Larry Kudlow: GND will force Americans to drink "plant-based" beer.

trunks2k

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Well I can go out back and shoot a deer. And it costs nothing but natural greens to produce. Although it probably did eat some farmers corn. Or raise a sheep on grass and a little grain. I know it uses less resources than fake meat.
But we're not talking about game meat. Similarly, going into the woods and collecting wild berries costs nothing. We're talking about agriculture. How much land needs to be cleared and resources used to raise X calories of soy vs X calories of sheep? If you can just let some sheep wander in a natural environment, OK, but is that a realistic way of doing things to meet larger demand?
 
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durangodawood

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Well I can go out back and shoot a deer. And it costs nothing but natural greens to produce. Although it probably did eat some farmers corn. Or raise a sheep on grass and a little grain. I know it uses less resources than fake meat.
Out of 330 mil people in the US most arent in a position to raise animals for their anything near their current rate of meat consumption. I'm pretty sure the land could not support hunting at that intensity either.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Beer is made from plants and fungus already :scratch:

utzTCyo.png


I don't care much for political fearmongering in the first place, but is it too much to ask for some intelligent political fearmongering?
 
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7thKeeper

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Yes. Tried the Beyond Burger, captured the taste of a gourmet beef burger perfectly. Though at £5 for 2, not cheap.

As a side note here, if you ever find Pulled Oats being sold anywhere near you, I recommend them. Good stuff. Taco Bell around here actually has it as one of their stuffing options.
 
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renniks

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But we're not talking about game meat. Similarly, going into the woods and collecting wild berries costs nothing. We're talking about agriculture. How much land needs to be cleared and resources used to raise X calories of soy vs X calories of sheep? If you can just let some sheep wander in a natural environment, OK, but is that a realistic way of doing things to meet larger demand?
I'm just saying the same applies to eating plants. In fact, if we ate nothing but plants, I suspect there would be very few places left with any trees at all. It would all be fields. Yes, there are some farming practices that are more sustainable than others. The reason we have problems in the heartland as I understand it is because they use the same ground over and over again for crops and strip it of all nutrients, that have to be replaced each year. In fact, the reason it was such good soil to start was because of millions of buffalo pooping on it long ago. So, the logical answer is rotating cows to naturally fertilize the soil and then to crops. It's done in some parts of the world. But the farmers I know are just holding on by the skin of their teeth now. Implementing new practices always takes initial expenses. It seems to me that nowadays it's go big or quit or just hobby farm. The small family farm has a hard time making money.

Another myth is organic is always better for the planet. Organic tends to take more land for the same amount of production, sometimes twice as much land, and it still used animal matter, in most cases, Bone meal, manure, etc. So, the vegan is still eating recycled animal parts, really.
A grass-fed sheep or cow would use the least in resources. It's also not always practical. We kept our cows on pasture in the summer, but they still got some hay when needed and grain. You need a lot of pasture and good pasture for raising on grass. I'm not an expert and I don't have all the answers, but it's not going to all plant-eating.
 
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renniks

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Out of 330 mil people in the US most arent in a position to raise animals for their anything near their current rate of meat consumption. I'm pretty sure the land could not support hunting at that intensity either.
Actually a lot of people could at least raise some of their own food. But that's unlikely to happen. Although there's a big back to the earth movement like there was in the 70's. Most people just don't want to go to the mess and bother I suspect. Meat chickens only take a month or two and are pretty easy to raise in a small space. I think we might try meat rabbits next.... but how many people are willing to look their food in the eye?
 
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durangodawood

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Actually a lot of people could at least raise some of their own food. But that's unlikely to happen. Although there's a big back to the earth movement like there was in the 70's. Most people just don't want to go to the mess and bother I suspect. Meat chickens only take a month or two and are pretty easy to raise in a small space. I think we might try meat rabbits next.... but how many people are willing to look their food in the eye?
Yeah I do think a lot of people could raise some animals. Everyone with a yard, pretty much. But mostly nowhere near the typical rate of consumption. Same with veggies.
 
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trunks2k

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I'm just saying the same applies to eating plants. In fact, if we ate nothing but plants, I suspect there would be very few places left with any trees at all. It would all be fields.
AFAIK, it takes much more land to get X amount of calories from animals like cattle than it does via plants given our demand. With certain animals being more efficient than others; cows are particularly bad. You could have some animals that just graze on the natural land, but that will never be enough to meet meat demand. So we have to grow feed on top of clearing land for the animals themselves. Instead of growing feed to feed cows/chickens/whatever to it's better to just cut out the middle animal and grow it directly for our own consumption.

And yes, "Organic" is a useless label that does not denote something is inherently better for the environment.
 
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renniks

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AFAIK, it takes much more land to get X amount of calories from animals like cattle than it does via plants given our demand. With certain animals being more efficient than others; cows are particularly bad. You could have some animals that just graze on the natural land, but that will never be enough to meet meat demand. So we have to grow feed on top of clearing land for the animals themselves. Instead of growing feed to feed cows/chickens/whatever to it's better to just cut out the middle animal and grow it directly for our own consumption.

And yes, "Organic" is a useless label that does not denote something is inherently better for the environment.
We eat a lot more than just cows. It's probably why chicken is so popular. You can raise them in small spaces and quickly. But as far as how much it takes to raise a cow vs how much protein it produces, it's a moving target. I do know the vegans go for the maximum it can take and then claim that is the norm.
 
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trunks2k

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We eat a lot more than just cows. It's probably why chicken is so popular. You can raise them in small spaces and quickly.
But you need feed for them. That takes land. It's one thing if you are feeding them using inedible by-products of stuff we'd be producing anyways. But that would limit the amount of chickens produced. We produce enough chickens that we have to grow cereal grains for them. That is where you lose your efficiency - we'd be better off growing stuff to consume directly rather than passing through chickens first.
 
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Desk trauma

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I'm just saying the same applies to eating plants. In fact, if we ate nothing but plants, I suspect there would be very few places left with any trees at all. It would all be fields. Yes, there are some farming practices that are more sustainable than others. The reason we have problems in the heartland as I understand it is because they use the same ground over and over again for crops and strip it of all nutrients, that have to be replaced each year. In fact, the reason it was such good soil to start was because of millions of buffalo pooping on it long ago. So, the logical answer is rotating cows to naturally fertilize the soil and then to crops. It's done in some parts of the world. But the farmers I know are just holding on by the skin of their teeth now. Implementing new practices always takes initial expenses. It seems to me that nowadays it's go big or quit or just hobby farm. The small family farm has a hard time making money.

Another myth is organic is always better for the planet. Organic tends to take more land for the same amount of production, sometimes twice as much land, and it still used animal matter, in most cases, Bone meal, manure, etc. So, the vegan is still eating recycled animal parts, really.
A grass-fed sheep or cow would use the least in resources. It's also not always practical. We kept our cows on pasture in the summer, but they still got some hay when needed and grain. You need a lot of pasture and good pasture for raising on grass. I'm not an expert and I don't have all the answers, but it's not going to all plant-eating.

Livestock feed uses nearly half of US grain production. Does this hypothetical of yours with everyone taking up a plant based diet include abandoning all of that capacity for some odd reason?
 
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Desk trauma

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I wonder how much of the rest is dedicated to stupid ethanol production?
If it’s more than a pound it’s too much in my eyes but I have a very dim view of the corn ethanol boondoggle which is a net energy loss.
 
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Bradskii

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Actually a lot of people could at least raise some of their own food. But that's unlikely to happen. Although there's a big back to the earth movement like there was in the 70's. Most people just don't want to go to the mess and bother I suspect. Meat chickens only take a month or two and are pretty easy to raise in a small space. I think we might try meat rabbits next.... but how many people are willing to look their food in the eye?

Had a holiday in South America a few years back and was wandering through a market in Lima (wife and I love local markets). And we came across a few stalls with cages full of guineau pigs. 'Ah, look', she said. 'Aren't they cute'. I said 'Girl, this isn't the pet section. It's the meat section'.

I tried them in a restaurant later. Not a lot of meat but quite nice. She refused.
 
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Bradskii

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And yes, "Organic" is a useless label that does not denote something is inherently better for the environment.

Organic is code for 'ropey looking fruit and veg at twice the price' in these parts. Hey, gotta get some of them!

I grow my own tomatoes, lemons, limes, chilles, herbs and I'm waiting for my olive tree to start producing (I also distill my own booze, but that's just between you and me).
 
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hedrick

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I've tried the impossible burger in the form of Burger King's "Impossible Whopper". I was shocked by how much it tasted like a regular burger.

-CryptoLutheran
But the real question is whether Burger King’s normal product tastes like a real burger. I’m not convinced.
 
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wing2000

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Had a holiday in South America a few years back and was wandering through a market in Lima (wife and I love local markets). And we came across a few stalls with cages full of guineau pigs. 'Ah, look', she said. 'Aren't they cute'. I said 'Girl, this isn't the pet section. It's the meat section'.

I tried them in a restaurant later. Not a lot of meat but quite nice. She refused.

...and they serve the entire roasted guinea pig on the plate. You're a braver man than I was...

guinea-pig-meal.jpg
 
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Bradskii

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...and they serve the entire roasted guinea pig on the plate. You're a braver man than I was...

Good grief. It looks like someone threw up over a roadkill. I'm not sure I'd eat that either! The one I had was in a restaurant that had some pretentions. And it was served 'carapaccio'. On a large block of glass for some reason.
 
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