The Two Times when Jesus was confronted with "honor Mary Mother of Jesus" statements

prodromos said:

Perfectly obedient, knowing what needed to be done before you even ask. It must have been a challenge

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He shook off mom and Joseph at Jerusalem as they went on their merry way (attentive parents! used to him being so obedient I suppose) then THREE days later they found him hanging out and asking questions in the temple. Very early on he seemed to be getting use to not having a pillow with him apparently

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thecolorsblend said:

The Incarnation is a vast mystery, it's true. Tricky subject. Partly because not necessarily everyone is equipped to follow it.

Still, I will try to be as brief as possible. As you and I both (probably) agree, the Word was made flesh. Thing is tho, it's only when the Word was made flesh that God could be said to have been the Father. When people refer to Our Lord as the Son of God, whether they realize it or not, they're specifying the Incarnation and no earlier time. This is not a controversial statement. Protestant theologians readily admit to this much. Indeed, it could be no other way. Because logically, Our Lord was conceived on a specific date, born on a specific date, etc. Hebrews 5:5 alludes to that much. "Today, I have begotten you."

When traditional Christians refer to Our Lady as the Mother of God, they're essentially saying something similar and with the same time restriction. She is the mother specifically of His earthly incarnation. As others have said, the term "Mother of God" (A) is extremely ancient and (B) was meant as a refutation of heresies which denied Our Lord's human and Divine natures. For whatever reason, most significant heresies will eventually deny the orthodox understanding of the Incarnation. Among other things, the technical term Mother of God/God-bearer/Theotokos was intended as a denial of those heresies.

So much for my efforts at brevity.

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Thecolorsblend you do not believe that Hebrews 5:5 has anything to do with Jesus being begotten on earth do you?

I unclicked agreeing with any of your post since you apparently caught your error

dupe

2BeholdHisGlory said:

Maybe we are discovering that in Luke 11:27 Jesus is revealing to us the first Catholics (and/or Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox) in a woman who may symbolically represent those who honour and bless the creature above their Creator?

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Or, more likely, we are discovering that some folks can superimpose their favorite doctrines over pretty much anything. The uber-protestant "nothing special about Mary" schtick is a prime example.

Luke 1
26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

So y'all may not think Mary is all that, but it looks like God sets a lot more store by her than you do.
On top of all that, Mary is, alone of all humanity, the God Bearer (I know y'all can't stand hearing her called the mother of God), who carried God Incarnate within. Aw heck, that ain't no big deal, right? We both know better.

GDL said:

Oh come on now...

Isn't "full of grace" a Latin addition to what the Greek Text actually says. Or does tradition take priority?

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Anything folks had rarther wasn't in Scripture is a "Latin addition", or says something else in ther Greek. That's from Brother Buford's Infallible Guide to Expedient Exegesis.

Valletta said:

I think you have some misunderstanding. We know according to the Bible that all generations are to call Mary blessed. Why is she blessed, or most blessed? What is Jesus saying?

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Hey, don't call her the Blessed Virgin in these parts. A lot of these folks want the Magnificat removed from their Bibles. <Laugh>

Jipsah said:

Or, more likely, we are discovering that some folks can superimpose their favorite doctrines over pretty much anything.

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Both old and new discoveries are interesting

The Liturgist said:

The Gospels of Matthew, Luke and John all depict Mary as the mother of God. We can positively assert thar Jesus Christ is God Incarnate based on John chapter 1; he is the second person of the Trinity, the uncreated Word, begotten of the Father before all ages, who for our salvation became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, making her the Mother of the Incarnate God.

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QFT

myst33 said:

They depict Jesus as God, but never Mary as the mother of God.

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Syllogism, then: Jesus is God. Mary is Jesus' mother. Ergo, Mary is the Mother of God. Unless you want to go full Nestorian, which is heretical.

They are concerned with Mary mainly to depict the birth of Jesus. Then they begin to ignore her for the rest of the Bible so much (except of some small details in the Jesus's story) that it must be very strange to you, with your view of her being so theologically important and high being.

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God's opinion of her (as cited in previous posts in this thread) not withstanding.

myst33 said:

This is exactly the route of logic the biblical writers never went into. Why?

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Dunno. Do you see a hole in that logic anywhere?

2BeholdHisGlory said:

The Word became flesh, a man (just as Mary is flesh and a woman) who brought forth a man and not God, he took upon himself the seed of Abraham not of the nature of Angels (who like God do not die) in order to die.

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Sorry, that's not the view of Nicene Christianity. Mary did not bring forth "a man", she brought forth the Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made man...

You can't separate our Lord into "a man" and God. He is fully God and fully Man.

And that, I think, is where most Prots go foul. They don't really believe in the Incarnation, and that Jesus isn't really God Himself, but rather a man through Whom God chose to work.

Jipsah said:

Sorry, that's not the view of Nicene Christianity. Mary did not bring forth "a man", she brought forth the Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made man...

You can't separate our Lord into "a man" and God. He is fully God and fully Man.

And that, I think, is where most Prots go foul. They don't really believe in the Incarnation, and that Jesus isn't really God Himself, but rather a man through Whom God chose to work.

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I dont get what the problem with using the word made as it relates to Jesus being made flesh

God sent forth his Son, MADE of a woman, MADE under the law (Gal 4:4)

The Word was MADE flesh (John 1:14)

God MADE Jesus Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36)

I dont think this saying is separating the man Jesus from God

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Afterall we know,

2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation

As Jesus said, the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

None of those deny his divinity just as the oneness he had with the Father he prayed for them to have as the Father and him had.

and being one with the Father is something he prayed we also would be when he said, "that they may be one, even as we are one

Both words made and begotten are shown used for Christ. For example, he shown as begotten from the dead (as it relates specifically to his being glorified by God to be made a high priest)

Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

The first begotten of the dead

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

The apostles said that God had to fulfill the second psalm (Psalm 2:7) which is a witness of Jesus declaring the decree that The LORD (His Father) raised him up again and begotten him that day.

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me,
Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Both made and begotten are shown

Heres some additional things which are Portions of what I have previously posted on the Mariology forum

I don't know how to set this one up, but I do agree with Elizabeths words, Mother of my Lord (and not God) because the Word became flesh and God made Jesus Lord and Christ.

So I stand with Elizabeth on this one.

For example we would agree that the Word, the Father and the Holy Ghost are one. The Word became flesh/made a man/seed of Abraham and made Christ and Lord (who only hath immortality) and our one mediator between God and man (the man Jesus Christ).

That aside.

I think we would agree that the"my Lord" (in red) is Jesus Christ after his ascension

Shows this in the Psalm

Psalm 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Yeshua) Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Jesus points out what David professes concerning him as "my Lord" comes by the Holy Ghost here

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost,
The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Elizabeth also acknowledges Mary as the mother of my Lord in this same way

Luke 1:43 And whence is this to me,
that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

As Jesus was made of a woman made under the law, as he is the Word made flesh, taking upon him the seed of Abraham.

The acknowledgement we have is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And it was God that made Jesus Lord and Christ

The apostles show The LORD (Jehovah) made Jesus Lord and Christ

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God hath made that same Jesus,
whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Now, I certainly do not want to diminish the virgin birth when it comes to the only begotten of the Father. I just don't see it as appropriate to say mother of my God over Mary the mother of my Lord, I think Elizabeth got it more appropriately as it relates to this.

God made Jesus both Lord and Christ, the Son of God

And yes I know the Son is the Word made flesh (Who WAS with God) Who come out from God, and Who WAS God was also made flesh. Who took not upon himself the nature of angels but the seed of Abraham. We know His divinity preceeded Mary (so she did not give birth by way of imparting any of His divinity to him) obviously. The Word having been made flesh emptied himself (was made of a woman made under the law) became a man (in order to die) and so I agree more with Elizabeth who adresses Mary as the mother of my Lord not mother of my God.

This simplifies things

1 Cr 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

And I don't even want to diminish "God with us". We know the Word who WAS God (was made flesh) emptied himself and did his works by the Father (as he was never alone). As we know God was with Christ (Acts 10:38) as God was in Christ (2 Cr 5:19) and it was God that made him to be Lord and Christ 9for us) and was with us in Him.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father,
and the Father in me?

Jesus (my Lord) also said His Father (my God) was in him which did the works.

The Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

2 Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,

John 20:17 Jesus now, after he had risen said... go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus who was made Lord and Christ said, I (your Lord) ascend unto MY God and YOUR God (who is the God who made him Lord and Christ). Its better left simple.

I would stick with Elizabeth's adress of Mary, as the mother of my Lord (Who is the Christ, the Son of God) and much more ofcourse but she's not mother of all he is before he come into this world by her. Obviously because he was before her, and created her (and so He is probably more her mother then she is his) but regardless she is mother of my Lord

Although, I dont really like how I put that out there because I would have chosen a different arrangement, or left out a thing or two but I figured someone would jump on it (like some do accusing you of a pseudo denial of his divinity) whenever preferring Elizabeths words others so I over stuffed a little and get a ittle sloppy.

@2BeholdHisGlory There was a lot of information and text in your post, so can you clarify this for me? Do you believe that Jesus, was God, is God and forevermore will be God?

All4Christ said:

@2BeholdHisGlory There was a lot of information and text in your post, so can you clarify this for me? Do you believe that Jesus, was God, is God and forevermore will be God?

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I included it, the Word was God that was with God who God made Lord and Christ

Which of the verses posted is problematic for you?

2BeholdHisGlory said:

Which of the verses posted is problematic for you?

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No verse in scripture is problematic for me.

It sounded like you were using them to say that Jesus was not “still” God - that the Word was God who made Jesus. (You aren’t quoting scripture directly there, so I’m trying to get some clarification).

Of course, it is important to have all scripture in mind, such as John 20:27-28. Jesus is my Lord and my God, as Thomas said.

So to ask again, can you answer yes or no to the following (not just posting a scripture): Do you believe Jesus was fully God, is fully God and always will be fully God?

All4Christ said:

No verse in scripture is problematic for me.

It sounded like you were using them to say that Jesus was not “still” God.

Of course, it is important to have all scripture in mind, such as John 20:27-28. Jesus is my Lord and my God, as Thomas said.

So to ask again, can you answer yes or no to the following (not just posting a scripture): Do you believe Jesus was fully God, is fully God and always will be fully God?

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You have to post the scripture behind the one you posted

John 20:21 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

So yes I believe Jesus is the Christ the Son of God and the following

Jesus (the Son of God) said, I ascend unto my God and your God

God speaking to Jesus

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son ((( he/God ))) saith

Psalm 45:6 Thy throne, O God, (speaking to Jesus) is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Shows plainly God speaking to God is in the Psalm

Psalm 45:7 ... therefore God, thy God, hath anointed ((( thee ))) with the oil of gladness
above (thy fellows)

You should really show the scriptures and make inquisition that way because not everyone sees what even Thoma said as the same thing, afterall the Father was in him (as he was telling them earlier).