Contrary to what Premil teaches: Revelation 20 does not locate Jesus on earth!

DavidPT said:

Which should we believe? Amil's combined account involving Revelation 19:19 and Revelation 20:9, which then contradicts Revelation 19:20? Or should we instead believe what Revelation 19 records, and what Revelation 20 records, and that none of these involve the same events?

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Let me ask you, do you believe that the fire from heaven in Revelation 20:9 to be literal? And who is the camp of the Saints and beloved city in the New Testament?

And can you explain what is the meaning of this:

Rev 13:11-14
(11) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
(12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
(13) And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
(14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Sounds familiar. Is it the same fire coming down from heaven in Revelation 20:9? Be careful before you deny this. What is the spiritual signification and purpose of the fire come down from heaven in the New Testament? Do you think it will still be a literal fire that vaporizes people or a judgment by God that His rebellious people will believe a lie (the word) coming out of the mouth of the beast? The same way how God used His people to judge those who are against them.

Jer 5:14
(14) Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Did Jeremiah literally burn people with fire out of his mouth, no? Likewise with God's Two Witnesses (signifies Elects bringing Gospel)

Rev 11:3-5
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
(5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

God is not talking about literal fires coming out of our mouth of witnesses. It is HIS WORD that judges them spiritually through our testimony.

Now, tell me what you think Revelation 20:8-9 is all about? Who is Gog and Magog? They are not Russia, nor Army, Navy, Air Force from all over the world. No, they are the army of professed Christians with the spirit of antichrist. The body of the beast. They are coming against God's Elect symbolically the camps of the Saints and the Beloved City. There won't be a physical battle over one location on Earth but rather ALL OVER THE WORLD wherever the Churches are. There God will send fire upon them as a judgment? By allowing the beast to make fire from heaven (false doctrines) so that many people will be deceived by it. They will believe a lie as a judgment of God. Didn't you read the Scirpture?

2Th 2:6-12
(6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
(10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

See? The battle of Armaggeddon is not all about guns and missiles...or literal fires. It is a spiritual battle within God's New Testament Congregation where the word of Satan overwhelmed the Two Witnesses' testimony. It is Satan's Word (signs and lying wonders) that deceive many! Why? Because professed Christians of the New Tetament Congregation does not Love the Truth. They want to replace the image or rule of Christ with the image of Beast and to attack the remaining truthful testimony of God's Two Witnesses. FOR THIS CAUSE, God has allowed Satan to come in and rule within His unfaithful congregation to deceive the rebellious Christians to believe a LIE as a judgment. In other words, they will not find salvation. Especially after God has finished secured all of His Elect first! This is the judgment of unfaithful Babylon the Great BEFORE Christ returns!

Selah!

Spiritual Jew said:

How can what is described in Revelation 20:9 occur on the new earth in light of what it says about the conditions of the new earth here:

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

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That you brought that up, let's also look at Isaiah 65 for a moment, then Isaiah 66.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Now let's look at the following in Isaiah 66.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


Is or is not verse 23 and 24 meaning during the time of the new heavens and new earth mentioned in verse 22? If it is, how does one square this---And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me---with that of this---the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind---if the latter literally means what it says? How can Isaiah 66:24 be a good example of what Isaiah 65:17 indicates, when Isaiah 66:24 obviously involves the former still being remembered, and still coming into mind, in order to even fulfill that verse?

sovereigngrace said:

Isaiah 14:15-18, Isaiah 24:21-22 and Isaiah 66:22-24 all correlate. When Jesus comes the demonic realm is destroyed by being banished to the Lake of Fire. None of these passages make any mention of a future sin-cursed millennial period. That is because they relate to the new heavens and new earth. The wicked and the demons are placed as an eternal reminder to the righteous of the eternal justice of God.

Isaiah 14:15-18: “Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.”

This is talking about the lake of fire in eternity!!!

Isaiah 24:21-22: “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.”

This is talking about the lake of fire in eternity!!!

Isaiah 66:22-24: “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”

This is talking about the lake of fire in eternity!!!

This is just hyperbole language describing the reality of eternity in terms that the OT listener/reader could easily grasp. That is nothing more than poetic verbiage used to impress eternity to we humans stuck in time.

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But in regards to what I posted in my last post, where I don't see anything you submitted here answering what I specifically brought up, the only thing I can figure out for the time being about the NHNE, which may or may not help solve some of these issues I brought up, the NHNE are not instantaneous. It is a progression that involves a thousand years, a little season, then a great white throne judgment, in order to get to it's final state, that being, such as what is recorded in Isaiah 65:17---the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. That could mean that Isaiah 66:24 is meaning during the time of the thousand years, thus the final state of the NHNE has not yet been fully achieved at this point. And that it serves as a warning for anyone in the future, that if you too transgress against me, though I spared your lives at my coming, this will be your fate as well. And it's not like there is no rebellion after the thousand years expire.

DavidPT said:

That you brought that up, let's also look at Isaiah 65 for a moment, then Isaiah 66.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Now let's look at the following in Isaiah 66.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


Is or is not verse 23 and 24 meaning during the time of the new heavens and new earth mentioned in verse 22? If it is, how does one square this---And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me---with that of this---the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind---if the latter literally means what it says? How can Isaiah 66:24 be a good example of what Isaiah 65:17 indicates, when Isaiah 66:24 obviously involves the former still being remembered, and still coming into mind, in order to even fulfill that verse?

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I can't figure out what you're trying to say here. We know that scripture does not contradict itself, right? And there's no basis for thinking that there will be more than one new heavens and new earth, right?

So, with those things in mind, I would say that Isaiah 65:17 is quite literal and straightforward, wouldn't you? It says "the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind". That is very similar to where Revelation 21:1 says "for the first heaven and first earth were passed away" and where Rev 21:4 says "the former things are passed away". So, shouldn't these literal, straightforward verses be part of the foundation of our understanding of the new heavens and new earth? I believe so.

So, no matter what anything else says about the new heavens and new earth, we know for sure from clear, straightforward verses like Isaiah 65:17 and Revelation 21:1,4 that the former things from the first heaven and first earth will be gone and not remembered at that point. This means that either Isaiah 66:22-24 is contradicting what Isaiah 65:17 and Revelation 21:1,4 say about the new heavens and new earth or Isaiah 66:22-24 should be understood in a figurative sense. Clearly, dead bodies could not be both eaten by worms and burned at the same time, right? So, it's clearly figurative. If it was literal then it would be a contradiction. Obviously, we should not be willing to interpret any passage of scripture in such a way that it contradicts other passages of scripture.

Isaiah 65 and 66 contain a fair amount of figurative language because things were explained in a way that people could understand at the time. The New Testament was written to give us a clearer and more complete picture of the future, so we need to use NT scripture to help us understand OT prophecies. Revelation 21:1-4 is very clear about what the conditions will be like on the new earth. There will be no more death, sorrow, crying or pain. So, any understanding you have of the new heavens and new earth that includes death, sorrow, crying and pain clearly contradicts Revelation 21:1-4.

DavidPT said:

But in regards to what I posted in my last post, where I don't see anything you submitted here answering what I specifically brought up, the only thing I can figure out for the time being about the NHNE, which may or may not help solve some of these issues I brought up, the NHNE are not instantaneous. It is a progression that involves a thousand years, a little season, then a great white throne judgment, in order to get to it's final state, that being, such as what is recorded in Isaiah 65:17---the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. That could mean that Isaiah 66:24 is meaning during the time of the thousand years, thus the final state of the NHNE has not yet been fully achieved at this point. And that it serves as a warning for anyone in the future, that if you too transgress against me, though I spared your lives at my coming, this will be your fate as well. And it's not like there is no rebellion after the thousand years expire.

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If the state described in Isaiah 65:17 wasn't instantaneous and took a thousand plus years after the second coming of Christ to get to that point, then how should we understand Revelation 21:1?

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

John clearly indicates here that the new heaven and new earth appear after the first heaven and first earth pass away. But you have the new heaven and new earth appearing already 1000+ years before the first heaven and first earth pass away. That's a clear contradiction of Revelation 21:1.

Spiritual Jew said:

I can't figure out what you're trying to say here. We know that scripture does not contradict itself, right? And there's no basis for thinking that there will be more than one new heavens and new earth, right?

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Let me try and further clarify what I'm trying to say. What is recorded in Isaiah 66:24, unless I'm reading the text wrong, it indicates that they do that during the time of the new heavens and new earth. I'm not proposing there is more than one new heaven and new earth, clearly there isn't, I'm simply pointing out, that according to Isaiah 65:17, the former shall not be remembered, nor come to mind.

Obviously, what is recorded in Isaiah 66:24--- the men that have transgressed against me---this is referring to the following for one.

Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

This happens first, in the end of this age, which then leads to those in verse 24 going forth and looking upon the carcases of the men that transgressed against the LORD. Verse 22 appears to indicate they do that during the NHNE. But if this going forth by them is not meaning in the literal sense, why should we then assume anything in verses 15 and 16 are meaning in a literal sense? It obviously doesn't involve literal chariots, nor literal swords, which BTW, if none of that is literal, why do some of you insist the fire mentioned in both those verses are meaning literal fire? But what is literal about these two verses, is this---and the slain of the LORD shall be many. That's referring to the same transgressors seen in verse 24.

If these in verse 16 are literally slain, one must also conclude that those seen in verse 24, they are literally going forth at some point, apparently during the NHNE, and looking upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against the LORD. The text indicates that it is their carcases that they are looking upon. Everyone should know what 'carcases' are meaning. It's meaning bird food, it's meaning dead bodies. If they are doing this during the NHNE, they are obviously remembering the former, and that it is still coming to mind, the fact these men were slain during the time of the former earth, not during the time of the NHNE, which then causes a conflict with this in Isaiah 65:17---and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

The way I try and solve that, I explained that in post #284, so no need for me to try and explain it again in this post.

DavidPT said:

Let me try and further clarify what I'm trying to say. What is recorded in Isaiah 66:24, unless I'm reading the text wrong, it indicates that they do that during the time of the new heavens and new earth. I'm not proposing there is more than one new heaven and new earth, clearly there isn't, I'm simply pointing out, that according to Isaiah 65:17, the former shall not be remembered, nor come to mind.

Obviously, what is recorded in Isaiah 66:24--- the men that have transgressed against me---this is referring to the following for one.

Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

This happens first, in the end of this age, which then leads to those in verse 24 going forth and looking upon the carcases of the men that transgressed against the LORD. Verse 22 appears to indicate they do that during the NHNE. But if this going forth by them is not meaning in the literal sense, why should we then assume anything in verses 15 and 16 are meaning in a literal sense? It obviously doesn't involve literal chariots, nor literal swords, which BTW, if none of that is literal, why do some of you insist the fire mentioned in both those verses are meaning literal fire? But what is literal about these two verses, is this---and the slain of the LORD shall be many. That's referring to the same transgressors seen in verse 24.

If these in verse 16 are literally slain, one must also conclude that those seen in verse 24, they are literally going forth at some point, apparently during the NHNE, and looking upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against the LORD. The text indicates that it is their carcases that they are looking upon. Everyone should know what 'carcases' are meaning. It's meaning bird food, it's meaning dead bodies. If they are doing this during the NHNE, they are obviously remembering the former, and that it is still coming to mind, the fact these men were slain during the time of the former earth, not during the time of the NHNE, which then causes a conflict with this in Isaiah 65:17---and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

The way I try and solve that, I explained that in post #284, so no need for me to try and explain it again in this post.

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I don't know what to tell you besides what I already said in post #286. What I said there still applies to what you're saying here as well. To me, your view is causing scripture to contradict itself.

sovereigngrace said:

But the NHNE does not arrive in Revelation till after the millennium/Satan's little season. This totally demolishes the Premil insistence on a chronological approach.

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Right. It's pretty clear from Revelation 21:1 that the new heavens and new earth are not ushered in until after the thousand years and Satan's little season because it indicates that the first heaven and first earth (the current heaven and earth) have to pass away first.

Also, in 2 Peter 3:10-13, Peter indicates that the new heavens and new earth would be ushered in only after the current heavens and earth are burned up first.

sovereigngrace said:

But the NHNE does not arrive in Revelation till after the millennium/Satan's little season. This totally demolishes the Premil insistence on a chronological approach.

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Why do Amils only find that particular chronology so obvious to them, but when it comes to Revelation 20:4, and the fact there are martyrs in this verse martyred because they refused to worship the beast, thus telling us that chronologically the beast has to ascend out of the pit first, Amils instead twist the obvious chronology altogether and have the beast ascending out of the pit after these saints have already been martyred because of it, instead of having the beast ascend out of the pit before they are even martyred?

The following is basically the correct interpretation, chronologically speaking.


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, after the beast had ascended out of the pit first and then caused them to be martyred because they refused to bow down to it and serve it rather than God; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Versus the incorrect Amil interpretation of the same passage.


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, before the beast has even ascended out of the pit first in order to be the reason they are martyred; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Spiritual Jew said:

What are you talking about? I'm not adding anything to the text. I'm merely interpreting it differently than you. Should I say that you are adding to the prophecy in Revelation 20 when you say it talks about Jesus being on the earth when it never specifically mentions that? No, I wouldn't do that. I would just say that you are misinterpreting that passage.

I don't appreciate you trying to act as if the following verse that you quoted applies to me:

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

This is talking about someone purposely adding things to the prophecy that they know are not there, which is not what I'm doing. If someone is misinterpreting the prophecy, they are not purposely adding to it. So, this verse has nothing to do with misinterpreting the words of the prophecy of the book of Revelation.

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I was not adding Jesus Christ because He came down on a white horse and defeated Satan, the FP, and the beast. Jesus Christ did not go back to heaven in the text. The FP and beast were cast into the lake of fire. Satan was bound in the pit. Then the 1000 years started. The only being alive was Jesus Christ and His army. Then thrones were set up. His army sat down.

Would saying that Jesus Christ left earth, not be adding to the text? Would claiming the army or those physically resurrected beings were made to be sinners with sinful nature's be adding to the text? Even saying there are survivors, when it says all died, would be adding to the text. Claiming there is a jump in history, and saying he was defeated at Armageddon, but was sent back to the first century to serve 2000 years bound in the pit is adding to the Scriptures.

If Satan was defeated at Armageddon what was the outcome? Two were sent to the lake of fire. Why would Satan sent to the pit not also be an outcome? It is not adding anything to the text. I am not judging you. I was pointing out what is or is not being added to the text.

If you are going strictly by those verses in chapter 22, that stating one's interpretation, thoughts, and opinion is adding to the text, we are all in trouble. I am not claiming the Bible should be changed. Are you? If amil is just opinions and not facts it should not change God's Word.

Spiritual Jew said:

Yes, because we all know that everything in the book of Revelation is literal, right?

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We should know what is and what is not. Claiming nothing is literal seems pretty reckless. Is Revelation 22:18-19 literal?

DavidPT said:

What is a possibility though, the millennium could be the first thousand years of the NHNE. And not that one comes first followed by the 2nd one. When Christ returns, will there or will there not be righteousness dwelling in the earth? If one says no, why wouldn't there be? How could there not be? If one says yes, how can one then still deny that the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

According to this verse, one can't have a place, wherein dwelleth righteousness, unless it also involves this---new heavens and a new earth.

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The Millennium would start at 6pm and followed by 12 hours of darkness. The new dawn brings the new heavens and earth of the Millennium.

Heaven and earth pass away, and all we see is the GWT, however at that moment are all bodies on earth and in Paradise, and the angels in heaven, just frozen in place until the NHNE appear around them?

One will know when one passes and the new begins. The Millennium starts with a resurrection after the dawn. Some will be resurrected to a new heaven and earth. No one is dead except those standing at the GWT. We do not know if some will not have to go to the Lake of Fire. I think the Lake of Fire is outside of reality.

Timtofly said:

We should know what is and what is not. Claiming nothing is literal seems pretty reckless. Is Revelation 22:18-19 literal?

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No one is claiming that "nothing is literal". Stop wasting your time making baseless accusations.

Timtofly said:

I was not adding Jesus Christ because He came down on a white horse and defeated Satan, the FP, and the beast. Jesus Christ did not go back to heaven in the text. The FP and beast were cast into the lake of fire. Satan was bound in the pit. Then the 1000 years started. The only being alive was Jesus Christ and His army. Then thrones were set up. His army sat down.

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Revelation 19 also does not specifically say anything about Jesus being on the earth, so if you're going to accuse me of adding things to the text then I guess I can accuse you of the same? But, I won't do that because I know we are just interpreting the text differently and neither of us are trying to purposely add to it.

Do you think I'm purposely adding to the text in order to make it fit my doctrine (which is what Rev 22:18 is about) rather than just merely misinterpreting the text? If so, then please don't talk to me ever again because I don't need to waste my time with someone who thinks I would do such a thing that would result in me receiving the plagues described in the book.

Spiritual Jew said:

Revelation 19 also does not specifically say anything about Jesus being on the earth

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It might be different if you were Preterist, since a lot of Preterists, or maybe all of them, don't even take Revelation 19 to be involving the 2nd coming, thus Jesus is not literally physically on the earth in their view. But since you don't fit a Preterist mindset concerning Revelation 19, are you then denying that Christ is even present bodily in Revelation 19?

But if you do see Him being present bodily in this chapter, are you envisioning Him hanging out in the sky the entire time, and that His armies with Him are hanging out in the sky the entire time with Him? I just can't make sense out of how one can think the 2nd coming doesn't even involve Christ coming to the earth and setting foot upon it. But I guess you being Amil, this would contradict your interpretation of 2 Peter 3, since Amils typically take most of that literally, except for the part about one day is as a thousand years, therefore they are apparently convinced the entire planet literally goes up in flames during the 2nd coming. So where does it depict anything like that in Revelation 19 then? I don't see anything like that depicted in that chapter.