Was the 70th Week of Daniel Fulfilled during the First Century?

Douggg

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We're discussing the 490 *year* prophecy Gabriel revealed to Daniel.

I don't know where you're getting 483 *days* from?
I made a typo in my post. I corrected it to 483 years.
 
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Douggg

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When we post videos we are supposed to give a brief synopsis of what is in the video and main points being made.

Does the video acknowledge the vision that both Daniel and Gabriel referred to in v21-v23 is that about the little horn, time of the end?
 
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Timtofly

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"Wrong " according to whom.....and based on what?

The Church has recognized the decree given by Artaxerxes in 457 BC (Ezra 7:7-26).

Check out fellow poster, Christian Gedge's study in that area here (specifically, "the countdown to the Cross"):

https://www.5loaves2fishes.net/free-resources
That decree was not about building. It was about taking back the articles for the temple, Nebachadnezzer took from Solomon's Temple.

Did you read the verses?
 
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mkgal1

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orthodox church, is that where you have taken your avatar art from?
When I use the term "orthodox Church" I mean that as a contrast to heterodox beliefs that have crept into modern western churches.
 
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mkgal1

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That decree was not about building. It was about taking back the articles for the temple, Nebachadnezzer took from Solomon's Temple.

Did you read the verses?
Yes....I've read those verses.

Are you aware of the history of Solomon's temple?
 
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Timtofly

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Actually.....it *began* the whole process:

Ezra 7

1Many years later,a during the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, Ezra son of Seraiah, the son of Azariah, the son of Hilkiah, 2the son of Shallum, the son of Zadok, the son of Ahitub, 3the son of Amariah, the son of Azariah, the son of Meraioth, 4the son of Zerahiah, the son of Uzzi, the son of Bukki, 5the son of Abishua, the son of Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the chief priest— 6this Ezra came up from Babylon. He was a scribe skilled in the Law of Moses, which the LORD, the God of Israel, had given.

The king had granted Ezra all his requests, for the hand of the LORD his God was upon him. 7So in the seventh year of King Artaxerxes, he went up to Jerusalem with some of the Israelites, including priests, Levites, singers, gatekeepers, and temple servants.b8Ezra arrived in Jerusalem in the fifth month of the seventh year of the king. 9He had begun the journey from Babylon on the first day of the first month, and he arrived in Jerusalem on the first day of the fifth month, for the gracious hand of his God was upon him. 10For Ezra had set his heart to study the Law of the LORD, to practice it, and to teach its statutes and ordinances in Israel.11This is the text of the letter King Artaxerxes had given to Ezra the priest and scribe, an expert in the commandments and statutes of the LORD to Israel:c12Artaxerxes, king of kings.

To Ezra the priest, the scribe of the Law of the God of heaven:

Greetings.d13I hereby decree that any volunteers among the Israelites in my kingdom, including the priests and Levites, may go up with you to Jerusalem. 14You are sent by the king and his seven counselors to evaluate Judah and Jerusalem according to the Law of your God, which is in your hand.15Moreover, you are to take with you the silver and gold that the king and his counselors have freely offered to the God of Israel, whose dwelling is in Jerusalem, 16together with all the silver and gold you may find in all the province of Babylon, as well as the freewill offerings of the people and priests to the house of their God in Jerusalem. 17With this money, therefore, you are to buy as many bulls, rams, and lambs as needed, together with their grain offerings and drink offerings, and offer them on the altar at the house of your God in Jerusalem. 18You and your brothers may do whatever seems best with the rest of the silver and gold, according to the will of your God.19You must deliver to the God of Jerusalem all the articles given to you for the service of the house of your God. 20And if anything else is needed for the house of your God that you may have occasion to supply, you may pay for it from the royal treasury.21I, King Artaxerxes, decree to all the treasurers west of the Euphrates:e Whatever Ezra the priest, the scribe of the Law of the God of heaven, may require of you, it must be provided promptly, 22up to a hundred talents of silver,f a hundred cors of wheat,g a hundred baths of wine,h a hundred baths of olive oil,i and salt without limit. 23Whatever is commanded by the God of heaven must be done diligently for His house. For why should wrath fall on the realm of the king and his sons? 24And be advised that you have no authority to impose tribute, duty, or toll on any of the priests, Levites, singers, doorkeepers, temple servants, or other servants of this house of God.25And you, Ezra, according to the wisdom of your God which you possess, are to appoint magistrates and judges to judge all the people west of the Euphrates—all who know the laws of your God. And you are to teach these laws to anyone who does not know them. 26If anyone does not keep the law of your God and the law of the king, let a strict judgment be executed against him, whether death, banishment, confiscation of property, or imprisonment.​
So just toss Ezra 1-6 into the trash and start the book with chapter 7?

"Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah."

Nehemiah built the wall. Ezra worked on building the Temple.
 
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Timtofly

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You're not getting it. His death had to happen within one of the 70 weeks because it is crucial to the fulfillment of the reconciliation of iniquity (and other things mentioned in Daniel 9:24). Anything that happens outside of the 70 weeks is not part of the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24.
That rules out most of the church period. The church has nothing to do with Daniel 9?
 
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DavidPT

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You're not getting it. His death had to happen within one of the 70 weeks because it is crucial to the fulfillment of the reconciliation of iniquity (and other things mentioned in Daniel 9:24). Anything that happens outside of the 70 weeks is not part of the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24.

I have to admit, this is a good point. But that doesn't mean there can't be a gap in the 70 weeks then. It would mean that the gap is not between the 69th week and 70th week after all, but is between the midst of the 70th week and the remainder of it. So IOW, what Christ accomplishes in the midst of the week, that is trying to be reversed during the remainder of the week in the end of this age. But not meaning a literal temple is rebuilt and that animal sacrificing resumes. All of this would be involving spiritual not literal. It would be meaning 2 Thessalonians 2:4 for one. I don't take any of that literally, and I'm assuming most Amils don't either, and I'm also assuming most Amils take that to mean in the end of this age, as do I.
 
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Douggg

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When I use the term "orthodox Church" I mean that as a contrast to heterodox beliefs that have crept into modern western churches.
The term orthodox Church that you use is confusing to others what it is that you are talking about. heterodox is just as confusing. It is not even necessary to use either term. Just name what denomination you are referring to. modern western churches is also vague as to what you are talking about.

Terms like Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Anglican, RCC, Eastern Orthodox, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, are not confusing as what they are referring to.

Are you talking about the "orthox Church" as a denomination?
 
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Douggg

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I have to admit, this is a good point. But that doesn't mean there can't be a gap in the 70 weeks then. It would mean that the gap is not between the 69th week and 70th week after all, but is between the midst of the 70th week and the remainder of it.
The messiah is cutoff 4 days after arriving as the messiah.

The messiah cannot arrive and be cutoff in the middle of the 70th week, because the text does not say the messiah is cutoff in the middle of the 70th week, nor after 69 1/2 weeks (7 weeks + 62 1/2 weeks).
 
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keras

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But, here you are contradicting scripture by saying it happened at the end of the 69th week instead of after like the text so clearly says.
What 'after' means in plain English is; at the completion of.....
I contend Jesus was 'cut off' on the day the 69th 'week' was completed.
You want to fit it into the 70 th 'week'. If that was to be the case, then the prophecy should have specified a time beyond the 69th and some place in the 70th.
Rather illogical and only promoted by those with the wrong idea of the 70th having passed in the first century.
How about making an end of sins? Jesus didn't accomplish that?
All of the items listed in Daniel 9:24 are prophesies and promises that await their final fulfillment.
Faithful individuals have received partial fulfilment, but the general fulfillment will come when Jesus Returns.
 
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mkgal1

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Does the video acknowledge the vision that both Daniel and Gabriel referred to in v21-v23 is that about the little horn, time of the end?
Please quote the words from Daniel 9 that you're referring to. I've already posted v. 21-24 (here) and asked where you're getting words to come to your conclusion.
 
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DavidPT

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The messiah is cutoff 4 days after arriving as the messiah.

The messiah cannot arrive and be cutoff in the middle of the 70th week, because the text does not say the messiah is cutoff in the middle of the 70th week, nor after 69 1/2 weeks (7 weeks + 62 1/2 weeks).

I do see your point as well. This is what Daniel 9:25 says---unto the Messiah the Prince

This is what Zechariah 9:9 says---Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

This is what Matthew 21:5 says----Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

These do seem to be meaning the same thing---unto the Messiah the Prince---is meaning in Daniel 9:25. But if Daniel 9:25 is not meaning Zechariah 9:9 and Matthew 21:5, what else can it be meaning? Even though I admitted that spititualjew had a good point, I still only see two times in Christ's life that would be more significant than other times in His life, but not that these other times are not also significant. 1---when He is born. 2---when He is to die followed by when He is to live again days later. And the fact Daniel 9:26 deals with 2 rather than 1, why would it be unreasonable to think----unto the Messiah the Prince---is pertaining to when He is prepared to die? How can an event, such as His baptism, be a greater event than when He went to the cross then rose soon thereafter?

And if it is days after the fulfillment of Zechariah 9:9 and Matthew 21:5, that He is cutoff, and that Zechariah 9:9 and Matthew 21:5 pertain to this in Daniel 9:25----unto the Messiah the Prince---it is utterly impossible that He can then get cutoff in the midst of the 70th week when that would mean 3.5 years post that of Zechariah 9:9 and Matthew 21:5.

In my view, no matter how you look at it, there has to be a gap somewhere in the 70 weeks. So it's not a question of, is there a gap, it a question of, where is the gap?
 
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mkgal1

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The term orthodox Church that you use is confusing to others what it is that you are talking about. heterodox is just as confusing.
It shouldn't be confusing.

There are boundaries as to what's been acceptable in Christianity. That's "orthodox" beliefs (like the Nicene Creed, for instance). "Heterodox" would be something like dividing Jesus from God.

Screenshot_20210427-184611_Google.jpg
 
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mkgal1

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The church has nothing to do with Daniel 9?
The entire ministry of Jesus (including the Cross and Resurrection) "has nothing to do with the Church"? I'm not sure where you get your information.

I'd be happy to share some resources with you....if ever you're interested.
 
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Douggg

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It shouldn't be confusing.

There are boundaries as to what's been acceptable in Christianity. That's "orthodox" beliefs (like the Nicene Creed, for instance). "Heterodox" would be something like dividing Jesus from God.

View attachment 298222
It is confusing, your use of the term orthodox Church.

It is a vague term - which you are utilizing to speak approval or disapproval of the correct understanding of Daniel 9 - on behalf of Christianity.
 
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mkgal1

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Are you talking about the "orthox Church" as a denomination?
The Orthodox Church (like Eastern Orthodox)would fit the category.....but I'm using it as a general term to mean non-heretical and conforming with the boundaries of the articles of the Church (like the Nicene Creed).

List of heresies:

View attachment 298224

View attachment 298225

View attachment 298226

Prior to the Great Schism (split between East and West) in the 11th century (if I have my Church history correct) there was one united Church.....now....aren't there thousands of denominations? That is a big part of the problem (IMHO).
 
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Douggg

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Please quote the words from Daniel 9 that you're referring to. I've already posted v. 21-24 (here) and asked where you're getting words to come to your conclusion.
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Daniel recognized Gabriel because Gabriel first appeared to Daniel in the vision Daniel had at an earlier time in Daniel 8 ( in the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar v1, Daniel 8).

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

The only vision that Daniel had involving Gabriel was that in Daniel 8 and the time of the end vision of the little horn. Who will at the time of the end stops the daily sacrifice, commits the transgression of desolation, and stands up against the prince of Princes Jesus v25 Daniel 8 - only to be broken by non human means.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

seal up, complete, fulfill, the vision and prophecy of the little horn person in the time of the end. Which the 70th week is time of the end. And the prince who come, the little horn person.

My chart cuts through all the mess in the interpretation of Daniel 9 created back at the time of the reformers, who because of the persecution that they were getting from the Catholic church concluded (incorrectly) that the pope and/or office of the Pope was the Antichrist.

My chart is in simplified form. It meets the requirement of the arrival of the messiah completing the 483 years. It meets the requirement of the messiah cut off after the 483 years. It accounts for the temple and city being destroyed. It accounts for the time of the gentiles as the Jews were taken captive into the nations. It accounts for the prince who shall come to begin the 70th week. It accounts for the vision and prophecy of the little horn person in the time of the end. It accounts for Jesus breaking the little horn person at Jesus's Return.

upload_2021-4-27_21-27-20.jpeg
 
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jeffweedaman

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What 'after' means in plain English is; at the completion of.....
I contend Jesus was 'cut off' on the day the 69th 'week' was completed.

Silly.
Messiah arrives after the 7 and 62 weeks.


25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.



The anointed Messiah then arrives to fulfill the 70 weeks. That is a more logical reading.
Its illogical for you and others to have him cut off at his arriving at the end of 69 weeks and accomplishing nothing at all.

Please tell me you agree.



Jn 17
Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.


Why are some on this thread still expecting Jesus to accomplish this in the future.

When he comes again a second time in the future it will not involve a putting away of sin, but a saving of those who have belief in what he has accomplished for us.



Heb 12
but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
 
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Douggg

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25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
jeff, that was in the first century, Jesus arriving as the messiah, in John 12:12-15, right?

What about this part, regarding the vision and prophecy about the little horn person, my post 1158 ? Was the time of the end, and the little horn standing up against the Prince of princes Jesus - in the first century?

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
 
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