Why do some feel a tug towards God and others nothing?

Andrewn

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I am fairly new to this conversation, but soteriology is one thing that confuses me, especially considering my own walk. I do not consider myself to have strong faith, but I do want God more than anything, and I take salvation as a process, sometimes lifelong.

I am not very good with chapter and verse quoting, but when I read the Bible, it is not apparent to me that God makes everyone incapable of responding to Him.
You're absolutely right in your entire message and are not confused at all. Predestinarianism is a heresy that is upheld only by the Reformed, Presbyterians, and most Baptists. All other Christians in the past 2000 years understood soteriology correctly, like you do.
 
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GOD Shines Forth!

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I believe all are called, but few peruse it, instead they are closed off and harden their hearts. We know that if they continually harden their hearts after a time God will leave them to it.

This is my understanding.
 
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GOD Shines Forth!

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You're right, that immediately spring to my mind. I remember watching both of them on TV sitting side by side denouncing the Bible and Christianity back in the 70s.

Me, too. I remember thinking she was a real piece of work! In some sense she was just one of those pushy types who go around lashing out at the world, getting energy from pushing people's buttons. Sad way for her and her other son to end.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Jesus didnt endure excruciating agony and humiliation just for a few. His blood is for everyone and his hand is reached out to everyone, not all want to accept it preferring to mock or scoff through ego or selfishness. No one dies without Gods fingerprints on their life.
Your poetic idea that nobody dies without God's fingerprints on their life stands regardless of whether he 'died for everyone' or not.

That God's offer to everyone is valid, (in that had they chosen him, their sins would have been forgiven), does not mean that his death forgave all of their sins, else you would have him die in vain for some. He did not.
 
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Andrewn

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Your poetic idea that nobody dies without God's fingerprints on their life stands regardless of whether he 'died for everyone' or not.

That God's offer to everyone is valid, (in that had they chosen him, their sins would have been forgiven), does not mean that his death forgave all of their sins, else you would have him die in vain for some. He did not.
Even though I disagree with Calvinist ideas, I haven't noticed that Calvinists behave any differently. They send missions and practice social hospitality like other Christians. Some of the nicest people I ever met are Calvinists even though the theology believes that some people are not chosen and predestined to perdition. In fact, I considered joining a nearby Reformed church regardless of the theology. No church is perfect, and a theologically perfect church may not have a nice pastor and congregation.

Do you think Calvinist theology affects behavior in any way?
 
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tturt

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Another Scripture that says "all" - "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Rom 1:20
 
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TedT

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God Loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved. Why would God want something to do with you and not the person next to you?
GOD loves them but is constrained by HIS promise to us all that our free will decisions would be accepted as sacrosanct, untouchable, unchangeable, by HIM for any reason

When the reprobate chose to put their faith in the idea that YHWH was lying about being our GOD and that salvation from sin was only found in the Son (the whole idea of sin and judgement was scorned) they became sinners, enslaved to the addictive power of sin and unable to ever save themselves from the legal and natural consequences of their choice.

But by reudiating HIM, they also cut themselves off from the only power that could bring them back to repentance and redemption thus self making themselves as eternally sinful and evil, ie, unforgivable.

When an innocent person chose by their free will to put their faith in HIM as telling us the truth that HE was our GOD and salvation from sin was only found in the Son, we were essentially asking HIM to interfere with our sinful wills if we should ever sin and help us to change by the process of redemption and sanctification. Being chosen to be the recipient of HIS promise to save us from the legal and natural consequences of the choice to be evil and ensure our place in the heavenly marriage was our election before the foundation of the world.

This is why some sinners are never condemned and others are condemned already: Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. and this is why HE loves one sinner but ignores the sinner beside him., ie, election and reprobation in response to our free will faith for or against HIM.
 
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bling

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You did a great job of explaining Romans 9. Kudos.

I don't see how that changes anything I've said, though even from what you said there is little I see that I disagree with.

For example, at the end you say, : "Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor." If that is true, it is not shown by the passage as doctrine. The tone of the passage is that God is sovereign and has designated some vessels for one use, some for another. No mention is made their of the vessels choosing anything --that is found elsewhere.

Also, you left out the contextual conversation and statement: "Who are you, O man, to question God?"
The “dishonorable vessels cleansing themselves to become vessels of honor”, comes from 2 Tim. 2:20 and that was the verses I was referencing.

2Tim.2:20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

You are right to say this concept is not discussed in Ro. 9, but in 2 Tim. 2:21 you have the exact same words used by Paul again presenting a similar analogy as he did in Ro. 9.

In 2 Tim 2:21 you have the τιμὴν (timēn) meaning honorable, special, highly prized and also, we have ἀτιμίαν (atimian) meaning common, disgraceful, dishonorable, which are the exact same words Paul uses again in Ro.9.

The point is: a wealthy home owner is not going to have anything dishonorable in his house, but would have lots of common vessels in his house (not made of silver and gold).

Many translators pick up on Paul’s use of τιμὴν (timēn) and ἀτιμίαν (atimian) and translate these words special and common in Ro.9, again the potter makes both special and common vessels and puts his mark on the bottom of both, because they fit their purpose.

In both Ro. 9 and 2 Tim. 2:21 Paul is referring to the differences in people and the way they are born (come out of the shop). In 2Tim. 2 Paul also conveys the idea people can change themselves, so the vessel is not fixed from the beginning, but can change (this is not talked about in Ro.9).

In Ro. 9 Paul is trying to get across the idea it does not matter whether you left the Potter’s shop (were born) for a very special purpose (Jews) or a common purpose (Gentiles), since everything that left the shop (was born) with the mark of the Potter.

What is made for destruction then? The Potter does not make objects for destruction (like clay pigeons), but any vessel that leaves the shop can be changed by the individual vessel (this is seen in 2 Tim.2:21). If the vessel (common or special) develops a crack and leaks, it is not worthy of the Potter’s mark and should be destroyed (people of the first century would understand this).

The problem is in suggesting the Potter (God) makes stuff to be destroyed (some humans), since nothing would leave His shop (be born) of no value.
 
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bling

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Not even if HE chose the one's HE wanted by a good, righteous and just reason and passed over the others for good, righteous and just reasons?
There is nothing in scripture to suggest anyone had a previous life and lots to suggest life began for all of us on earth.
God loves all of us, so it is not God's fault (His passing over us) that some are lost, but most mature adults will not humble themselves to the point of being willing to accept pure undeserved charity.
 
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bling

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GOD loves them but is constrained by HIS promise to us all that our free will decisions would be accepted as sacrosanct, untouchable, unchangeable, by HIM for any reason

When the reprobate chose to put their faith in the idea that YHWH was lying about being our GOD and that salvation from sin was only found in the Son (the whole idea of sin and judgement was scorned) they became sinners, enslaved to the addictive power of sin and unable to ever save themselves from the legal and natural consequences of their choice.

But by reudiating HIM, they also cut themselves off from the only power that could bring them back to repentance and redemption thus self making themselves as eternally sinful and evil, ie, unforgivable.

When an innocent person chose by their free will to put their faith in HIM as telling us the truth that HE was our GOD and salvation from sin was only found in the Son, we were essentially asking HIM to interfere with our sinful wills if we should ever sin and help us to change by the process of redemption and sanctification. Being chosen to be the recipient of HIS promise to save us from the legal and natural consequences of the choice to be evil and ensure our place in the heavenly marriage was our election before the foundation of the world.

This is why some sinners are never condemned and others are condemned already: Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. and this is why HE loves one sinner but ignores the sinner beside him., ie, election and reprobation in response to our free will faith for or against HIM.
God have promised from the beginning to save those who turn and accept His pure undeserved charity as pure charity, but He did not have to at that point have to have names of people.

Yes! God has perfect foreknowledge from the beginning of time, of everyone throughout time who humbly accepted His help (charity) as pure undeserved charity, but that did not keep individuals over time from rejecting His pure undeserving charity.
 
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TedT

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God created human beings and saw that his work was very good, Genesis 1:31.
When GOD declared all to be very good all included the fallen Satanic demons held in Tartarus...so I doubt the word good can refer to all HIS creation. I suspect that it referred to the earth as being good for, ie, perfect for, HIS PURPOSE of the sanctification of the sinful elect, the ending of the postponement of the judgement due to the sins of the sinful elect and the burning of the reprobate weeds aka goats as per the parable of the weeds Matt 13.
 
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TedT

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I don't know.
Have those who feel nothing really heard the Gospel...?
Rom 1:18-20 says they have because GOD made it plain to them. It is also implied in the words has been proclaimed in Col 1:23 which verb form indicates a finished, completed action in the past which is then repeated. The gospel proclaimed to every creature under heaven is a fait accompli, a finished action and everyone heard it.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Along with you can lose your salvation if you turn your back on God VS if you turn your back on God you were never saved to begin with; There's God predestined who would except him and who wouldn't vs God knew in advance who would choose to except him and who wouldn't, and let those who wouldn't be born anyways.
 
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TedT

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Drawing all people does not imply that all people will accept Jesus' invitation. He forces no
one because He is not a rapist.
Yes of course, but...but that means there are some people who will suffer eternal hell who could have been saved but were not because by their evil enslaved will they rejected HIM for too long.

GOD is love.
Love is patient.
For GOD to quit waiting for those people who can be saved to repent and close the gates of hell on them denies HIS perfect loving patience.

IF someone can be saved, HIS perfect patience would have HIM wait for billions of years and more for them to change their mind! If their fate is eternal, it is proof of the eternal nature of their sinfulness, NOT the short term nature of HIS loving patience.

Only those who are unforgivable, those who can't be saved by HIM will not be saved by HIM. If anyone can be saved from the consequences of their choosing sin, they will be so saved, period....or HIS good Name is blasphemed.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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It is only not within your interpretation (what the words mean) of what is Biblical...it is well within another interpretation of the Biblical words.
And where in the Bible does it say that God's call is irresistable?
Instead it says "I called you and you did not answer" (Jer 7:13). The Bible portraits God's will for us humans as to have a relationship with him, and a relationship requires both sides to say "Yes" to that relationship. If we are string puppets who got no choice then our praise of God is worth nothing. We would be God's robots, programmed to "honor" him.
 
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Strong in Him

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When GOD declared all to be very good all included the fallen Satanic demons held in Tartarus....

Where does Genesis say that he considered fallen demons to be VERY good?
I don't know where Tartarus is, nor where the Bible talks of such a place.

so I doubt the word good can refer to all HIS creation.

Are you saying that God who is light with NO darkness in him at all, 1 John 1:5, who is perfect, Matthew 5:48 and who is love, 1 John 4:8 deliberately created evil?

I suspect that it referred to the earth as being good for, ie, perfect for, HIS PURPOSE of the sanctification of the sinful elect,

I don't know where Scripture teaches that idea, nor what you mean by "the sinful elect."
 
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TedT

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3. God is willing to save all, but is somehow unable.
I accept this. The power that stops HIM from doing what HE wants, ie, to save everyone, is the promise that our free will choices would be sacrosanct, untouchable and unchangeable*.... to be less is to not have a free will at all.

The free will decision to put one's faith in the nature of YHWH as evil made the person instantly enslaved to the addictive power of evil, unable to ever bring himself to repentance or to a true faith in the redemption by Christ. And rejecting YHWH as a liar and a false god by their free will separated themselves forever from GOD's promise of salvation unto heaven, ie HIS election promise.

They doomed themselves by refusing to follow the lead of the sinful elect who choose to accept YHWH as their GOD to be safe from hell by coming under HIS promise of election (however tongue in cheek), by faith, that is, an unproven hope, and only then (safe from hell) rebelling against HIM. So strong was the commitment of the Satanic that HE was a liar, they refused to make themselves safe from hell knowing that if He ever proved HE was indeed our GOD that they were doomed to hell but taking that risk because they refused to accept being married to HIM for eternity since they believed, put their faith, their unproven hope, in the idea that HE was the greatest liar and so most evil person in creation.

They literally chose to go to hell rather than be HIS bride...

This choice shackled HIS ability to save them because it was not a power thing, omnipotence had nothing to do with it, but He was bound by HIS creation of us with a free will so as to be able to have a true loving marriage with HIM...neither a Stepford wife nor a rape. And a free will must be able to say 'No!' and to be counted.

*This is why I accept that we do not have a free will here on earth because HE interferes with human choices all the time...therefore it is not a free will HE changes but merely an enslaved will making choices imbued with evil and unable to ever chose righteousness until after a rebirth which restores our free will.
 
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