Is it time to stop policing the black community?

hislegacy said:

No, no you and all white people did not. There are changes in the laws benefitting people of all races because white people (the only ones who could vote at the time), chose to change things for the better. We don't have slavery in the US because Republicans (a whole bunch of white people), chose to lay their lives down for freedoms for other races.

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This has nothing to do with what I said in my post.

hislegacy said:

I am not white, I have faced racism (I don't choose to dwell on it), and have found defenders both white and of other races.

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Because you're not white there is no way for you to have firsthand knowledge what it is like to be white. I AM white and I know that racism is systemic in white circles and white culture in America. I know it because I'm white and I live it and experience it. You, not being white, have no way of knowing what my experience as a white person is, except through what you hear from others like me.

hislegacy said:

You cannot summarily condemn and entire race for what some in that race did wrong and horrible things. There is not one race on the earth that does not have slavery and racism in their past.

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Where did I "condemn an entire race"??? You must have misread what I've posted.

hislegacy said:

You know how to tell if someone is racist? (My opinion) A racist focuses solely on race and ignores the quality of the person.

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All people have racist thoughts and behaviors at some point. But the ones who are deservedly given the label "racist" are those who choose to accept their racism is being good or OK. That's how I know what a "racist" is.

OldWiseGuy said:

Who arranges the list?

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Facts and logic dictate the order of lists.

OldWiseGuy said:

I'm suggesting solutions to the disparities between races. Racism is a fact of life that isn't going away.

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You're not suggesting solutions. You're saying "well that's their problem, not mine". I guess you thought Pontius Pilate was "suggesting solutions" when they brought Christ to him for crucifixion and he washed his hands of Christ's fate, saying "not my problem, you deal with it!"

LOL, "solutions"!!!! That's rich!!!

Ana the Ist said:

1. You can't really say what systemic racism is....I can't really be aware of a phenomenon that is undefined.

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I certainy can say what systemic racism is. Whether you choose to believe it or not is your own choice but it is not for lack of definition; you're just fabricating that "undefined" excuse out of thin air.

Ana the Ist said:

2. Does this look like a real solution to you?

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Yes. I already presented it as a solution, so why are you asking?

Ana the Ist said:

It's a problem that requires everyone to agree?

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On what? Where did I say "It's a problem that requires everyone to agree"?

Ana the Ist said:

Since that will never happen nor can we even know if it did....is it fair to say that you have no solutions to this problem you can't define?

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Since you have no proof of your made-up, subjective belief that "that will never happen nor can we even know if it did"...is it fair to say that you have not provided any valid argument against what I had posted?

I provided a solution. You simply stated "that can never happen". So it's my solution vs. your unfounded and biased opinion. I have no reason to accept that your baseless opinion has any validity or truth to it. In fact, since your opinion has nothing backing it up at all I don't consider to have any value at all in regards to what I've said.

It is somewhat disappointing that this discussion has focused exclusively on racism when the OP subject also includes policing. Are black people disproportionally effected by police using lethal force? Is there a racist element to it? Sure, we can talk about that, but it is wrong to neglect the question of the use of lethal force by the police considered apart from race. I don't know the race of the deputies who shot Andrew Brown this week. It doesn't much matter. Brown was black, but that doesn't really matter either. The use of lethal force in that situation was grotesquely wrong and it happens to white people too.

OldWiseGuy said:

White drug users and dealers aren't involved in the horrific level of violence associated with black drug dealing and use. For example white drug dealers don't do drive-by shootings that kill innocent people.

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Pretty sure those don't qualify as "drug crimes" for the purposes of the study.

OldWiseGuy said:

It's on the 'down low', under the radar.

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AAhhhh, I see. . [Translation: "Anytime I don't get what I want it's probably reverse-racism", eh?]

Ken-1122 said:

Blacks are more likely to sell drugs on street corners and in the open, whereas white people are more likely to sell drugs in the privacy of their homes. If you sell in the open, you are more likely to get caught.

Blacks Less Likely To Sell Drugs, Much More Likely To Be Arrested For It: Study | HuffPost

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Doesn't explain why the incarceration percentage of whites relative to blacks is also lower. Of those that are caught, more blacks go to prison than whites.

RocksInMyHead said:

Pretty sure those don't qualify as "drug crimes" for the purposes of the study.

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Probably not. In terms of possession and sale I wonder if some folks think that white college kids don't sell dope. Certainly they possess and use at similar levels. Sentencing is another area that is inherently racist in its outcome. And sentencing can EASILY be put on an "apples-to-apples" compares. And when that is done it is attrociously racist.

EVERY LAST ONE OF US on here did something stupid when we were young. ASTOUNDINGLY stupid. But if we are black the price is infinitely higher.

ArmenianJohn said:

I certainy can say what systemic racism is.

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Go ahead.

Yes. I already presented it as a solution, so why are you asking?

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It's unrealistic. I've never seen everyone agree on anything.

On what? Where did I say "It's a problem that requires everyone to agree"?

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Do you want me to quote you?

To eliminate systemic racism. And that starts with white people all having an awareness that it does exist instead of denying that it exists and choosing to instead blame the victims of what they're perpetuating.

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That's you...that's you saying that all white people need to agree.

On the existence of something that you haven't defined.

We can agree that's not going to happen, right? You'll never get 150+ million people to agree on anything. Even if you could...how would you know?

Your solution is dead before we start.

Oneiric1975 said:

Probably not. In terms of possession and sale I wonder if some folks think that white college kids don't sell dope. Certainly they possess and use at similar levels.

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Use is the only one I've seen studies on.

Where's the study on possession?

EVERY LAST ONE OF US on here did something stupid when we were young. ASTOUNDINGLY stupid. But if we are black the price is infinitely higher.

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Is it?

Ana the Ist said:

Go ahead.
That's you...that's you saying that all white people need to agree.

On the existence of something that you haven't defined.

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OK, let's start from a reasonable place and go with what Derek Johnson of the NAACP defines it as:

"systems and structures that have procedures or processes that disadvantage African Americans."
(Source=Systemic racism: What does it mean and how can you help dismantle it)

Or how about the Wiki definition: “the formalization of a set of institutional, historical, cultural and interpersonal practices within a society that more often than not puts one social or ethnic group in a better position to succeed, and at the same time disadvantages other groups in a consistent and constant manner that disparities develop between the groups over a period of time.”

These are reasonable definitions for the issue. We know the issue exists because we know that there ARE institutional and historical practices which lead to disadvantages for one group vs another. Take for instance sentencing for crimes. Black defendants usually get a much harsher sentence for the same crime a white person commits.

"Across the distribution, blacks receive sentences that are almost 10 percent longer than those of comparable whites arrested for the same crimes." (Source =https://repository.law.umich.edu/cg...eceive,carrying mandatory minimum sen- tences.)

That is just one example. Many others exist.

The key is to drop the whole "feigned confusion" over the phrase that so many on the far Right affect. That will be a HUGE step in the right direction.

Ana the Ist said:

Use is the only one I've seen studies on.

Where's the study on possession?



Is it?

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Studies show.

See above.

Oneiric1975 said:

Disparity in sentencing and prosecutions:
Racial Disparity in Sentencing

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Black and brown people getting harsher sentences than white people is a systemic problem? The question becomes WHY are they getting harsher sentences. Perhaps it’s because whites have more money, and can afford better lawyers; this would make it a financial problem not a systematic one. Or perhaps it’s because racist people in the Judiciary system who are breaking their oath, and the laws of the land in order to be unfair to black and brown people; this would be an example of racist people in positions of power within the system, not a racist system.

In order for systemic racism to exist, the system must be created in such a manner that it will remain racist no matter the persons holding positions within it.
Take your example of the Criminal Justice system for example: If replacing all the people within the criminal justice system with people known to be fair and unbiased would cleanse it of racism, then systemic racism was never an issue; it was just individual racists within the system causing the problem. However if replacing all the people within the system with fair people does not cleanse the system, and it remains racist, then systemic racism does exist.

So when I ask for an example of systemic racism, you need to provide a system (police department, school district, corporation, etc.) that would remain racist even if the people within the system were unbiased and fair.

RocksInMyHead said:

Doesn't explain why the incarceration percentage of whites relative to blacks is also lower. Of those that are caught, more blacks go to prison than whites.

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Whites have more money. The more money you have, the better lawyers you can afford that can get you off

Ken-1122 said:

Whites have more money. The more money you have, the better lawyers you can afford that can get you off

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That's probably part of it. And why do they have more money?

Oneiric1975 said:

OK, let's start from a reasonable place and go with what Derek Johnson of the NAACP defines it as:

"systems and structures that have procedures or processes that disadvantage African Americans."
(Source=Systemic racism: What does it mean and how can you help dismantle it)

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Ok...we're talking about procedures and processes.

Or how about the Wiki definition: “the formalization of a set of institutional, historical, cultural and interpersonal practices within a society that more often than not puts one social or ethnic group in a better position to succeed, and at the same time disadvantages other groups in a consistent and constant manner that disparities develop between the groups over a period of time.”

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Practices...

That's similar to procedures and processes.

The disparity thing is a little troubling....since disparities exist for all sorts of reasons. Let's set that aside for now.

We're talking about racist procedures, processes, or practices within a system.

So when we're talking about the police....and someone says that the police are systemically racist....

It's safe to say they have identified these racist practices and processes and procedures.

What are they? In regards to policing anyway.

Oneiric1975 said:

Studies show.

See above.

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Almost no one is in jail for drug use.

Drug possession and drug selling, drug trafficking, drugging people against their will...

These are things people go to jail for. Drug use is extremely rare as an offense that lands one in jail.

I don't know if I'm more disturbed by the racist premise of this thread to begin with, or that there are 15 pages of people actually trying to engage him on said premise.

OldWiseGuy said:

The point is to end police violence against black people. Many blacks don't accept black cops as 'brother's'.

Equality is a different subject.

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"Brothers"? Do you think all black people are like the characters from Shaft?

OldWiseGuy said:

That's sort of what I'm suggesting as well, that black cops basically ignore law breaking by other blacks.

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I'm not letting this slide like other people did.

What is your evidence that African American cops don't enforce the law against other African Americans? Are you claiming that they all don't do their jobs or are all corrupt?

RocksInMyHead said:

That's probably part of it. And why do they have more money?

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You're asking why some people have more money?

There's a lot of reasons for that.

Ask the asian community why they have more money than the white community.

I don't think they'll claim to be racist against white people.