Was the 70th Week of Daniel Fulfilled during the First Century?

Douggg said:

It does not say after threescore and two weeks.

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Do you know what "threescore" and two weeks amounts to?

mkgal1 said:

This is a private interpretation.

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That comment is not knowing what private interpretation meant by Peter.

mkgal1 said:

But @Christian Gedge has done the work of clarifying the timeline even more.

It's not a matter of opinions. Shifting the final 7 years is a denial of Jesus as promised Messiah (which, people are free to do, but that's not Christianity).

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It is not just a matter of opinion because it says right in the text of Daniel 8 that the vision and prophecy of the little horn person is time of the end.

Everyone who claims that the 70th week is fulfilled goes right to v24, glossing over v21-23, regarding the vision and prophecy to be fulfilled.

mkgal1 said:

Do you know what "threescore" and two weeks amounts to?

Daniel 9:26
Daniel 9:26 KJV: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.​

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434 years to answer your question.

You are skipping over v25. The 483 years are in that verse.

The messiah arrives 483 years from the time of the command. i.e unto messiah in v25. Jesus arrived as the messiah in John 12:12-15. The 483 years fulfilled, counting stops, and the gap to the time of the end begins in v26.

v26 the messiah cutoff after the 483 years (the 62 weeks + 7 weeks)which the messiah arrived in Jerusalem.

4 days into gap, Jesus was crucified. The destruction of the temple and city are 40 years into the gap.

The gap ends when the prince who shall come begins confirms the law of Moses covenant by making the big speech from the temple mount to begin the 70th week.

mkgal1 said:

Do you know what "threescore" and two weeks amounts to?

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Daniel 9:26
Daniel 9:26 KJV: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Douggg said:

434 years to answer your question.

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No.

A "score" = 20 years
3 scores = 60 years

.....so "threescore and two weeks" = 62 weeks (out of the 70 total weeks).

***edited.....okay, you did get the number of years correct. I wasn't sure if you knew the formula to get there.

Douggg said:

You are skipping over v25. The 483 years are in that verse.

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I'm not skipping v25.

This illustration is representative of v. 25:

mkgal1 said:

I'm not skipping v25.

This illustration is representative of v. 25:

Daniel 9:25
Know and understand this: From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah, the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of distress.

View attachment 298175

See the math?
Decree issued 457 BC
+ 7 weeks (49 years) = 408 BC

408 BC + 3 score 2 weeks (62 weeks or 434 years) = 26/27 AD Messiah’s anointing for His mission (baptism in Jordan River - also known as leading second exodus that's patterned after the original exodus out of Egyptian slavery by Moses).

Jesus's ministry is accepted to have been 3.5 years....Cross was 30 AD

The end of the Mosaic covenant (covenant made in flesh not adoption or Spirit) between Israelites and God was 34 AD

No longer were the Israelites that were formed "in the flesh" "God's people" exclusively any longer.

That is the end that was referred to.

​

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The gregorian calendars which feature the AD and BC dating terms based on the birth of Christ - cannot be used as a basis for creating a timeline. Because there is not enough firm information.

from wikipedia Anno Domini - Wikipedia

The date of birth of Jesus of Nazareth is not stated in the gospels or in any secular text, but most scholars assume a date of birth between 6 BC and 4 BC.[28] The historical evidence is too fragmentary to allow a definitive dating,[29] but the date is estimated through two different approaches—one by analyzing references to known historical events mentioned in the Nativity accounts in the Gospels of Luke and Matthew and the second by working backwards from the estimation of the start of the ministry of Jesus.[30][31]

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It is not necessary to devise a timeline based on calendar years, as your chart has, and CG's charts. What matters is the messiah arrives 483 years from the command given to rebuild the city and walls.

We do have definitive information in John 12:12-15 of the messiah's arrival in Jerusalem. We do not need a calendar date of when the command was given.

The messiah is cutoff after his arrival. The city and temple are destroyed. Then the prince who shall come confirms the covenant for 7 years. Which the 490 years end upon completion of those 7 years.

My chart has no calendar dates on it. It is not necessary, and cannot be constructed based upon calendar dates because the calendar system itself is based upon assumptions.

Douggg said:

It is not necessary to devise a timeline based on calendar years, as your chart has, and CG's charts. What matters is the messiah arrives 483 years from the command given to rebuild the city and walls.

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Sure.....but your understanding of "arrives" is different from the Church understanding.

I'll let @Christian Gedge explain the *how* dating is arrived at - or, for those truly interested - they can go to the web site (https://www.5loaves2fishes.net/the-atonement-clock).

Luke gave us details in order to date certain events.

mkgal1 said:

Sure.....but your understanding of "arrives" is different from the Church understanding.

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The church by tradition celebrates Palms Sunday - Jesus's arrival in Jerusalem hailed as the messiah. Then, Ash Wednesday. Then, Good Friday. Followed by Easter.

My view corresponds to church understanding.

Douggg said:

The gregorian calendars which feature the AD and BC dating terms based on the birth of Christ - cannot be used as a basis for creating a timeline. Because there is not enough firm information.

My chart has no calendar dates on it. It is not necessary, and cannot be constructed based upon calendar dates because the calendar system itself is based upon assumptions.

View attachment 298181

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We can count. 483 prophetic years of 360 days, from the decree of King Artaxerxes Longimanus in 445 BC to the triumphal entry of King Jesus into Jerusalem in 33 AD.

You will be happy to know that I agree with your chart here.
The only change i recommend is to start the gap when Jesus; Messiah was cut off - after the 69th week, the 483 years.

keras said:

You will be happy to know that I agree with your chart here.
The only change i recommend is to start the gap when Jesus; Messiah was cut off - after the 69th week, the 483 years.

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The reason I began the gap when the day (the end of the day) the messiah arrived is because of the never ending arguments coming from BaB2 and jgr that it says "after" 62 weeks in v26. And 4 days to them, i.e. from the messiah's arrival to him being cutoff, still puts the messiah cutoff into the 70th week.

So, since it does say "after" 62 weeks (the 483 years total of 62 weeks plus the 7 weeks) in v26, I placed the gap as beginning when the messiah arrived at the end of that day, with the 483 years fulfilled. Now no-one can say a thing about the messiah cutoff 4 days later as still being in the 70th week.

Please note that I was careful to annotate the verses.

There is another reason for my placing the beginning of the gap at the end of the day the messiah arrived is because Jesus arrived as the messiah coming in the name of the Lord.

When the prince who shall come confirms the covenant for 7 years, he will be doing it as the perceived messiah who comes in his own name. I did not put as the Antichrist term on the chart, nor the law of Moses (Mt. Sinai) covenant on the chart because that creates confusion (and disagreement) for some people who don't make or accept the connection with Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

The other reason my chart is simplified is because DavidPT had commented recently that my chart below on Ezekiel 39 was easy to read and why couldn't my other charts be the same. I explained why, but in the particular case of Daniel 9 I was able to put it all horizontally and still make it readable when placed in a post.

In fact when I made my Daniel 9 chart, I started with the Ezekiel 39 chart as a base and edited and edited it, until I got what I wanted in the form of Daniel 9 - so I would know that the chart would be properly sized for placing in a post.

Douggg said:

You are skipping over v25. The 483 years are in that verse.

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There's a 7x7 year sabbatical block (49 years) that preceded the 62 week sabbatical block (434 years) in v.25. Those 49 years need to be included (that is how the total becomes 483 years).

Douggg said:

My view corresponds to church understanding.

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No. The orthodox Church sees the 70th week completely fulfilled in Jesus.

The Church continues the story of Daniel's prophecy in the New Testament.....with Luke's account.

Gabriel appears again to bring messages.

Douggg said:

So, since it does say "after" 62 weeks (the 483 years total of 62 weeks plus the 7 weeks) in v26, I placed the gap as beginning when the messiah arrived at the end of that day, with the 483 years fulfilled. Now no-one can say a thing about the messiah cutoff 4 day later as still being in the 70th week.

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Except for the fact that we don't get to take liberty to add in our own ideas to Scripture and make our own edits to the story.

There is NO gap. Time doesn't stop. There are reasons for every detail. Instead of altering details in Scripture to fit our expectations.....we should change our expectations to fit Scripture.

Luke informs us that John's birth was foretold by Gabriel "in the days of King Herod of Judea" and also that Jesus began His ministry at age 30 (as was customary for 1st century trained rabbis to be considered "of age" to have authority to teach). That places His ministry to have begun in 26/27 AD.

Douggg said:

When the prince who shall come confirms the covenant for 7 years, he will be doing it as the perceived messiah who comes in his own name.

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Look at what Zechariah (John the baptizer's priestly father) said after Gabriel had visited him and given him the good news message:

"Horn of salvation" goes back to David's psalm:

Douggg said:

In fact when I made my Daniel 9 chart, I started with the Ezekiel 39 chart as a base and edited and edited it, until I got what I wanted in the form of Daniel 9 - so I would know that the chart would be properly sized for placing in a post.

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I will say that your computer graphic design is very well done (I'd love to learn your skills).

However.....I would advise that you spend time learning from experts on 1st century biblical Judaism (like Ray Vander Laan)......and, sincerely, you'll be astonished at all the details that God has brought together in Jesus's ministry on earth in the years you are trying to dismiss or alter.

mkgal1 said:

This is a private interpretation.

The Church has acknowledged the timeline of the 70 weeks to have began according to this illustration that I've shared (sorry it's not a clear graphic - that's not my main priority ).

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But @Christian Gedge has done the work of clarifying the timeline even more.

It's not a matter of opinions. Shifting the final 7 years is a denial of Jesus as promised Messiah (which, people are free to do, but that's not Christianity).

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Declaring it finished in the first century is denying the will and plan of God. Messiah being cut off signifies it would not be complete, but cut off. Cut off does not signify completed.

jgr said:

No such thing.

The book of Daniel was written in Hebrew and Aramaic.



Which three chapters are those? Hint: There's no little horn in Daniel 11, as you were informed earlier.

The Daniel 7 little horn is post-imperial-Roman empire, in the 5th century AD.

Still waiting for the name of your little horn.

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Really? I was not talking about the language the vision was in. I was talking about the goats who represented the Greek empire prior to the Romans. Do you think Antiochus Epiphanies was Latin? So Daniel 11 does not refer to the event in 167BC? Are you saying it is still future? A Greek king will come again?

Timtofly said:

Declaring it finished in the first century is denying the will and plan of God. Messiah being cut off signifies it would not be complete, but cut off. Cut off does not signify completed.

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Arguing against the fulfillment of the prophecy is asserting that Jesus and all His messengers and prophets were either wrong or they lied.

Are you certain that's the position you're wanting to choose?

Douggg said:

The reason I began the gap when the day (the end of the day) the messiah arrived is because of the never ending arguments coming from BaB2 and jgr that it says "after" 62 weeks in v26. And 4 days to them, i.e. from the messiah's arrival to him being cutoff, still puts the messiah cutoff into the 70th week.

So, since it does say "after" 62 weeks (the 483 years total of 62 weeks plus the 7 weeks) in v26, I placed the gap as beginning when the messiah arrived at the end of that day, with the 483 years fulfilled. Now no-one can say a thing about the messiah cutoff 4 days later as still being in the 70th week.

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So, you don't have the Messiah being cut off during any of the 70 weeks, but instead during a gap that occurs after the 69th week ends and before the 70th week begins.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

So, this is saying that 70 weeks would be given during which the six things listed above would be accomplished.

Let's just look at one of those things. If Christ's death did not occur during any of the 70 weeks then how else can reconciliation for iniquity be accomplished? Surely, there is no other way for reconciliation for iniquity to be accomplished apart from the shed blood of Christ, right? So, with that in mind, how can it be possible for His death to not occur during 1 of the 70 weeks?