A potent quote from Saint Sophrony about Psychology

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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"The opposite of a loving heart that receives revelation from God is cold calculation, getting what you can out of people; in religious life, this produces Fakery and Charlatanism of all descriptions."

- Fr. Seraphim Rose

(God's Revelation to the Human Heart, pg 28)

https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Revelation-Human-Heart-Seraphim/dp/0938635034


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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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ArmyMatt

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SalemsConcordance

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yes, psychology is bad when it tries to replace the Tradition of the Church. but I would also note that one of St Sophrony's spiritual children is a Jungian psychologist.
At our catechism/inquiry class today, someone asked about a psychologist perspective from an Orthodox, and I thought of this thread to send the author to my priest. Spiritual son of St Sophrony, Jungian - sounds like a good match.

I can't find anything from this author that leads me to believe he understands the boundaries of his secular profession in being subordinate to Orthodox - everything I find from him is the opposite.

His book that is referenced here is a clinical/technical book on Jungian theory for psychiatry. A review here:
The subsequent chapters are all written by leading academics and/or well respected Jungian analysts. The book is well indexed and follows a logical flow that elucidates Jung's concepts and theories concisely. For example, the Collective Unconscious is followed by the Archetypes, Shadow, Anima/Animus, Psychological Types, The Self, Transference and Counter Transference, Individuation, Active Imagination, Dreams, Alchemy, Religion and finally, The Arts. Each chapter includes an overview of the concept or theory in question and also discusses many of the more prominent subsequent developments and critiques in each area. In other words, each chapter offers a well balanced overview of the subject matter.

Nothing to do with Orthodox. Does he have any work which leads you to believe he holds Orthodox above his secular background?

This paper, he calls Orthodox a "Greek identity."
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ee_families_in_Greece_Systemic_considerations
For many Greeks this phenomenon challenges their national identity, because until recently Greece was a very homogeneous society, inhabited by an overwhelming majority of ethnic Greeks who speak Greek and who belong to the Greek Orthodox Church.

(2) The second feature relates to what Toynbee (1981) referred to as ‘the national continuity of Greeks’. This strong sense of homogeneity of Greek society has been challenged during the past decade by the influx of migrants, mainly from Albania. According to the census of 2001, the total population of Greece was 1096,4020. This number included 797,093 people who were aliens and almost two out of three of them were Albanians. It is feared that this rapid demo-graphic change may influence the feelings of natives towards migrants and that the prejudices against refugees, as observed in other European countries, may also be repeated in Greece.

There has been a recent change in the position of Greece in relation to the movement of refugees. Whereas in the past Greece tended to be used by fleeing people as a ‘transit country’, intending to move on to countries of Western Europe, and to Canada, Australia and USA, it now seems that since 1998 this has changed. Consequently, the number of people seeking asylum and settling in Greece has increased dramatically.

Although there is no evidence, as yet, of any active racism in Greek society, as therapists we are aware of the cultural barriers that arise in communication, especially with reference to the wider social perceptions.

He has some worry that "Greece may become racist."
 
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ArmyMatt

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Nothing to do with Orthodox. Does he have any work which leads you to believe he holds Orthodox above his secular background?

the fact that his current confessor is Elder Zacharias of Essex.
 
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SalemsConcordance

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and I will add, just because it's not clearly reflected in his scientific work, that doesn't mean it's not there or he doesn't have the Orthodox phronema.
Forgive me then for leaning too much on my rationalist egoism, its unfair and wrong to judge a man I do not know.

"-In other words, Geronda, logic and rationalism have taken precedence over God, right?
- Why don't we say that it is pride that has taken precedence? In this sense, logic or rationalism is essentially faulty reasoning; there is nothing sound about it. Pride is impaired reason. Logic full of egoism is logic that harbours demons." - St Paisios, With Pain and Love for Contemporary Man, p. 254
 
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Psychology in 2021 entails affirming cohabitation, abortion, same sex "marriage," LGBT, sex changes, and a host of other immoral tripe not good for the soul. I can't imagine how an Orthodox Christian would navigate being Orthodox while being in that job nowadays. It would be a nightmare. I know in the State of Kalifornistan SSR where I live, there's no way you could practice without being stripped of your license if you're Orthodox. Refusing to give our blessing to sex "reassignment" and refusing to support LGBT activity or BLM absurdities would cost you everything.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Psychology in 2021 entails affirming cohabitation, abortion, same sex "marriage," LGBT, sex changes, and a host of other immoral tripe not good for the soul. I can't imagine how an Orthodox Christian would navigate being Orthodox while being in that job nowadays. It would be a nightmare. I know in the State of Kalifornistan SSR where I live, there's no way you could practice without being stripped of your license if you're Orthodox. Refusing to give our blessing to sex "reassignment" and refusing to support LGBT activity or BLM absurdities would cost you everything.

yeah, depending on where you live it'd be rough.
 
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SingularityOne

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Psychology in 2021 entails affirming cohabitation, abortion, same sex "marriage," LGBT, sex changes, and a host of other immoral tripe not good for the soul. I can't imagine how an Orthodox Christian would navigate being Orthodox while being in that job nowadays. It would be a nightmare. I know in the State of Kalifornistan SSR where I live, there's no way you could practice without being stripped of your license if you're Orthodox. Refusing to give our blessing to sex "reassignment" and refusing to support LGBT activity or BLM absurdities would cost you everything.
Yeah, in TN it’s even getting rough. About to graduate my program and just got out of a diversity class... whew that was exhausting and difficult to be wise as a serpent and innocent as a dove.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Yeah, in TN it’s even getting rough. About to graduate my program and just got out of a diversity class... whew that was exhausting and difficult to be wise as a serpent and innocent as a dove.

it's similar for the chaplaincy
 
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SingularityOne

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it's similar for the chaplaincy
I know I’ve asked this before. But, since it’s been a while and you may have thoguht through it some more... any tips regarding this difficult profession that could help with my being wise as a serpent and innocent as a dove?
 
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ArmyMatt

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I know I’ve asked this before. But, since it’s been a while and you may have thoguht through it some more... any tips regarding this difficult profession that could help with my being wise as a serpent and innocent as a dove?

pray, have an answer when others ask, and don't be pushy.
 
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Dorothea

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Yes, there are problems with modern psychology, but I think if you have a good Christian therapist, it can help in bringing about healing for the mind/mental aspect, working together with spiritual growth and healing through your spiritual father and the church. I don't think it has to be one or the other. They can work together rather nicely. It's been my experience, anyway.
 
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rusmeister

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yes, psychology is bad when it tries to replace the Tradition of the Church. but I would also note that one of St Sophrony's spiritual children is a Jungian psychologist.


I would replace the conjunction “but” that you wrote with an “and”. Jung is by no means a selling point of truth for us; heck, even Kierkegaard is closer, but the modern philosophers pushed in philosophy classes generally teach against the mindset we believe in, one of accepting the mind of the Church. I think that some truths expressed in the secular world can indeed be synthesized with our faith, but synthesis that places the modern claims on an essentially equal footing with the consensus of the fathers, to the point of giving them authority to correct and contradict that consensus, is an enormous danger. What I have said about other things applies here as well. Unless the modern Orthodox says, “Whatever psychologists tells me is subject to correction from Holy Tradition, especially its consensus”, then the modern Orthodox will fall away, following teachings of the world, imagining them to be consistent with the teachings of the Church. Thus, non-Orthodox attitudes enter the Church and become widespread.

Each of us MUST admit that we can be wrong, and that only in referring to Holy Tradition can we be right. I love Chesterton, but he takes a back seat to the fathers. They agreed on a ton, whatever disagreements people can point out. We know what they taught about marriage, sexuality, fasting and prayer, praxis in general. But in one way or other, we like to find exceptions for ourselves, and then worse, make our “exception” OK, even acceptable and normal, instead of admitting that we ought not even try to make that exception. Maybe we are weak and can’t do something. But we ought to admit that weak is bad, and not make it good.

“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult, and left untried.” (Guess who)
 
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ArmyMatt

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I would replace the conjunction “but” that you wrote with an “and”. Jung is by no means a selling point of truth for us; heck, even Kierkegaard is closer, but the modern philosophers pushed in philosophy classes generally teach against the mindset we believe in, one of accepting the mind of the Church. I think that some truths expressed in the secular world can indeed be synthesized with our faith, but synthesis that places the modern claims on an essentially equal footing with the consensus of the fathers, to the point of giving them authority to correct and contradict that consensus, is an enormous danger. What I have said about other things applies here as well. Unless the modern Orthodox says, “Whatever psychologists tells me is subject to correction from Holy Tradition, especially its consensus”, then the modern Orthodox will fall away, following teachings of the world, imagining them to be consistent with the teachings of the Church. Thus, non-Orthodox attitudes enter the Church and become widespread.

Each of us MUST admit that we can be wrong, and that only in referring to Holy Tradition can we be right. I love Chesterton, but he takes a back seat to the fathers. They agreed on a ton, whatever disagreements people can point out. We know what they taught about marriage, sexuality, fasting and prayer, praxis in general. But in one way or other, we like to find exceptions for ourselves, and then worse, make our “exception” OK, even acceptable and normal, instead of admitting that we ought not even try to make that exception. Maybe we are weak and can’t do something. But we ought to admit that weak is bad, and not make it good.

“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult, and left untried.” (Guess who)

that's why I mentioned Dr Renos, as he checks with the Fathers since he is so close to the monastery in Essex.
 
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