation of sorts". Would you mind giving me the best example of revelation; for which you felt, and how you know it was not only God-given, but given via YHWH?
I'm not sure what you are asking yet. To me your last question contains a redundancy, "God-given via YHWH". Do you mean, how did I know it was God himself revealing something to me? I LOVE that question, because I too often hear Christians claiming God told them, or God said, or God gave them, or some other such thing, like it was direct inspiration, when to me it smacks of taking the Lord's name in vain. Two things come easily to mind, for me: One is a memory, one is something that happens all the time, neither of which I can prove to anyone, both of which I could be fooling myself about. I don't know if that is disappointing or affirming to you to hear, but remember, I don't claim to be able to convince anyone of the existence of God.

So: 1. I once had a dream, maybe it was a vision, but I'm not going to say it was. (Either way, to me it makes sense that if God is First Cause, then all that is natural is God's work too, so it is also miracle, though perhaps not in the fantastic sense we look for, not being so unusual in to our minds). In this 'vision' (or whatever) I was drawn away through the galaxy and away from it, in order to see the structure and nature and wholeness and purity of reality, and was overwhelmed with the notion of the horror of evil and its absolute opposition to what God has made. What I am left with now is mere impressions for memories, very little specifics, but as a result I now consider sin to be the ONLY thing that can (and indeed does) harm God, and that if it was not for him being First Cause, Omnipotent, it would have destroyed what I call (for lack of a better term) the time-space continuum, maybe even reality itself. It is a raw festering gash into goodness. Lol, sorry, but you asked. (Or I presume you did, lol)

So: 2. Daily --constantly even-- God has his hand on me. He turns me this way and that, my life is not just happening to me, this is not random. I feel him working my thoughts, my conscience, my desires, my circumstances. He drives my life. Particular within this is him teaching me things, changing me. And (sorry, but) pointing at Christ the whole time.

Yes, my imagination and even madness could be making me think what I do is real. But not only does pragmatism tell me this is the best ride I've ever been on, but I find myself unable to deny that it is as real as I am --maybe even more real. (So here we are back to that statement.)


Then to continue discussing whether or not the universe "always was" seems superfluous. This is why I did not respond to all of your prior reply :)

It's kind of a fun notion, nonetheless.

External world skepticism - "No synthetic proposition can truly be known with absolute, unwavering certainty, because there will always exist an infinite multitude of possible explanations for sense data. All synthetic propositions are necessarily tentative conclusions derived from a preponderance of empirical data and predictive models."

(Irreverant side note: Why do people find it necessary to use superfluous language to make a point? In this case, what is the difference between 'No synthetic proposition can be known' and 'No synthetic proposition can truly be known'? And why both 'absolute' and 'unwavering'? But I guess I do it too, lol. Maybe it's just a style thing and that one was informal.)

Actually, I think, any good scientist should be able to say that ALL scientific conclusions are necessarily tentative. Aside from the fact that science always leaves room for better and more abundant or more relevant data, I would say that is in part because the conclusions are always synthetic representations of perceived (or proposed) fact, and not the fact itself, and in any explanation, the original concept loses in the translation to language, and further in the translation to concept in the mind of the reader/ listener.

But I'm sure that wasn't what triggered the External World Skepticism comment you posted. Sorry for wandering (ok, not really sorry --at least I enjoyed it). But I'm not sure what you said it for, as my post you were answering only mentions, along those lines, the notion that external causes do indeed happen in making decisions. If one denies the external causes --i.e because they deny the external world-- then they may as well deny decision altogether.

Thanks for the fun.
 
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cvanwey

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I think it is the best way to humanly state a governing principle of this universe, but it does not by any means apply to what God can or cannot do. It makes no statement concerning existence, but the nature of what exists.

I disagree. Matter exists, right? If you agree that matter cannot be created, then it always existed, right? To say otherwise, there-after, requires a logically coinciding explanation, right? Can you provide one?

Yes, I agree. Lol, 'absolute nothingness' is as foreign a term to our comprehension as 'infinity' is. To my mind, if there is no first cause, even the resulting concept, 'absolute nothingness', has no meaning at all. I find it necessary to consider First Cause the be the source of mere reality, as opposed to being just another component of reality.

Concerning virtual particles, I could also say, I think, not just changed form, but position. To me that is no more impossible than changing form. We just don't have any knowledge basis yet for considering such things.

Based upon what you have stated above, I then still have to go back to the prior given claim above, (for which we agree). You still have quite a bit of heavy lifting to perform, to blankly assert a 'first cause', just because you cannot think of any other explanation. Can you prove a "first cause", which still leaves the prior statement, "matter can neither be created nor destroyed', intact?

Case/point: Even though the "theory of relativity" and "gravity" have been thoroughly explained, I still scratch my head. Enough so to still not want to fully except the 'evidence' to support the conclusions. Does it then become logically sound to then invoke a "God claim"? Or, must I admit fallacious reasoning, via the god of the gaps or the argument from ignorance, just for starters?


This, "nothingness of necessity spawns somethingness." was not my statement, but a pseudo-quote (for lack of a better word I don't know). It is what I hear from 'scientific writers', some of whom come across more as attempted poets or attempting philosophers than scientists. It is certainly not my claim.

I don't know enough about the theory of abiogenesis to comment to anyone's satisfaction, I think, other than to say, if it happened, it would seem reasonable to say that this is how God did what he did. I do find it odd that people place so much trust in 'may have' and 'could have' and 'would likely have caused', but that applies to much more than abiogenesis.

Like the abiogenesis discussion, Darwinian Evolution to me is too sketchy, too full of gaps and presuppositions to be reliable. I personally just don't find it compelling. There is still too much we don't know. I will admit to the possibility in cosmology of the related long-time age of the earth/ universe, yet I don't think that necessarily contradicts the 6-day creation narrative, believe it or not! Time is relative, and easily manipulated, I would think, by the One who created time. (And if you find too strong a logical contradiction there, you are in good company. I've even had Christians tell me I'm either insane, or I'm calling God a liar, after hearing me say that.) I tend toward the notion represented by what my dad once said, "How old was Adam, when God was done making him?" Same could be said for the Universe. In fact, as one of my brothers would say, do we have any proof this whole business wasn't made this morning?

Sounds like [all concepts] still go back to whether or not matter has ALWAYS existed?


That looks like 'argument from ignorance' only as a stand-alone statement. As I consider logically necessary attributes of First Cause, the statement may, (or may not), be supported.

I don't think my core belief is 'driven by' something logically fallacious (but then what would you expect me to think, haha) because if indeed what I believe is true, the logic follows. But the explanations (statements) I might pose would most likely have some logical flaw. That is true for just about anything I believe in, though. Meanwhile, much of faith is beyond mere logic, and logical investigation kind of finds it, affirms it, and so carries with it the suspicion or appearance of confirmation bias. It is backwards from good principles of scientific investigation, yet that is what science does all the time. It proposes a notion in order to find out if it can be supported or denied. And guess what scientists are so often interested in? --their favorite notions, of course!

Some things we know are true, we can't explain well. Or at least I can't. That doesn't make them logically unreliable, but only my explanation logically unreliable.

Then what do some of the 'best minds' say about asserting "matter can neither be created nor destroyed', along side with also asserting a 'first cause/omnipotent creator'? Feel free to quote others, since you do not feel you can explain enough yourself? :)

I can only presume, by "unanswered questions", that you are talking about the existence of God-- I don't know what else you would be referring to. So I suppose you are asking how does one go from matters concerning First Cause, to the Bible's God? Logical extrapolation is one way. All the attributes that philosophy has generally decided are logically necessary concerning First Cause or Omnipotence are represented in one way or another by the Bible's statements and accounts concerning God. I can't say that all the Biblical claims concerning God are affirmed in philosophy, but....

Thank you for your response, thus far. Pardon me if I probe a bit more?

1. Do you live in an area where Christianity is the predominant religious assertion claim? Maybe you don't?
2. What propelled you to read the Bible?
3. What if you were to come across another Book of claims, which also fit your a priori conclusions about reality?


I'm not sure what you are asking yet. To me your last question contains a redundancy, "God-given via YHWH". Do you mean, how did I know it was God himself revealing something to me? I LOVE that question, because I too often hear Christians claiming God told them, or God said, or God gave them, or some other such thing, like it was direct inspiration, when to me it smacks of taking the Lord's name in vain. Two things come easily to mind, for me: One is a memory, one is something that happens all the time, neither of which I can prove to anyone, both of which I could be fooling myself about. I don't know if that is disappointing or affirming to you to hear, but remember, I don't claim to be able to convince anyone of the existence of God.

So: 1. I once had a dream, maybe it was a vision, but I'm not going to say it was. (Either way, to me it makes sense that if God is First Cause, then all that is natural is God's work too, so it is also miracle, though perhaps not in the fantastic sense we look for, not being so unusual in to our minds). In this 'vision' (or whatever) I was drawn away through the galaxy and away from it, in order to see the structure and nature and wholeness and purity of reality, and was overwhelmed with the notion of the horror of evil and its absolute opposition to what God has made. What I am left with now is mere impressions for memories, very little specifics, but as a result I now consider sin to be the ONLY thing that can (and indeed does) harm God, and that if it was not for him being First Cause, Omnipotent, it would have destroyed what I call (for lack of a better term) the time-space continuum, maybe even reality itself. It is a raw festering gash into goodness. Lol, sorry, but you asked. (Or I presume you did, lol)

So: 2. Daily --constantly even-- God has his hand on me. He turns me this way and that, my life is not just happening to me, this is not random. I feel him working my thoughts, my conscience, my desires, my circumstances. He drives my life. Particular within this is him teaching me things, changing me. And (sorry, but) pointing at Christ the whole time.

Yes, my imagination and even madness could be making me think what I do is real. But not only does pragmatism tell me this is the best ride I've ever been on, but I find myself unable to deny that it is as real as I am --maybe even more real. (So here we are back to that statement.)

My question was not redundant :) You perceive an external guiding force/cause or some sort(s). HOW did you conclude this source is YHWH, as opposed to some other 'force/cause', (or) no 'external force/causation' at all. Maybe it's just your own thoughts alone?


Actually, I think, any good scientist should be able to say that ALL scientific conclusions are necessarily tentative. Aside from the fact that science always leaves room for better and more abundant or more relevant data, I would say that is in part because the conclusions are always synthetic representations of perceived (or proposed) fact, and not the fact itself, and in any explanation, the original concept loses in the translation to language, and further in the translation to concept in the mind of the reader/ listener.

But I'm sure that wasn't what triggered the External World Skepticism comment you posted. Sorry for wandering (ok, not really sorry --at least I enjoyed it). But I'm not sure what you said it for, as my post you were answering only mentions, along those lines, the notion that external causes do indeed happen in making decisions. If one denies the external causes --i.e because they deny the external world-- then they may as well deny decision altogether.

Believe it or not, we are already engaging in the topic of E.W.S. :) I'm asking you how you were able to discern YHWH, verses a infinite number of other claimed sources, (material vs not).


Thanks for the fun.

No, thank you. I do enjoy conversing with you. You are a breath of fresh air.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I disagree. Matter exists, right? If you agree that matter cannot be created, then it always existed, right? To say otherwise, there-after, requires a logically coinciding explanation, right? Can you provide one?

In a sense, I suppose, it could be said that since First Cause is complete, to which nothing can be added, that matter existed 'within' him. Problem with that is that First Cause cannot be depleted. Yes, I know that is assertion, but it is drawn on good philosophy, I think. I like to think that the most basic component of matter/force is actually something about God --the very physical thing he calls love.

Also, some philosophers like to speculate that this existence we enjoy is not 'real' in the same sense as God is real, and we are in essence and maintenance only figments of God's imagination; and while I agree there is something to that, it is only stated from our limited human viewpoint, and not altogether accurate. I bring that up because it seems possible that this whole reality of existence is only as God sees it.

Anyhow, I have no real problem with any of the three notions --that God can make something out of nothing, or make it 'of himself', or that this all only in God's mind, though from a Christian viewpoint, the last one is a bit difficult, since the death of Christ, who is God, the son of God, was real death. But I do not think this reality is on a par with the economy from which God operates.

Based upon what you have stated above, I then still have to go back to the prior given claim above, (for which we agree). You still have quite a bit of heavy lifting to perform, to blankly assert a 'first cause', just because you cannot think of any other explanation. Can you prove a "first cause", which still leaves the prior statement, "matter can neither be created nor destroyed', intact?

From my viewpoint, the statement is intact either way, but we can only comment on it in terms of this Universe, already created. First Cause cannot mean the cause of this universe only, unless this is the only universe. He is by definition first, so there can be no co-existing fact. All fact is subordinate. He is Omnipotent by definition.

The statement, 'matter cannot be created or destroyed', is essentially (to me at least) the same as saying, "matter exists, and cannot not exist." That still does not deny the possibility of a higher reality. It doesn't explain anything about how matter came to exist. It was not said by the one who caused existence, but by those who observe the behavior of things that exist.

The heavy lifting indeed I have not shown you, though to my mind it is obvious that there must be first cause. If one can claim that matter had no beginning, then how can one claim that the chain of cause and effect had does not prevail? As we discussed before, the only out for that is a substitute for first cause --i.e. infinite regression of causes. (Which answers nothing, but has a sweet feel of poetic balance with matter having no beginning. ("Nothing to see here, folks, move on").) As a more capable friend of mine says, infinite regression is infinite question begging.

Case/point: Even though the "theory of relativity" and "gravity" have been thoroughly explained, I still scratch my head. Enough so to still not want to fully except the 'evidence' to support the conclusions. Does it then become logically sound to then invoke a "God claim"? Or, must I admit fallacious reasoning, via the god of the gaps or the argument from ignorance, just for starters?

But "theory of relativity" and "gravity" aren't thoroughly explained. We only see relationships and behavior, not the why behind them. The more we have learned the more questions have shown up. We are not the grown-ups; we are still the children asking, "But, why?". The scientists still scratch their heads too.

The lack of satisfying conclusions is not the reason to accept the God claim. The 'conclusions', both satisfying and un-satisfying, seem to me to still call for First Cause. As I have told others, the farther back science and philosophy goes into cause and nature of existence/ reality the more I see the necessity of First Cause, and the more of what I deem to be his character is to be seen throughout. Yeah, I know --assertion... lol, sorry.

Sounds like [all concepts] still go back to whether or not matter has ALWAYS existed?

To me they all go back to First Cause. I will say this --if matter has always existed, then infinite regression of causes is a substitute for First Cause, in this reality/ mode of existence. Still, as a substitute first cause, infinite regression is mere mechanical fact, which answers to principles of reality from outside itself, which begs explanation. I have been answered re this, by "the principle is co-emergent with the fact". To avoid arguing whether that makes sense, I had to say that we aren't talking about emerging.


Then what do some of the 'best minds' say about asserting "matter can neither be created nor destroyed', along side with also asserting a 'first cause/omnipotent creator'? Feel free to quote others, since you do not feel you can explain enough yourself? :)

I'm not sure what you are asking. If you are asking who else agrees with me, that is an 'expert' in the field of cosmology? Einstein is one who is said to have believed in God, Deistically. At the least, he was agnostic. William Lane Craig is probably the best known, currently, at least as an apologist; though his field is Philosophy, the interconnections between philosophy and cosmology are becoming more obvious as study continues. Anyhow, I don't know of many who are simply cosmologists, and I don't refer to any to make my arguments, mostly because I haven't read many.

Here's a list of supposed Christians in the fields of physics and astronomy.
List of Christians in science and technology - Wikipedia
Among them,
  • Michael G. Strauss (born 1958): American experimental particle physicist. He is a David Ross Boyd Professor at the University of Oklahoma in Norman[335] and a member of the ATLAS experiment at CERN that discovered the Higgs Boson in 2012.[336] He is author of the book The Creator Revealed: A Physicist Examines the Big Bang and the Bible[337] and one of the general editors of Zondervan's Dictionary of Christianity and Science.[338]
  • Frank J. Tipler (born 1947): mathematical physicist and cosmologist, holding a joint appointment in the Departments of Mathematics and Physics at Tulane University. Tipler has authored books and papers on the Omega Point, which he claims is a mechanism for the resurrection of the dead. His theological and scientific theorizing are not without controversy, but he has some supporters; for instance, Christian theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg has defended his theology,[341] and physicist David Deutsch has incorporated Tipler's idea of an Omega Point.[342]
  • Don Page (born 1948):[325] Canadian theoretical physicist and practicing Evangelical Christian, Page is known for having published several journal articles with Stephen Hawking.

Thank you for your response, thus far. Pardon me if I probe a bit more?

1. Do you live in an area where Christianity is the predominant religious assertion claim? Maybe you don't?
2. What propelled you to read the Bible?
3. What if you were to come across another Book of claims, which also fit your a priori conclusions about reality?

1/Don't mind at all. I live in America, which seems predominantly lazy agnostic to me.
2/(Very short version of the story) I'm an 'MK' (missionary kid), parents evangelical Christians, devout, somewhat fundamentalist, mother somewhat Wesleyan, Father somewhat Calvinist, though he never said so, and never taught us Calvinism as such. Father a New Testament Greek expert, mother and father both fluent bilingual Spanish /English speaking. My parents being teachers at a Bible 'Institute' in Spanish, I grew up among Christians, went to school at a missionary kids school, etc.

My parents always had us kids, every night before bed, do family devotions with them, including a lot of Bible memorization and a reading from the Bible. I was a believer before I can remember. Later, when is saw my life didn't fit the theory others (not just my parents) taught, I began sincere study on my own, trying to make sense of what I was told by others. Slowly I began to conclude on what I later came to find out was mostly called Reformed theology. I.e. I was never taught Calvinism as such.

3/The Bible is a lot more than a book of claims. I can easily see a philosopher compile a reason for everything I myself consider logically extrapolating from Omnipotence and First Cause, to come to a more or less equivalent description of God that I hold to, without going far enough to admit the divinity of Christ. I cannot see such a book as entirely logical that disagrees with the Bible, but only failing to address certain aspects. There are several that I have looked at, that are philosophical in nature, but to me do not quite address, or even reject, what I consider logically necessary attributes of Omnipotence. All books that I have encountered opposing the Bible fall short logically, in my opinion, in addressing omnipotence, so I don't know how to answer your question. Any book that seems to me fully logical supports the bible, so far.

My question was not redundant :) You perceive an external guiding force/cause or some sort(s). HOW did you conclude this source is YHWH, as opposed to some other 'force/cause', (or) no 'external force/causation' at all. Maybe it's just your own thoughts alone?

I meant your question included what seemed to me a redundancy, mentioning 'God' and YHWH when to me they are necessarily one and the same. Of course, I have to admit I can fool myself as to the source, and no doubt have even done so at times, but what I am talking about is not a 'leading' so much as what actually ends up happening. I am not the driver in my life. Lol, I almost hope that is as disappointing to hear as it is unsatisfactory, because to be honest I would rather you experienced it than to merely hear it from me.

Believe it or not, we are already engaging in the topic of E.W.S. :) I'm asking you how you were able to discern YHWH, verses a infinite number of other claimed sources, (material vs not).

The other claimed sources, so far, don't add up to what I see as necessary attributes of First Cause. YHWH fits precisely, other than the Bible makes statements about him that I have not found in my extrapolations. But my extrapolations don't at all deny any of those claims. Confirmation bias? Maybe.
 
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