Contrary to what Premil teaches: Revelation 20 does not locate Jesus on earth!

chad kincham · Apr 26, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
You are saying that the purpose of the millennium would be to teach people the difference between 1) Jesus ruling the nations for a thousand years with the resulting peace, lack of evil and long life and 2) Satan being god of this world for thousands of years. And, yet, Rev 20:7-9 tells us that a number "as the sand of the seashore" would rebel against Christ when the thousand years ended.

Why would such a vast number of people choose Satan over Christ despite having seen how superior the conditions on earth would be during Christ's reign compared to Satan's reign? Wouldn't someone have to be completely insane to pick Satan over Christ after seeing firsthand for a long time how much superior things are when Christ is in charge compared to Satan?

What I said is accurate- the object lesson isn’t for humanity as much as for all creation, especially all the angels.

Satan lied about God successfully enough that a third of the angels believed the lies, and warred against God.

The millennial reign starkly shows the difference between Satan being god of this world for thousands of years, and all the evil, pain, and suffering the devil caused, and Jesus, who is God, ruling the world for a thousand years, with peace, no suffering, and no misery.

It shows all creation that Satan is a liar, is evil, and his punishment is just.

In case you missed it, the Bible is clear that this life is a test - we must overcome Satan and his lies as part of the test, and follow God and Jesus

Thus everyone born when Satan was bound, needs to be tested by the devil and overcome his lies, and believe in, and follow God, too - thus he’s released at the end of the millennium.

1Jn 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

friend of · Apr 26, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
So, do you think the first coming of Christ had no impact on Satan then?

How do you interpret passages like these:

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Yes of course Christ has already won the war. But all the battles have not played out yet. Both yourself and SG seem to think there are no more battles being played out as we speak. I'm living proof that that isn't true, as I battle with the flesh daily.

Timtofly · Apr 26, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
So these are redeemed who are raised from the dead and follow Christ in their corruptible bodies and then switch their allegiance to Satan when he appears and turn against Christ and all the other redeemed in their corruptible bodies?

No. It would be their great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandchildren. They have sin free incorruptible bodies, the first physical resurrection type body, that you will recieve. They listen to Satan, just like Eve did.

Timtofly · Apr 26, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Amils believe the millennium is the same ole same ole, as it relates to this evil age. It is the false Premil portrayal I challenge.

You do not accept a Sovereign God then. You open your arms wide to Satan's type of age.

The Millennium is the Lord's Day, set apart and Holy unto God.

Timtofly · Apr 27, 2021

TribulationSigns said:
All that was not with Christ were the enemies that were gathered together against Jerusalem. He was talking about the Scribes, the Pharisees, and all people deceived by them. The enemies all came against Christ at the Cross. As it is written about His people coming against Christ!

So your claim is that the white horse and the battle of Armageddon was a symbolic reference to the Cross? Was the Cross white? It was Pilate (the AC), the Sanhedrin (FP), and Satan and they sent out spirits like frogs to call together the mob of 10 nations to Crucify Jesus, and that is the story behind Revelation 19 and 20?

That is some allegorical twisting going on.

Timtofly · Apr 27, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
This post is beyond ridiculous. Amil obviously interprets the text differently than premil, but in no way, shape or form are we trying to add to the prophecy. That verse you quoted is talking about someone purposely adding things to the prophecy which Amils are not doing. If our interpretation is wrong, so be it. But, we are not purposely trying to add to the text.

You add sin and corruptible bodies to the text.

Timtofly · Apr 27, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
What are you talking about? Of course it will be literal fire and I didn't say otherwise. I believe 2 Peter 3:10-12 is the same event as Rev 20:9 and they are talking about literal fire coming down upon Christ's enemies on the earth.

Again, what are you talking about? What does what you're saying here have to do with Revelation 20:7-9?

If the fire is literal it comes down from a literal heaven to a literal earth where literal people are literally reigning with Christ for a literal 1000 years.

Timtofly · Apr 27, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
You are saying that the purpose of the millennium would be to teach people the difference between 1) Jesus ruling the nations for a thousand years with the resulting peace, lack of evil and long life and 2) Satan being god of this world for thousands of years. And, yet, Rev 20:7-9 tells us that a number "as the sand of the seashore" would rebel against Christ when the thousand years ended.

Why would such a vast number of people choose Satan over Christ despite having seen how superior the conditions on earth would be during Christ's reign compared to Satan's reign? Wouldn't someone have to be completely insane to pick Satan over Christ after seeing firsthand for a long time how much superior things are when Christ is in charge compared to Satan?

Was Eve insane when she listened to Satan?

Timtofly · Apr 27, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

The whole city is the temple. There was no need for a building that God resides in like the Holy Place in previous earthly temples.

The comparison is that water flows out of New Jerusalem, that temple instead of a Temple in current earthly Jerusalem.

In the NHNE New Jerusalem is the Nation sized Temple in the middle of the earth which would be like Jerusalem. There is only the Lake of Fire outside of Jerusalem (NE), and the huge square called New Jerusalem is the temple of this earth wide Jerusalem.

That is why Zechariah 14 does not make sense as the NHNE. It is still the geography of current Jerusalem. No one seems to see that the NHNE is a totally different reality and cannot be geographically explained. The OT prophets were not talking about a new reality. They were talking about the Lord's Day. The Millennium prior to the NHNE.

DavidPT · Apr 27, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
What are you talking about? Of course it will be literal fire and I didn't say otherwise. I believe 2 Peter 3:10-12 is the same event as Rev 20:9 and they are talking about literal fire coming down upon Christ's enemies on the earth.

Again, what are you talking about? What does what you're saying here have to do with Revelation 20:7-9?

Let's examine some of this closer in order to see if there is any logic to it.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Per Amil this is meaning in this age up until the 2nd coming, the 2nd coming apparently involving this part---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Per Amil the beast would be among those compassing the camp of saints. Verse 9 indicates that everyone attacking them, fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Logic says that no one can possibly still be alive after getting devoured by literal fire from God out of heaven. The text clearly says they were devoured, meaning every single one of them, obviously.

Let's now turn back to Revelation 19 and compare some of those events to what is recorded in verse 9 in Revelation 20---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them--since Amils insist these are speaking of the same events.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Combining this with Revelation 20:9, it might look like this.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Who and what does the text indicate the fire from God out of heaven devours? Is it not all of the following? the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies---isn't that who the fire from God out of heaven devours, as in, none of these are any longer alive after being devoured by the fire?

So now let's look at the next verse in order to see if it agrees or disagrees when we combine Revelation 19:19 and Revelation 20:9 like we just did.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

A cpl of things to note. The text indicates the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet, and these both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone---thus contradicting what we just combined from the two accounts. When we combine the two accounts like we did, the text clearly has the beast being among those attacking, and among those that are devoured by fire from God out of heaven. So why is verse 20 above instead indicating the beast was taken, obviously not devoured by fire from God out of heaven, and that the beast was cast alive into the LOF, further proving he was not devoured by fire from God out of heaven, because if he had been, he wouldn't still be alive to talk about what it was like to be devoured by fire from God out of heaven?

Which should we believe? Amil's combined account involving Revelation 19:19 and Revelation 20:9, which then contradicts Revelation 19:20? Or should we instead believe what Revelation 19 records, and what Revelation 20 records, and that none of these involve the same events?

Spiritual Jew · Apr 27, 2021

chad kincham said:
What I said is accurate- the object lesson isn’t for humanity as much as for all creation, especially all the angels.

Satan lied about God successfully enough that a third of the angels believed the lies, and warred against God.

The millennial reign starkly shows the difference between Satan being god of this world for thousands of years, and all the evil, pain, and suffering the devil caused, and Jesus, who is God, ruling the world for a thousand years, with peace, no suffering, and no misery.

It shows all creation that Satan is a liar, is evil, and his punishment is just.

In case you missed it, the Bible is clear that this life is a test - we must overcome Satan and his lies as part of the test, and follow God and Jesus

Right. That's how it has been for about 6,000 years now. Why would it ever be different? What you are describing is nothing more than speculation on your part. Scripture never says what you're saying here. The difference between Satan and Christ is already abundantly clear. We don't need a future 1000 year time period to show that and scripture never teaches that a future time period would be necessary to prove that.

Thus everyone born when Satan was bound, needs to be tested by the devil and overcome his lies, and believe in, and follow God, too - thus he’s released at the end of the millennium.

1Jn 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Why did you quote these verses? None of these verses have anything to do with a future thousand year time period.

Spiritual Jew · Apr 27, 2021

friend of said:
Yes of course Christ has already won the war. But all the battles have not played out yet. Both yourself and SG seem to think there are no more battles being played out as we speak. I'm living proof that that isn't true, as I battle with the flesh daily.

That is not at all what either of us have said.

I asked you how you interpret passages like Hebrews 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8 and you didn't answer the question. Before, you were acting as if Christ's death and resurrection had no impact on Satan. Is that what you believe? If not, then please tell me what affect Christ's death and resurrection had on Satan. Because passages like Hebrews 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8 relate to Satan's binding, in my opinion.

Spiritual Jew · Apr 27, 2021

Timtofly said:
You add sin and corruptible bodies to the text.

What are you talking about? I'm not adding anything to the text. I'm merely interpreting it differently than you. Should I say that you are adding to the prophecy in Revelation 20 when you say it talks about Jesus being on the earth when it never specifically mentions that? No, I wouldn't do that. I would just say that you are misinterpreting that passage.

I don't appreciate you trying to act as if the following verse that you quoted applies to me:

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

This is talking about someone purposely adding things to the prophecy that they know are not there, which is not what I'm doing. If someone is misinterpreting the prophecy, they are not purposely adding to it. So, this verse has nothing to do with misinterpreting the words of the prophecy of the book of Revelation.

Spiritual Jew · Apr 27, 2021

Timtofly said:
If the fire is literal it comes down from a literal heaven to a literal earth where literal people are literally reigning with Christ for a literal 1000 years.

Yes, because we all know that everything in the book of Revelation is literal, right?

Spiritual Jew · Apr 27, 2021

DavidPT said:
Let's examine some of this closer in order to see if there is any logic to it.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Per Amil this is meaning in this age up until the 2nd coming, the 2nd coming apparently involving this part---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Per Amil the beast would be among those compassing the camp of saints. Verse 9 indicates that everyone attacking them, fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Logic says that no one can possibly still be alive after getting devoured by literal fire from God out of heaven. The text clearly says they were devoured, meaning every single one of them, obviously.

Let's now turn back to Revelation 19 and compare some of those events to what is recorded in verse 9 in Revelation 20---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them--since Amils insist these are speaking of the same events.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Combining this with Revelation 20:9, it might look like this.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Who and what does the text indicate the fire from God out of heaven devours? Is it not all of the following? the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies---isn't that who the fire from God out of heaven devours, as in, none of these are any longer alive after being devoured by the fire?

So now let's look at the next verse in order to see if it agrees or disagrees when we combine Revelation 19:19 and Revelation 20:9 like we just did.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

A cpl of things to note. The text indicates the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet, and these both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone---thus contradicting what we just combined from the two accounts. When we combine the two accounts like we did, the text clearly has the beast being among those attacking, and among those that are devoured by fire from God out of heaven. So why is verse 20 above instead indicating the beast was taken, obviously not devoured by fire from God out of heaven, and that the beast was cast alive into the LOF, further proving he was not devoured by fire from God out of heaven, because if he had been, he wouldn't still be alive to talk about what it was like to be devoured by fire from God out of heaven?

Which should we believe? Amil's combined account involving Revelation 19:19 and Revelation 20:9, which then contradicts Revelation 19:20? Or should we instead believe what Revelation 19 records, and what Revelation 20 records, and that none of these involve the same events?

Once again, as is your custom, you try to force me to interpret things based on your overall understanding. I'm not obligated to do that. Everything you said here is based on your assumption that the beast is a human being. As in, some Antichrist person that futurists like you believe will appear in the future. That is not my understanding of the beast as I've said many times before.

The beast is not an individual person. Remember, Revelation 17:8 indicates that at the time John wrote the book the beast WAS, is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss/bottomless pit. How can that describe an individual person? It can't. In Daniel 7:23 beasts are described as kingdoms, so that is how the beast should be understood rather than as an individual person.

I can anticipate your next question. Then how can the beast and false prophet (second beast) be cast alive into the lake of fire if they are not human beings? Because they are figurative/symbolic entities. A figurative beast isn't literally alive. A figurative beast is figuratively alive. Even death and hell (Hades) will be cast into the lake of fire, so we shouldn't assume that only living beings (angels and humans) can be cast into the lake of fire.

DavidPT · Apr 27, 2021

Timtofly said:
That is why Zechariah 14 does not make sense as the NHNE. It is still the geography of current Jerusalem. No one seems to see that the NHNE is a totally different reality and cannot be geographically explained. The OT prophets were not talking about a new reality. They were talking about the Lord's Day. The Millennium prior to the NHNE.

What is a possibility though, the millennium could be the first thousand years of the NHNE. And not that one comes first followed by the 2nd one. When Christ returns, will there or will there not be righteousness dwelling in the earth? If one says no, why wouldn't there be? How could there not be? If one says yes, how can one then still deny that the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

According to this verse, one can't have a place, wherein dwelleth righteousness, unless it also involves this---new heavens and a new earth.

sovereigngrace · Apr 27, 2021

DavidPT said:
It's one thing when Amils don't want to consider anything Premils propose, but why be closed-minded to what other Amils propose because their interpretation of something is not the typical Amil interpretation of that something in question?

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

How is it possible that this can already be true in this age before the 2nd coming even happens first? How can verse 8 not be meaning during the time of verse 11? How can verse 11 be meaning before or even during the time of verse 2, rather than after the time of verse 2?

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Does it look like Jerusalem is safely inhabited at the time, one of the requirements for verse 11?

Obviously then, the fulfillment of verse 11 is meaning a time post the fulfillment of verse 2. How can it not be? That indicates that the fulfillment of verse 8 is also meaning a time post that of verse 2, the fact verse 8 is meaning during the time of verse 11.

The question is, since verse 8 and 11 are clearly meaning during the time of the new Jerusalem, and that you can't have the NJ without there first being the new heavens and new earth, can this even work with Premil?'

I have to say yes, based on verses 16-19, since that too is obviously meaning a time post that of verse 2, plus it's meaning after the fulfillment of verse 12, and that verse 12 is yet to be fulfilled. Verses 16-19 are clearly meaning during the time of verse 11, which then presents a major problem if there is not a thousand years after the 2nd coming. That means that what is recorded in verses 16-19, it will be like that for all eternity, that some will be under the threat of punishment for refusing to come up to Jerusalem or else. But if there is a thousand years after the 2nd coming, this at least provides an end to this threat of punishment eventually.

Apparently, Amils participating in this thread don't even think Zechariah 14 locates Jesus on earth at anytime in this chapter, except for maybe verse 4, which some apply literally, to be meaning when Christ lived on the earth during His first coming. Anyone paying closer attention to the text though, they can easily see that verse 4 is meaning a time chronologically after that of verse 2, not a time chronologically prior to it instead.

When it comes to a chapter such as Zechariah 14, what it seems to boil down to, how good is one at playing connect the dots?

I believe Zechariah was looking forward to both the First Advent and AD70.

I believe there are multiple reasons to reject your thesis. Let me give some of the main ones.

(1) Please remember, this is Premil's No 2 proof-text and, yet, they cannot give us any compelling or reasonable correlation between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20. There is therefore not the slightest support for what Premils attribute to either Zechariah 14 and Revelation 2. Premils typically skip around any request to identify the main Premil events in Zechariah 14. The question is: where does Zechariah 14 make the remotest allusion to any of the detail described at the end of Revelation 20 and therefore the millennium, including the gathering of Gog and Magog to fight the camp of the saints, the destruction of the wicked in total, the destruction of the old earth and heavens and the replacement with the new, the resurrection of the wicked and “Great White Throne Judgement of sinners” 1,000 years after the judgement of the righteous?

Until you do that we have the right to dismiss your claims.

(2) With an obscure passage like Zechariah 14, it is incumbent upon all of us to interpret it in the light of the clearer and more-detailed NT, especially non-symbolic passages.

(3) A helpful pointer that should aid the open-minded reader dissect the book of Zechariah is the phrase “in that day.” It connects the whole book together. It is mentioned 20 times in this Old Testament prophecy. It is extremely notable that reference after reference to “in that day” actually refers to the 1st Advent. Zechariah 14 also describes AD 70 and the spread of the Gospel to the darkened nations. The frequent usage of this statement throughout the whole book reveals a harmonious theme, proves its unity and shows how it looked forward to “that day” when the Messiah would finally appear.

(4) I believe Amils are strong in interpreting Scripture with Scripture, especially if we are dealing with a challenging OT passage. The gospels quote from Zechariah, explaining how it explicitly relates to the First Advent and specifically the cross.

Zechariah 12:10 says, “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

John 19:30-37 says, “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, they shall look on him whom they pierced.”

This passage correlates with Zechariah 12:2-3, which says, “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.”

Jesus said in Matthew 23:37–39: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.”

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress (anagke) in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Zechariah 13:6 says, “And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.”

John 19:5-7 records, “Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man! When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.”

John 1:10-11 says, “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”

Acts 2:36 says, “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Acts 4:10 states, “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.”

Acts 3:26 records, “Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”

Zechariah 13, v7, states, “Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.”

Zechariah 14:5 predicts, “ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.”

I believe, we see a reference to the earthly ministry of Christ and particularly His final betrayal. Matthew 26:31 says, “Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written (in Zechariah 13:7), I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.”

In Mark 14 we see an account of the arrest of Christ for crucifixion. Even those nearest and dearest to Him could not stand with Him at this dark hour. Verse 50 tells us: “And they all forsook him, and fled.”

Zechariah 14:4 says, “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.”

The prophets frequently intermixed literal and figurative language all the time. That makes it difficult to dissect. Even in the midst of the most literal of passages in the Bible, mountains are repeatedly used to impress deep spiritual truths. The predicted mountain moving ministry of John the Baptist is a case-in-point. The result of the cross saw the Gospel go out to both Jew and Gentile alike. The scope of the cross-work reached far-and-wide.

Luke 3:4-5 records, speaking of that great forerunner of Christ – John the Baptist, “As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet (in Isaiah 40:3-5), saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth.”

John 4:10, 14: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water ... But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

The living waters is the Holy Spirit. The former sea represents Old Testament Israel and the hinder sea represents the overwhelmingly Gentile New Testament Church. It figuratively represents the Gospel going out to the Jews and the Gentiles through the power of the Holy Spirit.

sovereigngrace · Apr 27, 2021

DavidPT said:
It's one thing when Amils don't want to consider anything Premils propose, but why be closed-minded to what other Amils propose because their interpretation of something is not the typical Amil interpretation of that something in question?

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

How is it possible that this can already be true in this age before the 2nd coming even happens first? How can verse 8 not be meaning during the time of verse 11? How can verse 11 be meaning before or even during the time of verse 2, rather than after the time of verse 2?

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Does it look like Jerusalem is safely inhabited at the time, one of the requirements for verse 11?

Obviously then, the fulfillment of verse 11 is meaning a time post the fulfillment of verse 2. How can it not be? That indicates that the fulfillment of verse 8 is also meaning a time post that of verse 2, the fact verse 8 is meaning during the time of verse 11.

The question is, since verse 8 and 11 are clearly meaning during the time of the new Jerusalem, and that you can't have the NJ without there first being the new heavens and new earth, can this even work with Premil?'

I have to say yes, based on verses 16-19, since that too is obviously meaning a time post that of verse 2, plus it's meaning after the fulfillment of verse 12, and that verse 12 is yet to be fulfilled. Verses 16-19 are clearly meaning during the time of verse 11, which then presents a major problem if there is not a thousand years after the 2nd coming. That means that what is recorded in verses 16-19, it will be like that for all eternity, that some will be under the threat of punishment for refusing to come up to Jerusalem or else. But if there is a thousand years after the 2nd coming, this at least provides an end to this threat of punishment eventually.

Apparently, Amils participating in this thread don't even think Zechariah 14 locates Jesus on earth at anytime in this chapter, except for maybe verse 4, which some apply literally, to be meaning when Christ lived on the earth during His first coming. Anyone paying closer attention to the text though, they can easily see that verse 4 is meaning a time chronologically after that of verse 2, not a time chronologically prior to it instead.

When it comes to a chapter such as Zechariah 14, what it seems to boil down to, how good is one at playing connect the dots?

Zechariah 14:1 declares, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”

Isaiah 53:11-12 says, "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Christ confirms the meaning of these Old Testament prophecies in Luke 11, when He alludes to Zechariah 14, whilst speaking of His own assault upon Satan and his dark kingdom. Jesus said, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man (Satan) armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him (namely Jesus), he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).

Ephesians 4:8-10 says, “when he (Christ) ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.).”

Zechariah 14:4 says, “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives.”

Zechariah 9:9-10 predicted: “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass … and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.”

Zechariah 14:9: “And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.”

Luke 19:36-38 says, “And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.”

John 12:12-15 parallels saying: "On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt."

As the Lord’s ministry came to an end on earth we see Him entering into Jerusalem triumphant on a donkey. He received the adoration of the people. Matthew 21:1: "And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples, Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon. And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way. And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest. And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this? And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee...But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude"

Listen to Christ’s response to Pilate’s question in John 18:36-37. Pilate asked: “Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”

He is risen and He is reigning! He is ruling over everything! This is happening right now! Check out the actual original text and check out the tenses involved.

Colossians 1:15-17 addresses the great providential reign of Christ over all creation. Stating, Christ, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

Christ sovereignly reigns in kingly power over all creation.

1 Corinthians 15:25-28, saying: “he must reign (present tense), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For ‘he hath put’ (present tense) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued (or subordinated) unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

Hebrews 1:1-3, 2:6-8 says, “God … hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things … Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: ‘Thou hast put all things in subjection’ (present tense) under his feet. For in that ‘he put all in subjection’ (present tense) under him, he left nothing that is not put under him."

Here we see our Lord’s awesome authority.

Zechariah 14:2-3 says, “For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.”

Paul the Apostle outlines this fact, when speaking of the Jews and the impending wrath of God on the nation of Israel, in 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, “For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.”

Spiritual Jew · Apr 27, 2021

DavidPT said:
What is a possibility though, the millennium could be the first thousand years of the NHNE. And not that one comes first followed by the 2nd one. When Christ returns, will there or will there not be righteousness dwelling in the earth? If one says no, why wouldn't there be? How could there not be? If one says yes, how can one then still deny that the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

According to this verse, one can't have a place, wherein dwelleth righteousness, unless it also involves this---new heavens and a new earth.

How can what is described in Revelation 20:9 occur on the new earth in light of what it says about the conditions of the new earth here:

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

TribulationSigns · Apr 27, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Once again, as is your custom, you try to force me to interpret things based on your overall understanding. I'm not obligated to do that.

Agreed. We should interpret things according to Scripture. Not anyone's understanding.

Everything you said here is based on your assumption that the beast is a human being. As in, some Antichrist person that futurists like you believe will appear in the future. That is not my understanding of the beast as I've said many times before.

Agreed.

The beast is not an individual person.

Right.

Remember, Revelation 17:8 indicates that at the time John wrote the book the beast WAS, is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss/bottomless pit. How can that describe an individual person? It can't.

My thought exactly. I have heard many "theories" that futurists made. One for exmaple, the spirit of the beast that was will appear in human being after his resurrection from fatal head wound. (rolling eyes).

In Daniel 7:23 beasts are described as kingdoms, so that is how the beast should be understood rather than as an individual person.

How indeed.

The beast is a spiritual kingdom, a body of Satan, under the sovereignty control of God. They insisted the image or the beasts in the book of Daniel to be literal nations or empires. They will think it is ridiculous to believe that the beasts to be symbolic of something instead of world empires in history. For example:

They think it ridiculous that an image in Daniel of four beasts, one looking like a lion with wings, one like a bear, and another like a leopard could symbolize the rule of Satan throughout earth history?

Hummm!

Then let me ask them "pointedly" if they also think it ridiculous that in Revelation a very similar image of four living creatures in the book of Revelation, with wings, one creature like a lion, another like a calf, another with a face as a man, and the fourth like a flying eagle, could be symbolic of the rule of Christ?

You see it's not strange or ridiculous at all. Christ is the eternal promise of the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Christ is the calf or Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, Christ is the Man who would take away the sins of the world, and Christ is the eagle, the protector of all His people under His wings. So no...this type of interpretation is not Ridiculous at all.

...Selah!

In case they haven't learned yet, scripture interprets scripture, not man, not history books, not a popular opinion, and most certainly not Church tradition (though I readily admit, most Christians today may THINK so like some people here does). Satan is the spirit and rule that contrasts the Spirit and Rule of God. He is the pseudo-Christ, the antithesis of God. So it is not only "not ridiculous," and, not only plausible, but these contrasting four creatures and four beasts reveal the truth of it.

The Bible is its own interpreter. Is not the waters that bring life contrasted with the poisons that bring death? Is not the lamb contrasted with the wolf? Is not the good tree contrasted with the bad tree? Israel with Israel, children with children, sacrifice with sacrifice? So no, it's not ridiculous, it's exactly what we would expect if we have been studying the scriptures and know the consistency of God in His perfect design, cryptic imagery, and Biblical harmony. The symbolism isn't new or different, only the meaning is. No, it's not odd that God's Kingdom construct is symbolized by four living creatures, a Lion, a Lamb a Man, and Eagle's wings, while Satan's kingdom construct is symbolized by four beasts, a Lion with wings, and Bear and a leopard. It's not an odd interpretation at all, it's in harmony with the interpretations seen throughout the whole Bible. That the wind of heaven brought these four beasts is not odd either, as it illustrates God's immutable sovereignty over even this. God Himself sends these four beasts, which are DEFINITELY NOT four physical nations. Observe carefully what God told Israel:

Hosea 13:7-9

"Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help."

God will be unto them "AS" the Lion, the Leopard and the Bear, and come against his old testament unfaithful and rebellious Israel. Sound familiar? Likewise, today, God will appear to His unfaithful New Testament Congregation by allowing the enemies into her as a judgment upon her!

Selah!

But, as I say, it's Spiritually discerned, so indeed many may dismiss this, but the wise will understand that all is not as it seems. It is foolish who mook things they do not understand.

Contrary to what Premil teaches: Revelation 20 does not locate Jesus on earth!

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