When was the Church born?

Carl Emerson said:

Personally I think that this was the 'first love' referred to in Rev 2 that the church needs to return to.

Click to expand...

I also believe that lost 'first love' is a reference to a congregation who professes to love the Lord,
but only keep an "accommodation" to one another. The home fellowship is where I have found
the Holy Spirit to minister in the ways the apostles described. Failing to commit to this type of
relationship essentially defeats the point of being "In Christ".
Ephesians 4:
1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which
you were called,
2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love,
3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

And which congregation did the Lord admonish for leaving their first love?
Herein lies the real point. Have you read in Acts what happened at Ephesus?
Acts 19:20 So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed.
So if it could happen at Ephesus, where Paul remained for 2 years, and the Holy
Spirit manifested mightily, it could happen anywhere. It is no different than seeing
God Almighty descend on Mt Sinai, and then doubt His Word within 3 days.
We can only exhort and encourage, but we can't judge. If a group is not expecting
the Holy Spirit to show up at their meeting, He probably doesn't.

Carl Emerson said:

Why? I thought judgement within the church was appropriate. Peter certainly thought so... So did Paul...

Click to expand...

A judgment from leadership that rebukes and corrects is clearly appropriate. Generalized
condemnation that "the church" ignores early church practices also ignores home churches
and groups that do not. If there are people that only want to attend a Sunday service, the
leadership of their church are the ones who can encourage them to do more. Meanwhile, they
are still connected through their local congregation, and their home prayer life. Just because Acts
describes this committed church at the beginning, it also later describes a church at Jerusalem that
was persecuted and driven off. There are two meanings for the word judgment. Sound judgment
that leads to sound decisions, and judgment that is stated as inappropriate condemnation.
If there is a bigger concern, it is the latter.

Matthew 16:18 is when & where Jesus says he built it!

Carl Emerson said:

Hi there,

I am interested in opinions on when the Body of Christ, the Church was born.

Was it... Mark 3:
13 And He went up on the mountain and summoned those whom He Himself wanted, and they came to Him. 14 And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He could send them out to preach.


or... Luke 10:
1 Now after this the Lord appointed seventy-two others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.

or... Luke 10:
18 And He said to them, “I watched Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19 Behold, I have given you authority to walk on snakes and scorpions, and authority over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. 20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”


or ... John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit"

or... Acts 2:
When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly a noise like a violent rushing wind came from heaven, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And tongues that looked like fire appeared to them, distributing themselves, and a tongue rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with different tongues, as the Spirit was giving them the ability to speak out.

or... Acts 4:
27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and purpose predestined to occur. 29 And now, Lord, look at their threats, and grant it to Your bond-servants to speak Your word with all confidence, 30 while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.

or... Acts 14:
23 When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they entrusted them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

or... Something else...

The reason I ask is because many dismiss the accounts in early acts as not being prescriptive regarding normal life in the church. Yet in Revelation they were instructed to return to their first love and do what they did at first...

Click to expand...

Mountainmike said:

Matthew 16:18 is when & where Jesus says he built it!

Click to expand...

??
He said "I WILL build my church".
"Built" is past tense - the church is still growing.

Strong in Him said:

??
He said "I WILL build my church".
"Built" is past tense - the church is still growing.

Click to expand...

His future at the time he said it -but our past. No contradiction?

Mountainmike said:

His future at the time he said it -but our past. No contradiction?

Click to expand...

No, you said that Matt 16:18 tells us where, and when, Jesus built it; past tense - that suggests the church has been built and completed.
Except that it's still growing - all who become born again believers are members of Christ's body; his church. It is not something that stopped growing in the first century A.D

I never said it had stopped growing. The question was when was it born! I answered!
You are reading something never intended into the answer.
I referred to when the first stone was laid!

Strong in Him said:

No, you said that Matt 16:18 tells us where, and when, Jesus built it; past tense - that suggests the church has been built and completed.
Except that it's still growing - all who become born again believers are members of Christ's body; his church. It is not something that stopped growing in the first century A.D

Click to expand...

Mountainmike said:

I never said it had stopped growing. The question was when was it born!

Click to expand...

The OP asked when it was born, certainly.

Mountainmike said:

I answered!

Click to expand...

You said:

Mountainmike said:

Matthew 16:18 is when & where Jesus says he built it!

Click to expand...

Mountainmike said:

I referred to when the first stone was laid!

Click to expand...

I didn't realise that's what you were referring to.
"Built", to me, indicates something that's been made and completed - past tense. If the question had been, "when did Jesus begin to build his church", I would not have had a problem with your answer - though I might have disagreed and said it was when the 12 were chosen.

Carl Emerson said:

Yes - I agree with this...

I guess that in the OP I should have defined church...

Folks have different beliefs on when the church started depending on their definition of church.

I intended a discussion on New Covenant Church and when this was born.

Most folks say Pentecost.

If that is correct, then we can't dismiss the fact that 'community' recorded in Acts 4 was a fundamental element of church.

But we seem to have developed a different structure and called it church that has little evidence of sharing in many cases and certainly does not reach the goal of 'having no needy among them'.

These verses remain ignored and they are an embarrassment because our focus is not what it was when the church was born.

Personally I think that this was the 'first love' referred to in Rev 2 that the church needs to return to.

Click to expand...

Historically, community welfare programs have been part of the Christian ethos and Christian praxis. It's why the Church also sponsored the building of hospitals and orphanages, it's why collections are taken. Historically the taking of collections was to help meet the needs of others. It's why St. Paul has the churches take up a collection to be brought to Jerusalem during the famine, to meet the needs of the people suffering in the area.

Many churches continue to have functioning community, and community outreach, and community welfare work. Which is in keeping with the spirit of the apostolic practice since the beginning.

However, we need to keep this in mind: The book of the Acts of the Apostles is not a prescriptive work, but a descriptive one. The point of the text isn't to tell us how to be the Church, but rather to record and describe the apostolic work from Pentecost until St. Paul's first imprisonment in Rome. Description is not prescription.

It describes, for example, the outpouring of the Spirit on the household of Cornelius, and this momentous event was so profound as it was only the second time something like this happened (the first being on Pentecost), and was therefore God's sign for the Church to reach out, in earnest, to the Gentiles. But what this doesn't do is prescribe for us something that is to be done, repeated, as though Pentecost can happen again and again if we do the right things. This was an historic, momentous moment, and so its description is important, here is how God let the Church know that "all nations" doesn't just mean the Jewish Diaspora, or just Jews and Samaritans (Israelites), but all people, circumcised and uncircumcised without distinction.

Likewise, the description of Christians meeting in homes does not serve as a prescription that gathered Christian worship has to take place in a private domicile. It simply describes what happened. From further historical evidence we know that when Christians met in homes, that these homes were larger homes of the wealthier members of the community, who opened up their homes for this purpose--and could also afford to get construction work on their houses done that could actually serve as worship space. Which is why the archeological record shows us that such "house churches" were villas that were redesigned as places for Christian worship, having baptismal fonts installed, and large spaces for gathered worshipers to come and celebrate the liturgy.

As such, we need to understand what the Acts of the Apostles both is and isn't, it's not principally a prescriptive, but rather a descriptive text. It's not a blueprint for how the Church is to be organized and run, but rather the unfolding narrative of the apostolic work (the acta, the works, of the Apostles, hence the Acts of the Apostles).

-CryptoLutheran

Carl Emerson said:

So the Word of God is no longer a mirror... just parts of it are...

To me this is a massive cop-out to justify the lack of love and power in many churches.

It also ignores the prayer of Jesus in John 17 that the world, seeing our love and unity would be drawn to the Father.

It also denies the need for a humble and loving koinonia creating the atmosphere in which the gifts of the Spirit can operate.

This leads to unbelief in the gifts because they are not operating rather than addressing why.

As I have witnessed this breakout of love first hand with accompanying gifts operating and seen it die when human control set in for fear of the unknown territory that results.

So sadly not so much hope of many traditional churches seeing this, which means hugging close to Jesus and seeing Him move in our own private environment.

And somehow we excuse missionaries in the field who move in this truth for survival and fruitfulness because they are far enough away not to rock the boat back home.

And when they come to the end of their service they are kept at a distance lest their experience should challenge the status quo.

It is sad when many churches (not all) operate more like museums for a faith that once was.

And the heart of Jesus bleeds for life - not form.

Click to expand...

Sometimes the RCC has been accused of being a slumbering giant, there are many more churches that can fit that description. Hopefully those that burn for Jesus can lit up the churches.

"How can I rediscover my first love?"

Carl Emerson said:

Hi there,

I am interested in opinions on when the Body of Christ, the Church was born.

Was it... Mark 3:
13 And He went up on the mountain and summoned those whom He Himself wanted, and they came to Him. 14 And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He could send them out to preach.


or... Luke 10:
1 Now after this the Lord appointed seventy-two others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.

or... Luke 10:
18 And He said to them, “I watched Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19 Behold, I have given you authority to walk on snakes and scorpions, and authority over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. 20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”


or ... John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit"

or... Acts 2:
When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly a noise like a violent rushing wind came from heaven, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And tongues that looked like fire appeared to them, distributing themselves, and a tongue rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with different tongues, as the Spirit was giving them the ability to speak out.

or... Acts 4:
27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and purpose predestined to occur. 29 And now, Lord, look at their threats, and grant it to Your bond-servants to speak Your word with all confidence, 30 while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.

or... Acts 14:
23 When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they entrusted them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

or... Something else...

The reason I ask is because many dismiss the accounts in early acts as not being prescriptive regarding normal life in the church. Yet in Revelation they were instructed to return to their first love and do what they did at first...

Click to expand...

When he first person saw the light of John 1

Daniel Marsh said:

When he first person saw the light of John 1

Click to expand...

The first person to see the light of John1 was Adam, and then Eve.

Brother Judah or the (Jews) "is" a part of the plan of salvation.
(IN YESHUA). the temple of God is in its believers.
Salvation rests in our kinsmen redeemer.

some do not see who half the Christians are today.
(they are of the tribes....) including Judah.

the term caucasian is a special term. (where it stems from historically)

Judah (as a Nation) was blinded for a specific purpose.
but not all of Judah. so salvation can be also given (offered)to the gentiles.

Paul's ministry was special.
a three fold ministry it was. (as the bible states)

but the CHURCH (Ecclesia ) has Jesus as it's head.


sorry for the late reply....

Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Jesus taught THE LAW.
at the time He walked the earth salvation was for the 12 tribes.
(when He raised, the rules changed).

John 3:16 was truly implemented.
(for whomsoever would believe)

Judah (as a Nation) missed the first advent, but they shall not miss the second. This is taught time and time again.

The OT taught of 2 Advents.
even Saul who became Paul was blind to this fact.

Zech 9:9 (1st Advent)
Zech 9:10 (shows the second)
Isaiah 61 shows this too.


Jesus returns as KING , not a lamb to be slaughtered.

Carl Emerson said:

OK got it - but not each individual or church struggles with the specific weaknesses outlined...

What do you think are the deeds they did at first - in Rev 2:5 ???

Click to expand...

True, that each church assembly in the beginning acted differently with faith in Jesus Christ, I see; and it is true today! The Apostles sought to correct them as shown. Each of the several testimonies as described in Rev. 2 & 3 had different problems in their testimony (which is as I have been taught and observed). At Ephesus they "left their first love"; at Smyrna they suffered under great persecutions and "tribulations"; at Pergamos they tended to be "settled in the world" (note v. 15 about 'Nicolaitans' --- allowing 'rulers over laity' --a hierarchy rather than allow the "holy and royal priesthood" (as 1 Peter 2:5 & 9); at Thyatira God was against them for allowing 'Jezebel' to teach' ---often speaking of such treacherous ones to teach and control them; Sardis was described as "dead" and a need to change and overcome, else He would "blot out their name". Philadelphia was told that God was pleased with them and set before them "an open door"; At Laodicea God said they were "neither cold or hot" and need to change or He would come and "spue them out of My mouth". Studies show this as a picture of the Church down through the ages; Laodicea as yet today everywhere. Many Bible scholars speak of this as overall Church history; and ministry I have found shows actual conditions we can see in the universal Church to this present day.

Just sharing some things shown to me by many Bible teachers, brother, and seen in Scripture.

Carl Emerson said:

I am interested in opinions on when the Body of Christ, the Church was born.

Click to expand...

It began immediately after the Fall (Genesis 3:15) and it began at Pentecost (Acts 2).

In the Old Testament, the Church was not visible and established by way of covenant, yet there were men and women throughout that time who had heard the promises and prophetical statements, saw the shadows and types in the Law, regarding the Savior and through saving faith became (retrospectively) partakers in the same salvation we now obtain. They were no less united to Christ by faith and were therefore part of his mystical body - the church.

The New Covenant, which was inaugurated after the death, resurrection and ascension of the Lord, formally established and made visible the Church in the world, along with instituting its own worship and governance.