Why do some feel a tug towards God and others nothing?

Strong in Him

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Rom 1:18-20 says they have because GOD made it plain to them.

Romans 1:20 says that God's power, nature and invisible qualities are revealed in the world that he made.
Creation can certainly point someone to God, Psalm 19:1-4; Psalm 24:1-2; Psalm 29.

But a non Christian cannot know that they are loved unconditionally by God, that he can, and wants, to forgive their sins, that Jesus, who was both God and man, offered his perfect life for our sins, that he was raised again, ascended and sent the Holy Spirit, who can live in us and give us gifts - unless they are shown, or taught, through Scripture and other Christians.
And if all that non Christian knows about God is that he hasn't answered their prayers/prevented suffering or dying/rescued them from poverty; and if all that he sees of the church is a bunch of denominations fighting about "truth" and refusing to work together - they are not going to know anything of the Gospel.

The Gospel has not yet been proclaimed to everyone in the world - Jesus said that when it has been, then the end will come.
 
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TedT

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...but He did not have to at that point have to have names of people.
This is a bit of eisegesis to fit your theology by ignoring that Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you... can be properly interpreted to mean that HE knew Jeremiah as a real person and therefore his name before his conception.
 
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TedT

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And where in the Bible does it say that God's call is irresistable?
It doesn't but it is implied in every word about salvation by Christ:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

2 Timothy 1:9
Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Ephesians 1:4
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

and finally:
John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. ...and no one means even that person himself I believe.
 
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TedT

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Where does Genesis say that he considered fallen demons to be VERY good?
I don't know where Tartarus is, nor where the Bible talks of such a place.
Peter tells us but it is hidden in eisegetical translation:
2 Peter 2:4...or if God did not spare the angels having sinned, but having cast them down to Tartarus, (NOT hell) in chains of gloomy darkness, delivered them, being kept for judgment;...I am suggesting that this happened pre-garden when the Satanic were flung to the earth:
Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. ...
before the garden because the serpent, evil to the core, came into the garden already full of guile and evil.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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It doesn't but it is implied in every word about salvation by Christ:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

2 Timothy 1:9
Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Ephesians 1:4
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

and finally:
John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. ...and no one means even that person himself I believe.
If it was true that those verses imply an irresistable call from God then the command to "go into the world and preach the gospel to the end" would be useless. The call to repentance, which you find throughout the whole Bible, would be meaningless. Yes, the sinner would not even be guilty of unbelief because God rejected him. Judgement would become redundant. Pain and suffering in this world would become not only redundant but mark God as evil, since there would be no need for it.

Interpreting John 10:27-29 as "...and no one means even that person himself I believe" would mean that you are unable to live in adultery for the rest of your life. It would mean that it is physically impossible for you to live in adultery. You might say now "if I lived in adultery for the rest of my life it means I never got saved", but every human being is physically able to live in adultery - which means nobody is called. The idea that believers can't return to sin if they wanted to is very far off reality.
 
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TedT

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Are you saying that God who is light with NO darkness in him at all, 1 John 1:5, who is perfect, Matthew 5:48 and who is love, 1 John 4:8 deliberately created evil?
Can you not see my Signature on every post? It says
"Light cannot create darkness.
A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
GOODNESS cannot bring forth evil.
Inherited sin or sin by the will of GOD is anathema."

I accept Ecclesiastes 7:29 This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes." as referring to all of HIS creations and the words gone in search of many schemes to refer to our free will decisions before the foundation of the world to be sinful.

I contend that sin can only accrue to a person who makes a true* free will decision to reject GOD or to rebel against HIS commandment.

*true ...as separate from the fake free will decisions that we make by our human wills which are enslaved by evil. We choose but our wills are not free to choose righteousness nor saving faith and our lives are predetermined.
 
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TedT

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I don't know where Scripture teaches that idea, nor what you mean by "the sinful elect."
Reread the parable of the weeds, Matt 13:24-30 again and consider:
The good seed aka wheat, are sinful or they would not be liable to the judgement. [The angels are not liable to be affected by the judgment because they are holy and elect.] The good seed therefore cannot be good in a sense of righteousness but as a status marker, ie as GOD's elect, as Christ's sheep gone astray into sin because as we know, none are righteous.

The good seed are not repentant weeds.
The sheep returned to Him are not repentant goats.
Some children are illegitimate, not HIS at all:
Deuteronomy 32:5 “They have corrupted themselves; They are not His children because of their blemish but a perverse and crooked generation.
OR
their blemish is that they are not HIS children.
as shown by Heb 12:8 If you do not experience discipline like everyone else, then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.
 
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TedT

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If it was true that those verses imply an irresistable call from God then the command to "go into the world and preach the gospel to the end" would be useless.
Using a Book and missionaries to reinforce HIS internal call (which in my case was more of a nudge) does NOT imply the call is useless...but how it is, in part, fulfilled.
 
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Strong in Him

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..I am suggesting that this happened pre-garden when the Satanic were flung to the earth.

Pre garden, but post God declaring his creation to be very good.
Otherwise the fallen angels who were on earth would also be very good - once they were angels, created by God.
 
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Abide with me.

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How do you know that "the pull is so strong"? Maybe the child is just not as stubborn as other people who resist God's calling. God draws everyone, but He doesn't force anyone.
If God forced some people to accept Him and didn't allow others to do the same then there is no need for the world we live in. God could've divided humanity into heaven and hell directly.
Your post might suggest that people are aware of a strong pull but resisting it, I don't think most people feel the pull, on the other hand some people feel the pull so powerfully that they give up a great deal of earthly rewards to live in closed order convents and monastery's, often saying they had no intention of ever becoming a nun or a monk because they were aware of the sacrifice but wanted really strongly to serve God.
Not everyone is called to such extremes, the human race would die out if we all did that, but I believe that those who selflessly commit themselves to prayer and the service of God are saving the human race, but most people I know aren't religious and are willing to say this God stuff is a load if rubbish!! I really believe they mean it too God help them! Being told about Jesus and refusing to believe in God is different from ignoring an intrinsic "pull".
 
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TedT

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The Gospel has not yet been proclaimed to everyone in the world - Jesus said that when it has been, then the end will come.
Sure, but this does conflict with the tense of the verb proclaimed in Col 1:23...a bit of eisegesis I have dropped.
 
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RDKirk

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Madelyn Murray O'Hare's son William immediately springs to mind. He announced his conversion to Christ on Mother's Day 1980 (!). She disowned William. Madelyn was a staunch atheist rebel to the end (she and her other son were murdered over money).

More ironically, as a child William O'Hair (corrected spelling) had been the very nexus of the Supreme Court case that removed the Lord's Prayer from US public schools. The was the "person of standing" in the case, the person who was ostensibly being forced to recite the Lord's Prayer against his will.

And then as an adult away from his mother, he began saying the Lord's Prayer willingly.
 
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RDKirk

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Drawing all people does not imply that all people will accept Jesus' invitation. He forces no
one because He is not a rapist.


Which respectable commentary has this very strange interpretation?

That's the basic understanding of the Great Commission. Do you really believe "all" means "every single individual?"
 
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TedT

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Ted, please show me in Scripture where "our free will choices would be sacrosanct, untouchable and unchangeable*..."

I believe that from our POV, we have free will

but

from God's POV, we don't.

Please tell me that since 2+3=5 is not in the bible it may equal 17 at some time.

The only definition of a free will that makes any sense at all must include these ideas or it is bogus.

I believe that from our POV, we have free will
but
from God's POV, we don't.
Our experience of seeming to have a free will as sinners when the scripture is clear we do not have a free will as sinners does not negate the absolute necessity of our free will to be able to fulfill HIS purpose for us as HIS partner in a heavenly marriage based upon love, since neither a marriage nor love can be true when forced.

It is our sinfulness that negates our real free will, not our creation. It is rebirth in HIM that restores our free will though it needs to be trained in righteousness due to our years of indulgence.
 
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RDKirk

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I see that the Calvinists and the Arminians have stepped up, but that's only the half of it. I believe there are at least four ways to view God's attitude toward saving lost mankind:

1. God is not willing or able to save all. A Deist might like that, but not most Christians, I think.

2. God is not willing to save all, though He is able. Is this not Calvinism? Correct me if I am wrong.

3. God is willing to save all, but is somehow unable. Arminianism? Again, correct me if I am wrong.

Then, just as logical as the other three, is the permutation almost no one likes...

4. God is both willing and able to save all. I was able to confirm the "willing" part, but able? I looked and looked, and finally realized in a flash that God Is Omnipotent - of course He is able. It's a slam dunk, really.

Or:

5. God desires that all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4, which is not the same thing as saying that God wills all people to be saved), The blood of the Lamb is sufficient for all persons to be saved, but God will give each person what that person truly wants in this respect...and some people despite all knowledge will still truly want to be in a universe where there is no God sovereign over them.
 
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2BeholdHisGlory

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This is a bit of eisegesis to fit your theology by ignoring that Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you... can be properly interpreted to mean that HE knew Jeremiah as a real person and therefore his name before his conception.

Even nations are known in their mothers wombs and before they were born he loves one and hates the other

Romas 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
 
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Abide with me.

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All mature adults have a conscience, which to begin with, burdens them, because they will do stuff which hurts others. They can become callous to this burden and willing to live with it and might even using other harmful to themselves things to relieve that burden. (Drugs, alcohol, sex, work, fame, money, religion and lots of other stuff).

The only true permanent relieve form a burdensome conscience is God.

Sometimes the parent’s witness of being a: alcoholic, smokers, over eater, workaholic, atheist or whatever lets the child know, that is not what they want to be.

God Loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved. Why would God want something to do with you and not the person next to you?

Such a hugely important question is addressed in scripture with: “God Loves us, all.” God does not have any problem, but humans have the problem of humbly accepting His pure undeserving charity.
Good post, but I think it's worth acknowledging the difference between feeling an irresistible pull to God, and making a conscious effort to turn to God because you know it's the only way to be saved, I'm sure God does want us all to be saved, but why do some people feel powerfully compelled to extreme sacrifices for God such as becoming a nun, monk, or missionary which puts you in the way of extreme danger and deprivation, very few people feel called to do this, but I think God has a different purpose for all of us in this life, some are called to lead, but the rest of us can give God the great compliment of wanting to come to him of our own free will, which is the way he wants it, he's not ignoring us and it's not that he doesn't want us, he wants us to want him.
 
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Abide with me.

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I honestly believe that God wants all.

The problem is, not all want God.

It's not a case of "Why did God create me IF He doesn't want me?" but more so that God knew those that would open their heart and choose Him. Then He also knows those that no matter what they see or experience will never be enough for them to put down flesh and choose Him instead.

In this knowledge, He chooses those that choose Him.

Kind of like if I had insane amounts of money walking around saying "I will give you 1 million dollars." That in itself isnt likely to ever be turned down. However, if I were to say to the people of the world... "I will give you 1 million dollars, but you can no longer enjoy lusting or physical relations unless you are married to the person." I would receive a lot more "no"s.

In this example I would be willing to give the 1 million to all that said "yes" but would deny those that said "no" or those that said "yes" but didnt change.

Salvation is for all, but most reject this salvation.......because while salvation is a gift and free.... accepting that gift means a changed heart, which means that the things we once loved.... the things the world loves... no longer holds us as it holds the world, until one day, those same things may matter to us not at all.

God KNOWS the end game, He KNOWS ALL those that truly offer up their heart to the best of their ability and THAT is all He wants.... IF God recieves a persons heart, He can work out great changes in that life, giving TRUE humility and grace enabling that person to do His work and will.

After He has worked humility out in our hearts, then, loving Him, keeping His commands and all the "works" so many seem to put value on, are worked out through us in our given, new nature rather than the will of our old nature of flesh. We need only desire change and allow Him to work.

He does not FORCE all because how is it love, to force those that wanted nothing to do with you in life... to spend eternity in your presence?.... thats not love, its holding hostage.
Brilliant answer! I couldn't have put it better myself!:clap::amen:
 
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RDKirk

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Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.


The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!


This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).


Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?


If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?


This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?


Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?


Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?


Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?


The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).


How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.

I have to point out something here. In the parlance and custom of the day, the concepts of "common vessels" and "vessels of honor" had to do with their purposes.

A vessel of honor would be the golden bowl used to serve most honored guests. A typical "common vessel" would be a chamber pot.

In particular, "...Those who cleanse themselves from the latter..." is referring to people purging themselves, not the vessel itself ("purge" is used in older translations) into common vessels. "Purging" refers to either vomiting or defecating. So that is a "common vessel," indeed.

Understanding what "common vessel" actually means, then going back to Romans 9, the "common vessel" of wood or clay was never meant by the potter to be cherished or even maintained. It would absorb what was poured into it. It would become sodden and eventually useless. Yes, they were designed from the beginning to be disposable..."fitted for destruction" even if perfect for that purpose. A nicely designed clay chamber pot was still going to be tossed out eventually; the gold serving dish would be kept for generations.

But what if...what if...the potter chose to use that vessel of wood or clay for a purpose of honor. What if the potter chose to use the clay pot for soup instead of as a chamber pot?

What right did the gold dish have to complain about the potter's choice to set the clay pot beside it...which is what the Jews were doing with respect to Gentile believers.
 
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