Christsfreeservant

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1 Corinthians 5:1-5 ESV

“It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

“For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.”

The Situation Today

Covenanteyes.com reports that “1 in 5 youth pastors and 1 in 7 senior pastors use inappropriate content on a regular basis. 43% of senior pastors and youth pastors say they have struggled with inappropriate contentography in the past. 64% of Christian men and 15% of Christian women say they watch inappropriate content at least once a month.” And the statistics are high for teenagers, too.

And this is just what people are admitting to the people who collect these statistics. And this is mostly just about internet inappropriate content use and sex texting. This doesn’t include all the private romantic conversations and flirtations, extra-marital affairs, homosexuality, the use of prostitutes and self-gratification, and sexual abuse of minors, peeping toms, and flashers, etc.

This also doesn’t include the viewing of PG13 or R rated (I assume they are still doing these ratings) movies or TV shows with sexually suggestive or with sexually explicit material in them, or which glorify sex outside of marriage or which romanticize adulterous relationships. And included in this are many video games, too, and probably much more I don’t know about.

This is a picture of much of today’s church. We aren’t talking about just a worldly church, though, but we are talking about the church at large steeped in sexual immorality, including among the church leadership. And then added to that is that most churches are now teaching a cheap grace gospel.

It used to be that they taught a very diluted half-truth gospel which did not demand obedience, repentance, or submission to the Lordship of Christ. It was more like you could pray a prayer and now you “got saved,” and now you were told that your sins were forgiven, and that heaven is your eternal destiny, guaranteed, no matter how you lived your life from then on.

But now they are teaching that it is sinful to obey the Lord, to repent of your sins, and to submit to his Lordship. They call that “works-based salvation” or “lordship salvation,” which they say is wrong. So, they teach that we can believe in Jesus and be guaranteed eternal life with God while we continue living in willful, deliberate, and often premeditated sin against God.

So, is it any wonder that today’s church, for the most part, is in the condition that it is in? This goes way beyond one man sleeping with his father’s wife. This is a total and blatant disregard for the holiness of God and for his moral standards which are taught in the New Testament.

And now some children are viewing inappropriate content, and some are acting out what they see with each other. The statistics are getting higher for children viewing inappropriate content, too, the last that I checked. And then we have so many parents just handing children internet devices unsupervised, often with no guards on them, or with guards that could be gotten around. Children are very smart. Don’t think they can’t find ways around some of these guards.

And children are reading books and they are watching videos, or cartoons, or they are playing video games containing extreme violence, some sexually suggestive material, some bad language, and some (or much) occult and Satanic material, which includes witchcraft and demonic material. And some (or many) parents are using these as babysitters for their children to keep them entertained. And this is heartbreaking.

I do not have statistics for everything I shared here, but I have read much and have observed much over the years which has led me to believe that scenarios such as these are a serious threat to the minds, hearts and spiritual lives of children, teens, and adults, especially to those professing faith in Jesus Christ, and within the gatherings of the church.

Shouldn’t You Mourn?

The church overall, though not including every congregation, is on a massive spiritual and moral nosedive. And yet they go on as though everything is fine and good, and they work hard at providing good music, entertainment, activities (not so much since the big C), social events, and preaching that is often for entertainment purposes, too.

And since they are mostly teaching this cheap grace gospel, and since so much of the leadership is also steeped in sexual immorality, not much is being done at all to stop this madness and to bring people to true repentance and obedient faith in Jesus Christ.

Some congregations do have “Addiction Recovery” groups, but most or much of them appear to be just babysitters for addicts, often allowing them to continue in their addictions, confessing the same sins over again, while they avoid confronting anyone with their sins or giving them godly counsel, because they don’t want to offend anyone.

Instead of teaching them that Jesus died on that cross to free them from their addiction to sin, they convince them that they will always be recovering addicts, always needing support groups to help them stay “sober.” Still, some of these groups are helping people, but I see much that is not helping at all, because they are not dealing with the sins of these people biblically.

But if a large number of our pastors and our elders and bible teachers in the church are “struggling” with (regularly giving in to) sexual sin, who is going to lead the charge for removing those within the church who are practicing sexual immorality and who will not repent?

And please know that repentance is not the same as sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, and so on and so forth, while continuing to commit the same habitual and deliberate and premediated sins over again. And repentance is not the same as “a recovering addict” who can be recovering for many years to come, but who will never be free.

So much of today’s church has bought into this lie that says we are not to confront people in their sins, for that might offend them, or that we need to be tolerant of blatant, willful, deliberate, and habitual sin, which isn’t just against God, but is against spouses and children and neighbors and fellow Christians. Do they not care that spouses and children are being abused?

Do you see the gravity of the situation here? While the church is so concerned about not stepping on toes and about keeping people coming back to their gatherings, spouses and children are being neglected and abused and sinned against, and husbands or wives are living in adultery, and marriages are falling apart and families are being destroyed, too.

1 Corinthians 5:6-8 ESV

“Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.”

The church overall, at least here in America, needs to be cleansed of all this filth, and of all the lies, and the false gospels, and so on. For, when sin such as this is allowed to continue, it impacts the whole congregation. And it spreads much like gangrene.

But I don’t foresee this cleansing happening at the hands of church leadership. I believe God is going to have to do this cleansing. And it will be painful. And I have a sense that some of that has already begun. For the Lord is jealous for his people and he wants them to repent and to return to him as their ONLY LORD.

More Than Words

Nuno Bettencourt / Gary F. Cherone

Saying I love you
Is not the words I want to hear from you
It's not that I want you
Not to say, but if you only knew
How easy it would be to show me how you feel…

Hold me close don't ever let me go
More than words is all you have to do to make it real
Then you wouldn't have to say that you love me
Cos I'd already know
 

GDL

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This is a picture of much of today’s church.

most churches are now teaching a cheap grace gospel.

This is a total and blatant disregard for the holiness of God and for his moral standards which are taught in the New Testament.

not much is being done at all to stop this madness

they are not dealing with the sins of these people biblically.

Do you see the gravity of the situation here?

The church overall, at least here in America, needs to be cleansed of all this filth, and of all the lies, and the false gospels,

who is going to lead the charge for removing those within the church who are practicing sexual immorality and who will not repent?

But I don’t foresee this cleansing happening at the hands of church leadership. I believe God is going to have to do this cleansing. And it will be painful. And I have a sense that some of that has already begun.

In full agreement and have been for quite some time. The "agree" or "like" buttons are insufficient to tell you this. We have not yet seen the real pain that can be meted out in discipline, let alone judgment. Thank you, Sue, for speaking loudly, clearly and for not mincing words. I wonder how many will read or care...
 
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A_Thinker

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1 Corinthians 5:1-5 ESV

“It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

“For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.”
This writing by Paul was reserved for commenting upon the circumstance of a man who sleeping with his father's wife.

Linking that statement to commentary upon a rather infrequent giving way to lust ... is not quite appropriate, I think.
 
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GDL

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Linking that statement to commentary upon a rather infrequent giving way to lust ... is not quite appropriate, I think.

The author began with statistics and talk of a false gospel that gives license to sin. "Rather infrequent" is an assumption and seems to imply a little, or infrequent sin is OK.

The point being, which I think this article correctly calls out, the reason we are in the condition we're in.

Why give any pass, or imply any pass for sin? All of it needs to be dealt with. A "little/small quantity of (even "infrequent") leaven leavens/ferments the whole."

1 Corinthians 5:1 speaks of there being "fornication" in the congregation, and then Paul identifies this case to deal with. Do you think he would simply allow less extreme fornication? How about infrequent fornication?

As the author says, who's going to lead the charge?
 
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tturt

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Watched a cartoon and out of the blue the character said do you believe that or some Bible story? At that point told the kids to turn off that episode and never watch him again. Recently watched another stick figure cartoon with no speaking. Showed graphic scenes and later for a few seconds a figure building a boat in the shape of a ark, lots of rain, and the boat sinking.
 
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A_Thinker

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The author began with statistics and talk of a false gospel that gives license to sin. "Rather infrequent" is an assumption and seems to imply a little, or infrequent sin is OK.

The point being, which I think this article correctly calls out, the reason we are in the condition we're in.

Why give any pass, or imply any pass for sin? All of it needs to be dealt with. A "little/small quantity of (even "infrequent") leaven leavens/ferments the whole."

1 Corinthians 5:1 speaks of there being "fornication" in the congregation, and then Paul identifies this case to deal with. Do you think he would simply allow less extreme fornication? How about infrequent fornication?

As the author says, who's going to lead the charge?
I don't think that the church should be primarily concerned with a "witch-hunt", wherein every possible sin is ferreted out.

Given that all christians continue to present some instances of sin, ... to try to ferret it all out, would result in the church being emptied out.

Note that sin includes gossip, meddlesomeness, discord, jealously, selfishness, dissensions, factions, envy, neglecting to love, etc.

We all have sin issues which we can work on, ... I don't think that anything is gained by asking all within the church to raise their hand when, or if, they sin.

The sin Paul refers to in his letter was obvious and known to the church. It was for this reason it had to be addressed. It reflected badly upon the church.

I think that we can take our lead from Jesus ... with His disciples. Jesus knew that various members of His group were dealing with certain sins (certainly Judas, Peter, as well as others), but He did not make it a priority to purge them from His group of followers.

Jesus, early on, instructed his followers to concentrate on their own sin (i.e. get the logs out of your own eye), ... before moving on to to point out the sins of others.
 
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GDL

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I don't think that the church should be primarily concerned with a "witch-hunt", wherein every possible sin is ferreted out.

Given that all christians continue to present some instances of sin, ... to try to ferret it all out, would result in the church being emptied out.

Note that sin includes gossip, meddlesomeness, discord, jealously, selfishness, dissensions, factions, envy, neglecting to love, etc.

We all have sin issues which we can work on, ... I don't think that anything is gained by asking all within the church to raise their hand when, or if, they sin.

The sin Paul refers to in his letter was obvious and known to the church. It was for this reason it had to be addressed. It reflected badly upon the church.

I think that we can take our lead from Jesus ... with His disciples. Jesus knew that various members of His group were dealing with certain sins (certainly Judas, Peter, as well as others), but He did not make it a priority to purge them from His group of followers.

Jesus, early on, instructed his followers to concentrate on their own sin (i.e. get the logs out of your own eye), ... before moving on to to point out the sins of others.

Is the charge to ferret out unknown sin ever given in the New Testament ???

I'll state and ask again:

1 Corinthians 5:1 speaks of there being "fornication" in the congregation, and then Paul identifies this case to deal with. Do you think he would simply allow less extreme fornication? How about infrequent fornication?

Let's throw into the mix this command from the same Apostle:

KJV 1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication....

"witch-hunt" is more of your "infrequent" concept. Sin is deadly. A small amount ferments. That's the teaching. Of course leadership and parenting needs to use wisdom, as our Father does who disciplines us. For us to use wisdom, we start with Truth, not excuses for failure, and we apply pressure wisely.

This author also writes frequently about the fact that Christ died, so we could live to righteousness. There is no sin in righteousness. Making any excuses for sin affronts the cross, our Lord, our God and Father. You're setting the bar too low for what Grace can accomplish in those who take it seriously.
 
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A_Thinker

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KJV 1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication....
This is a command to the individual believer, ... similar to "Love you neighbor as yourself ... ".

This is not a command to inspect the lives of OTHER believers.

As I had mentioned previously, ... when sin becomes public to the body, ... it is contingent upon the body to deal with it. Individual sin ... is dealt with by the individual ... and God.

The main commission to the church ... is NOT to uncover sin, ... but to offer God's grace. Jesus' lead testifies to this ...

Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged.

2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye?

5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
 
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SkyWriting

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SkyWriting

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1 Corinthians 5:1-5 ESV

“It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

“For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.”

Paul wasn't writing to formal churches. He was writing to groups of people or "churches" that had not even been born yet. Plus he appealed to churches to follow local laws which have since changed. God has always instructed believers to follow local laws in full reverence. So discrimination based on legal guidelines honors God. Also, treating people as you would have others treat you is paramount in sculpture. Rule #1.
 
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SkyWriting

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. So, they teach that we can believe in Jesus and be guaranteed eternal life with God while we continue living in willful, deliberate, and often premeditated sin against God.

They don't, but you are free to provide citations and show my error.
 
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GDL

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First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

IOW, first learn to judge yourself, then you'll be able to assist your brother.

Your problem in part is that you see all this in a negative light, but love neighbor is in the context of properly rebuking neighbor and not bearing a grudge or taking vengeance yourself. Rebuking neighbor in this context is obviously because the neighbor is out of line with God and community. The rebuke is meant to bring them back into line with God and community. Thus it is positive in intent and commanded. And, once again, there is no allowance for sin, which is lawlessness, which is unrighteousness, which is disobedience to God, which if we follow your line of reasoning is OK, if it is infrequent. If we do what the Scripture actually commands, you will accuse of a "witch-hunt."

As for paying attention to one another: Hebrews 10:25-26 commands to observe carefully/think about carefully/consider closely/be concerned about one another for the purpose of provoking/irritating/stirring up [one another] to love and good works - assembling together & exhorting/encouraging/entreating [one another] so we do not continue in willful sin. What you propose is exactly the opposite.

This love and good works is part of becoming mature in Christ and paying close attention to one another to assist each other in becoming the same.
As for this maturity in Christ, it is explained in Hebrews 5 as becoming learned/skilled in the Word of Righteousness, and well exercised in judging both good and bad. It is further explained in Galatians 6 as [essentially] being able to identify any violation and assist those who are overtaken in some violation. This fulfills the Law of Christ. We thereby do in a small way what He did for us to destroy sin.

You are encouraging exactly the opposite of all this. Do not judge turns into a childish mantra for an infantile church. Love becomes the opposite of loving God (which is to obey God, which is the opposite of sin), and loving neighbor (which is to assist them to love/obey God, which is to help them out of sin), and loving one another as Christ loved us (which was to save us from sin and thus to enable us to love God and neighbor and one another).

You are also supporting an incomplete and therefore incorrect concept of Grace. Yes, we are initially & ultimately saved by Grace through faith, but this grace also trains/disciplines us to live self-controlled, righteous, godly lives while rejecting ungodliness and earthly lusts (Titus 2:12). You are promoting half, at best, the complete concept of grace, and thus exactly what this article discusses.

Commands to the individual are ultimately commands to the Body, which works together for the good of the Body.

All of this from Scripture is exactly the opposite of what you are promoting. Your view is immature at best and this is part of what this article is revealing as a problem.
 
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A_Thinker

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As for paying attention to one another: Hebrews 10:25-26 commands to observe carefully/think about carefully/consider closely/be concerned about one another for the purpose of provoking/irritating/stirring up [one another] to love and good works - assembling together & exhorting/encouraging/entreating [one another] so we do not continue in willful sin. What you propose is exactly the opposite.
Hebrews 10:25 ... not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting [one another]; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh.

Exhorting means "encouraging" ...
Do not judge turns into a childish mantra for an infantile church.
Those are Jesus' exact words ...
You are also supporting an incomplete and therefore incorrect concept of Grace.
Quite an accusation ...
Yes, we are initially & ultimately saved by Grace through faith, but this grace also trains/disciplines us to live self-controlled, righteous, godly lives while rejecting ungodliness and earthly lusts (Titus 2:12).
Per Paul and John, ... GRACE saves ... and frees us to live the lives that God desires from us (i.e. WORKS). Ephesians 2:8-10

Otherwise, WORKS plays no role in our salvation.
Commands to the individual are ultimately commands to the Body, which works together for the good of the Body.
This is, at best, debatable ... and, at worst, flat wrong ...

John 21

20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”
Your view is immature at best and this is part of what this article is revealing as a problem.
You may wish to rethink this ...
 
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GDL

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Paul wasn't writing to formal churches. He was writing to groups of people or "churches" that had not even been born yet. Plus he appealed to churches to follow local laws which have since changed. God has always instructed believers to follow local laws in full reverence. So discrimination based on legal guidelines honors God. Also, treating people as you would have others treat you is paramount in sculpture. Rule #1.

It's not fun to have to point out so much error in such a few statements:

1. Paul was writing to local congregations. What you mean by "formal churches," who knows. But a local congregation in some locale could most certainly be considered a formal church, with leadership, Apostolic traditions, Christ as its Head, etc.

2. Please show one statement from Paul that shows his intent was to write to those not born yet and not to existing congregations or believers.

3. You completely misrepresent what Paul or any writer of Scripture, let alone God, instructs and commands re: following local laws. We are in fact instructed to stand against law that conflicts with God's Law.

4. Discrimination is a word that ultimately has to do with judging (discerning, differentiating, distinguishing). We all discriminate, because we all constantly differentiate. Proper discrimination honors God. Ungodly discrimination dishonors God.

5. Only as long as you treat others according to Scripture (the Law and the Prophets) and would have them treat you according to the same Scripture, is this saying applicable. This is not even rule #1 or #2, which would be to love God and neighbor. It's essentially #2, which if not according to #1 is not a true #2.
 
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SkyWriting

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It's not fun to have to point out so much error in such a few statements:

1. Paul was writing to local congregations. What you mean by "formal churches," who knows. But a local congregation in some locale could most certainly be considered a formal church, with leadership, Apostolic traditions, Christ as its Head, etc.
Exactly. None of those formalized structures existed.
 
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SkyWriting

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2. Please show one statement from Paul that shows his intent was to write to those not born yet and not to existing congregations or believers.

Well today the law allows for women to be leaders, at the time, it didn't.
So Paul was adhering to local law and local traditions. The length of hair, the type of clothing, who was allowed to pass through the doors of the "church" usually held in people homes, and all the discriminations that are now illegal, sex, age, nationality, religion, men with beards, the length of mens hair, the value of their jewelry, when women can speak, who people associate with, who they live with, if the women were menstruating they should be confined to home, etc. etc.
All the remnant's of the obsolete first promise of justification through God's written laws. Goat sacrifice....all that.
 
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