Adventist: amalgamation in CERTAIN races of men.

tall73 · Apr 22, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I might leave it here guys. Thanks for the discussion Tall. We might have to agree to disagree as we seem to be going about in circles again. I do not know why you cannot see what I have shared with you as it is plain as daylight to me and completely agrees with the quote of your OP. Perhaps I will pray for you.

Yes, I think now we agree, it is going in circles. We clarified what we could.

God bless

BobRyan · Apr 25, 2021

tall73 said:
The point is there is no race in Ellen White's time that was not full of unbelievers, not just one.

Nope... that is not the point.

The point in the context of Genesis 6 example - which resulted in the destruction of the world had to do with Christ's statement "ye are the light of the world" - the mixed marriages between the race of Seth and the race of Cain (as Matthew Henry also refers to it) resulted in the light going out - and leaving the world in darkness because the faith of the race of Seth was dying out - down to 8 by the time the Ark is built.

The same problem where the light goes out for a given race because they lose all remaining light that they once had - and then show various "consequences" that result form paying no attention to the Word of God which promotes life. And they got started down that road with mixed marriages between believers and unbelievers - as even Matthew Henry points out. One would not need all-Ellen-White-all-the-time to see that point.

tall73 said:
And your notion of pure and defaced races seems a very strange theology

Your notion that "rebellion has no consequences" is an odd one - given the actual Bible and history itself and that Adventists have one of the 5 "Blue Zones"

I think this is where "we differ". So that is fine. At least we know what the differences are on this topic.

tall73 · Apr 25, 2021

BobRyan said:
Nope... that is not the point.

The point in the context of Genesis 6 example - which resulted in the destruction of the world had to do with Christ's statement "ye are the light of the world" - the mixed marriages between the race of Seth and the race of Cain (as Matthew Henry also refers to it) resulted in the light going out - and leaving the world in darkness because the faith of the race of Seth was dying out - down to 8 by the time the Ark is built.

The same problem where the light goes out for a given race because they lose all remaining light that they once had - and then show various "consequences" that result form paying no attention to the Word of God which promotes life. And they got started down that road with mixed marriages between believers and unbelievers - as even Matthew Henry points out. One would not need all-Ellen-White-all-the-time to see that point.

Your notion that "rebellion has no consequences" is an odd one - given the actual Bible and history itself and that Adventists have one of the 5 "Blue Zones"

I think this is where "we differ". So that is fine. At least we know what the differences are on this topic.

Rebellion has consequences but we see it in all races, because all have unbelievers. If amalgamation is intermarriage that includes all races not just certain. And it would be seen in all races.

tall73 · Apr 25, 2021

BobRyan said:
and that Adventists have one of the 5 "Blue Zones"

You now switched from unbelievers to diet. But two of the blue zones had folks who drank lots of red wine. And you were arguing against that in the other thread.

bbbbbbb · Apr 25, 2021

tall73 said:
Rebellion has consequences but we see it in all races, because all have unbelievers. If amalgamation is intermarriage that includes all races not just certain. And it would be seen in all races.

The difficulty today lies in attempting to define "race". When I was a wee lad life was really very simple. There were Negroes, Caucasians, and eastern Asians, who were variously assigned to being descendants of the three sons of Noah, as if one son was a Negro, another was Caucasian, and another was eastern Asian. Adolf Hitler had helped matters to a very large extent by popularizing this notion, but adding a fourth prohibited race - Jews.

As time went on we discovered yet another race variously known as Hispanics or Latinos. Then there were those pesky Aborigines, not to mention Indians (both in India itself and those otherwise called Native Americans). Unfortunately, geneticists have been of no help in the matter, asserting that human DNA has far more similarities than differences when it comes to defining "race".

tall73 · Apr 25, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
The difficulty today lies in attempting to define "race". When I was a wee lad life was really very simple. There were Negroes, Caucasians, and eastern Asians, who were variously assigned to being descendants of the three sons of Noah, as if one son was a Negro, another was Caucasian, and another was eastern Asian. Adolf Hitler had helped matters to a very large extent by popularizing this notion, but adding a fourth prohibited race - Jews.

As time went on we discovered yet another race variously known as Hispanics or Latinos. Then there were those pesky Aborigines, not to mention Indians (both in India itself and those otherwise called Native Americans). Unfortunately, geneticists have been of no help in the matter, asserting that human DNA has far more similarities than differences when it comes to defining "race".

The only reason this conversation involves races in the first place is that Ellen White spoke of it.

God looks at the heart, not the outward appearance.

bbbbbbb · Apr 25, 2021

tall73 said:
The only reason this conversation involves races in the first place is that Ellen White spoke of it.

God looks at the heart, not the outward appearance.

Exactly. As long as the SDA continues its adherence to Mrs. White and her teachings, issues like these will continue to embarrass them.

ChetSinger · Apr 25, 2021

I don't even see the concept of "race" in the scriptures. In the OT people are classified by their "nation" which was a geographic area and language named after the first clan leader to successfully settle it (Canaan, Egypt, etc.). They're listed in the Table of Nations in Genesis 10.

We still use that same concept: there is a French nation and a German nation, each identified by a geographic boundary and a language. But there isn't a French race or a German race.

Our society's concept of "race" is based on nothing but a handful of genetic traits that are easily visible to the naked eye such as the amount of melanin in the skin or the amount of fat over the eye. But I've read that under our skins the genetic differences within a "race" are about 15x more numerous than the genetic differences between the "races".

So I think there's only one "race", the human race. And I think that's how the scriptures see us, too.

tall73 · Apr 25, 2021

ChetSinger said:
I don't even see the concept of "race" in the scriptures. In the OT people are classified by their "nation" which was a geographic area and language named after the first clan leader to successfully settle it (Canaan, Egypt, etc.). They're listed in the Table of Nations in Genesis 10.

We still use that same concept: there is a French nation and a German nation, each identified by a geographic boundary and a language. But there isn't a French race or a German race.

Our society's concept of "race" is based on nothing but a handful of genetic traits that are easily visible to the naked eye such as the amount of melanin in the skin or the amount of fat over the eye. But I've read that under our skins the genetic differences within a "race" are about 15x more numerous than the genetic differences between the "races".

So I think there's only one "race", the human race. And I think that's how the scriptures see us, too.

To sum all that up:

Acts 17:26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us

ChetSinger · Apr 25, 2021

tall73 said:
To sum all that up:

Acts 17:26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us

Yeah, exactly!

bbbbbbb · Apr 25, 2021

If one is to examine the OT in relation to races, there are two, and only two, entities - God's people (Jews) and the goyim (nations or Gentiles). The concept of three races based on the three sons of Noah came about to support the notion of Darwinian evolution proving that the "Negroid" race was inferior to the other two and, therefore, was rightfully to be used in slavery and subjugation to the "superior" race(s).

tall73 · Apr 27, 2021

One also wonders why Adventists are not vehemently protesting beefalo farms, etc. in light of the amalgamation among animals.

bbbbbbb · Apr 27, 2021

tall73 said:
One also wonders why Adventists are not vehemently protesting beefalo farms, etc. in light of the amalgamation among animals.

Then there is also the matter of mixed fibers in clothing. Polyester blends are extremely durable, maintainable, and inexpensive. They are used in every form of textile from clothing to linens. It would not surprise me at all if they use them.

tall73 · Jun 9, 2023

Perhaps Adventists could answer a question that would clarify the issue. Are beefalo farmers committing a base crime, such as brought on the flood?

Beefalo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

BobRyan · Jun 9, 2023

tall73 said:
Perhaps Adventists could answer a question that would clarify the issue. Are beefalo farmers committing a base crime, such as brought on the flood?

Beefalo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Are they different "kinds"?? Simply another example of speciation within a kind?

Suppose someone with a first or second grade education did not realize that there were likely -- no poodles on the ark, would that be sufficient grounds for mocking the Holy Spirit and inspiration?

What are your thoughts?

BobRyan · Jun 9, 2023

BobRyan said:
Nope... that is not the point.

The point in the context of Genesis 6 example - which resulted in the destruction of the world had to do with Christ's statement "ye are the light of the world" - the mixed marriages between the race of Seth and the race of Cain (as Matthew Henry also refers to it) resulted in the light going out - and leaving the world in darkness because the faith of the race of Seth was dying out - down to 8 by the time the Ark is built.

The same problem where the light goes out for a given race because they lose all remaining light that they once had - and then show various "consequences" that result form paying no attention to the Word of God which promotes life. And they got started down that road with mixed marriages between believers and unbelievers - as even Matthew Henry points out. One would not need all-Ellen-White-all-the-time to see that point.

Your notion that "rebellion has no consequences" is an odd one - given the actual Bible and history itself and that Adventists have one of the 5 "Blue Zones"

I think this is where "we differ". So that is fine. At least we know what the differences are on this topic.

"As a reminder"

tall73 · Jun 9, 2023

BobRyan said:
"As a reminder"

As a reminder you won't explain how Ellen White saw results in "certain" races of men.

And you won't posit those races she didn't see the results in, since it was only "certain."

tall73 · Jun 9, 2023

BobRyan said:
Are they different "kinds"??

Feel free to posit your answer.

I am waiting to hear the explanation of the amalgamation among species of animals, and we can start with beefalo.

Perhaps ligers would also be something to look at. If you feel they fall in the Genesis "kind", and do not pose any problem, then state those that brought about the problem and we can look at them.

The Liturgist · Jun 10, 2023

If people are falsely accusing the SDA of racism, I would be the first to rush to its defense, given SDA efforts at missionary activities around the world, and frankly based on my knowledge of Adventists and their expansion around the world, including proselytzing Orthodox Christians of various ethnicities, which I think they ought not to have done, the idea that the Adventists would prohibit interracial marriage or have any kind of systemic racism seems absurd, so I am fully prepared to defend Adventists from a scurrilous attack on this point, as I hope Adventists would be pre[pared to defend my own church. And the accusation of racism, aside from the case of Uriah Smith, who clearly was a racist, albeit whose views were unfortunately typical of that era (and frankly, King Edward VIII expressed an even more horrid racism towards the Aboriginal Australians, and they paled in comparison of the likes of Hitler, Franco, Mussolini and Salazar, among other racist-fascists, or someone like Louis Farrakhan in the present day).

There are legitimate criticisms of the SDA and of Ellen White but I am not persuaded that this is one of them.

bbbbbbb · Jun 10, 2023

The Liturgist said:
If people are falsely accusing the SDA of racism, I would be the first to rush to its defense, given SDA efforts at missionary activities around the world, and frankly based on my knowledge of Adventists and their expansion around the world, including proselytzing Orthodox Christians of various ethnicities, which I think they ought not to have done, the idea that the Adventists would prohibit interracial marriage or have any kind of systemic racism seems absurd, so I am fully prepared to defend Adventists from a scurrilous attack on this point, as I hope Adventists would be pre[pared to defend my own church. And the accusation of racism, aside from the case of Uriah Smith, who clearly was a racist, albeit whose views were unfortunately typical of that era (and frankly, King Edward VIII expressed an even more horrid racism towards the Aboriginal Australians, and they paled in comparison of the likes of Hitler, Franco, Mussolini and Salazar, among other racist-fascists, or someone like Louis Farrakhan in the present day).

There are legitimate criticisms of the SDA and of Ellen White but I am not persuaded that this is one of them.

I have a good Christian friend who is happily married to a Filipina who is a former SDA. She had no regrets in leaving the SDA.

I will not argue that this issue was a factor in her decision and will leave it at that.

Adventist: amalgamation in CERTAIN races of men.

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